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6.5 CM load development - Satterlee or something else

LR-Shooter

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 27, 2008
248
32
Idaho
I have never tried the 10 round ladder test until now and want to know what you all think or if it is best to mix the Satterlee (for a place to start) with traditional load development. Honestly I am surprised by how my rifle (Tikka 6.5 CM CTR) shot this. I also did not have any pressure signs and the primer looked the same from 40.6 to 42.4 grains. I plan on loading another 5 rounds from 42.4 to 43.2 and of course stop when I find the pressure signs. Then figure out where I should load for a 5 round test. I would like to get 2750 to 2800 FPS with the 140 if possible and maintain accuracy and low SD numbers. What would you guys do next with this data? I will also do this with the 130 gr hybrid.

Load:
once fired Hornady match brass
Berger 140 hybrid target
GM210M primer
H4350
OAL 2.800

Grains - Speed
42.4 - 2721
42.2 - 2702
42 - 2673
41.8 - 2680
41.6 - 2685
41.4 - 2639
41.2 - 2629
41 - 2647
40.8 - 2614
40.6 - 2587

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The lower shot was cold bore with 40.6 grains, the rest went into one hole working up from the bottom. All well under an inch from 40.8 to 42.4 grains. Kinda shocked me.
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Looks like its shooting well, but I would not pick a load based off of velocities obtained from firing one round of a particular powder charge.

Looks like you are a good ways from your velocity goal with the 140.

If it were me, I'd load 4 or 5 rounds of each charge from data points 6, 7, and 8 and repeat the test on a target at 4-500 yards, and/or with a chrono.
 
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What I was thinking is add to data from the next 5 shots and if there is another flat node load up a couple 5 round groups around that and shoot them to see whats up. Not really trying to find one load of grain weight and base off that, just trying to find a stable pressure zone and load in the middle of that.
 
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What I was thinking is add to data from the next 5 shots and if there is another flat node load up a couple 5 round groups around that and shoot them to see whats up. Not really trying to find one load of grain weight and base of that, just trying to find a stable pressure zone and load in the middle of that.
That sounds good if you aren't getting any pressure signs.

I've tried the 1 round per charge speed node test in the past, and I feel its only useful if your reloading process is dead nuts
 
Just my opinion but I have used the 10 round chrono data approach many times but my personal method may vary.somewhat.
I only go this approach when using high quality brass with a very low deviation in average weight and internal volume and generally they are also neck turned to eliminate even more variation and only on second firing.
Is all that neccesary I really don't know but it has worked very well for me.
Otherwise I would atleast recommend doubling you sample size for best results, some of the more experienced gents on here may disagree but I'm just saying what works for me and what I have come to trust in almost 30 years of reloading.
 
What I was thinking is add to data from the next 5 shots and if there is another flat node load up a couple 5 round groups around that and shoot them to see whats up. Not really trying to find one load of grain weight and base of that, just trying to find a stable pressure zone and load in the middle of that.

That was kind of my point but not all barrels or calibers respond the same depending on powder burn rates, barrel length, barrel profile and all ofnthe other things a noob like me can't account for.
That's what is great about this site there is allways someone or a whole group that you can learn something new from up until your heart stops beating.
Allways learning
 
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I think this rifle is just going to shoot anything I load well, thought I would try something new for load developement. Seems the satterlee method ins't as popular as the vids on youtube make it out to be. I hope to get the 140's figured out this weekend and try out the 130's. My rifle shot the factory ELD-M 140's and 147's into 3/8ths groups. Nice to not have a picky riflle for once. I also have a tikka ctr in 223 and so far it also shoots the 77's with CFE into small groups as well. These Tikka's impress me.
 
I think this rifle is just going to shoot anything I load well, thought I would try something new for load developement. Seems the satterlee method ins't as popular as the vids on youtube make it out to be. I hope to get the 140's figured out this weekend and try out the 130's. My rifle shot the factory ELD-M 140's and 147's into 3/8ths groups. Nice to not have a picky riflle for once. I also have a tikka ctr in 223 and so far it also shoots the 77's with CFE into small groups as well. These Tikka's impress me.

My first one and only 6.5CM has behaved somewhat orderly other than the fact that I'm used to rifles with more recoil and had to somewhat relearn how to shoot it if that makes any sense.
I was trying to hard initially to steer the rifle and it was hurting me accuracy wise, that might mean that i was never doing things right to begin with but I never had a real teacher.
The 6.5 CM running à 147eldm at 2740 doesn't feel any different to me than my old faithful 308win running a 178amax at 2650 but the recoil impulse definitely does.
 
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i would load charges from 41 to 43 in .3 increments. 3 shots at each charge weight. get the chrono results and then refine from there. Youll probably see a node around 41.3 and 42.4. Dont know about Tikkas, but that barrel seems a little slow. I get around 2780 with that same 41.4 load.
 
My first one and only 6.5CM has behaved somewhat orderly other than the fact that I'm used to rifles with more recoil and had to somewhat relearn how to shoot it if that makes any sense.
I was trying to hard initially to steer the rifle and it was hurting me accuracy wise, that might mean that i was never doing things right to begin with but I never had a real teacher.
The 6.5 CM running à 147eldm at 2740 doesn't feel any different to me than my old faithful 308win running a 178amax at 2650 but the recoil impulse definitely does.

I agree about learning the recoil. I helped a friend get his new tikka in 7mm RM sighted in today and fired it a few times and definetely did not do as well. I found my self holding it much more firm and induced micro movements in it.

i would load charges from 41 to 43 in .3 increments. 3 shots at each charge weight. get the chrono results and then refine from there. Youll probably see a node around 41.3 and 42.4. Dont know about Tikkas, but that barrel seems a little slow. I get around 2780 with that same 41.4 load.

I agree. I watched Lowlight's video on the TAC A1 and when he switched to a new barrel he was getting something like a 100 FPS more with the same rounds. The Tikka still grouped very well just ran slow.
 
I would load a few each at charges number 6-8. See which one gives your best SD and ES. Then I would play with seating depth if necessary. I don’t know this to be true from personal experience but I have heard many say that their factory Tikka barrels were accurate but slow. Yours seems to follow this theory.
 
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I agree about learning the recoil. I helped a friend get his new tikka in 7mm RM sighted in today and fired it a few times and definetely did not do as well. I found my self holding it much more firm and induced micro movements in it.



I agree. I watched Lowlight's video on the TAC A1 and when he switched to a new barrel he was getting something like a 100 FPS more with the same rounds. The Tikka still grouped very well just ran slow.

I agree with you on learning recoil as I have allways shot 30 cal rifles since I was a teenager and leaned that recoil impulse it was ingrained.
I never shot rifles that had a muzzle brake either and they defiantly handle much differently although I did use my dads 6.5x55 but it was a light hunting rifle and didn't feel much different.
 
My sweet spot for the 140 ELDM is 41.9gr H4350 which gives 2855fps. I know quit a few others who hover around same load. Cheers
 
IMO, the "Satterlee method" is garbage, and it's growing popularity has been pretty detrimental to reloaders, mostly newer reloaders that don't understand any better (no offense meant to anyone, I was one of them). Also, if you don't want to read all of this, at least read the bold part at the bottom.

I get it, it's convenient. 10 shots and you are supposedly done. When I first started reloading, I went to the "Satterlee method" as it sounded easy and convenient, and a lot of shooters talked about it and praised it. I did it for about ~2 years, my first 2 years or so of reloading. I used a Forster Co-Ax press, a combo of Redding and Whidden dies, and an autotrickler setup, which I was meticulous about. I also have an AMP annealer, and a Giraud trimmer. So all top notch equipment.

During the last year of performing this method, I would load up two identical ladders, out of curiosity, and to see how consistent my results were. The majority of my tests were done with 6.5 Creedmoor, but I did some with .300NM and possibly 6BRA as well. What I noticed, was that I never had two side by side ladders that consistently replicated a so-called "node". Not one. This was over numerous tests, and I realized that the sample size of one shot per charge weight is statistically irrelevant, which is why it was producing inconsistent results. My college statistics teacher would've slapped me if he knew how much time I was wasting on this reloading method.

Since changing my process, my SD's and ES's have gone down, and none of my current loads would've been identified by the "Satterlee method", unless by pure coincidence and chance. On my last outing, 10 shots over the chrono resulting in an SD of 3, and 36 shots resulting in an SD of 4.8.

10 shots is statistically irrelevant. The only thing that ladder is good for is to tell you approximate velocity per charge weight, and to help you find where pressure signs start at. It takes a bit more work to find a nice SD/ES pocket, in which you are going to want at least 5 rounds of each charge weight.

For me, I use a ladder for finding velocities and where pressure starts. With previous experience, I know what the velocities certain projectiles seem to like out of certain barrel lengths. For 6.5 Creedmoor with a 24" barrel for example, shooting 140's, I've found 2830 fps to be a good sweet spot. I'll then look at the ladder I shot, and load up 5 rounds of incremental 0.2 grain charge weights on and on either side of 2830 fps, to see what results in the best ES/SD for my specific primer/powder/projectile/brass is. Precision is dialed in with bullet seating depth tests, I use Berger Hybrids for every cartridge which makes it easy, I've found they generally like to jump 10 or 20 thou.

Reloading isn't that difficult, especially if you start with good quality components and reloading equipment. Lapua brass and Berger bullets make reloading easy, I use those components for every cartridge I shoot and reload for. Listen to the Every Day Sniper podcast where Frank has the Applied Ballistic guys on, they do two episodes on reloading, and they are worth every second. Next, listen to @BLKWLFK9's Just F'in Send It podcast Episode 25 with Erik Cortina, and check out Erik's resources (Youtube, Patreon).

There's too many myths and BS surrounding reloading. Some people try to make some things too simple (ALA "Satterlee Method"), and others try to make it out to be a process like trying to summon a demon spirit on the 4th blood moon of the year of the dog. Reloading is pretty easy with the right components and equipment, but you have to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. The two resources in bold do exactly that.
 
Thanks for your input. I am going to do it as you described. Doesn't help that my numbers are lower then whats seems to be the standard but once I shoot out my barrel I will put a better one on. For now I do enjoy the accuracy and consistency I have been getting. Very good information!

Thanks
 
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Satterlee, Speed node.
Both do the same thing, your looking for the flat spot and/or an ES trend, but both require consistent brass prep and powder throws.
I’m honest when I say I couldn’t get anything from these tests years ago because my load skills weren’t up to snuff to utilize such a method.
1 shot doesn’t tell a lot but can certainly show a trend, same with 3 or 5 shots.
10-20 shots are used to confirm a trend.

41.8-41.9 is a common 6.5CM load and your test kinda shows why, I’d load 10 of them to confirm then do a jump test to tune in group size.

It’s a Tikka barrel, they’ve famous for being slow.
 
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What kind of shooting are you doing?
 
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My 6.5 is a range toy and shooting out to 550 at the club but will be going to find a good spot on BLM land and shoot much further. I don't compete just shoot for fun.

If you have a scale that’s measuring down to about a kernel and a good chrono, you should be able to load just about any speed you want to without getting into the weeds too much with the load development.

For example, I can take pretty much any rifle of mine, load any random charge, chrono it, and take it to 1k and hold an moa or less.

Modern scales have let us control the powder charge good enough that we will have acceptable ES for any practical size target.
 
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I’m in the same boat as Kthomas. I tried the Satterlee method a few times but 1 round doesn’t give anything but speed.

I use to spend a lot of rounds trying to dial in a load. Now I try and be more proficient and don’t chase my ass on load process.

what I do is load up 3 round groups every .2 grains and fire them. that’s enough for me to get a good average, see where a potential flat spot is, and also check for similar POI. From there I can fine tune it.

as far as you 6.5CM. Having shot out quite a few 6.5 barrels over the years and the 140hybrids being my go to butler I can tell you that you’re going to want to look between 42-43 grains of H4350. Ive developed loads for a dozen or so barrels and they’ve all been right in there with my Lowe’s being 42.2 and my highest of 42.7.
 
If you have a scale that’s measuring down to about a kernel and a good chrono, you should be able to load just about any speed you want to without getting into the weeds too much with the load development.

For example, I can take pretty much any rifle of mine, load any random charge, chrono it, and take it to 1k and hold an moa or less.

Modern scales have let us control the powder charge good enough that we will have acceptable ES for any practical size target.

On top of that, quality components make it easy as well. For me that means Lapua brass and Berger hybrid projectiles.

Those two brands make it easy. When I deviate from those brands, that's when life gets more difficult in the reloading room, even with a quality scale and other quality equipment.

Make it easy on yourself, and spend the money on quality components and equipment. It's almost hard to not have good reloads when you are reloading quality components on quality reloading equipment.
 
My reloading equipment

Forster Co-Ax
Rredding Type-S Match set (.288 bushing)
RCBS Chargemaster 1500 Dispenser and Scale
Lee case trimmer
RCBS neck turner (haven't used it yet though)

Decent stuff but getting all the rest is like buying snapon tools, expensive as hell ie... annealer, power case trimmer etc...
 
I think this rifle is just going to shoot anything I load well, thought I would try something new for load developement. Seems the satterlee method ins't as popular as the vids on youtube make it out to be.

FYI, Scott Satterlee doesn't even really use the "Satterlee" method anymore lol. Even guys at the top of their game change over time. If you listen to the Modern Day Sniper podcast with him on it, he talks about what he does now, and how he's changed his load development and what not. Very interesting podcast.

Try not to over think everything. I'd pick something in that 41.5-42 range and run a seating depth test, then load up as many rounds as you have brass and have fun. I definitely over thought when I first did my load for my 6.5.

You can also reserve 50 cases and play around with other combos, but I hate not having a tried and true load ready to go. My go to load right now is 41.8gr H4350 under 147's. I just finally got true dope on it out to a 1000yds the other weekend, and even hit the mile gong. I keep 50 cases back, and I'll be playing around with the 147's and 140 hybrids with H4350 and RL26, etc.
 
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I don't know about Tiki's. One thing I learned ,at least with my new 6.5 barrel after about 200 or so rounds it speeds up.
Just a observation. Also if it was me I'd use Lapua Brass with the small primer pocket.
 
I don't know about Tiki's. One thing I learned ,at least with my new 6.5 barrel after about 200 or so rounds it speeds up.
Just a observation. Also if it was me I'd use Lapua Brass with the small primer pocket.

I have about 160 rounds through mine, soon as I can swing picking up some lapua brass I will get the small primer ones. I have equal amount of small and large primers so if all my brass uses small it will be going through them quick. Hopefully we can get primers again within 6 months.
 
Ya it's crazy now trying to find stuff, Now my feeling is if I see it buy it when it comes to Powder and primers. 6.5 bullets haven't been too bad. If you like higher velocities try Reloader 16 instead of H4350. Typically you'll pick up a good bit of speed.
 
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