6.5 Creed - 147 grain - is it safe to fire new brass with 0.004 neck tenshio

[harry_x1]

I just got a new set of lapua brass (6.5c small primer). The shoulder is already perfect for my chamber however the new brass has 0.004 neck tension. I have a match this weekend and no way to expand and then Correct neck tension to 0.002 inch (what most people recommend and I ussually fire). My questions are:

1) is it ok/safe to have a neck tension of 0.004 inch for 6.5c?
2) what effects I should expect at this high a neck tension on MV.

PowderH4350 (43.4 grains).

Thanks for your assistance !

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

1. Yes provided you worked up a load with that same neck tension.
2. Not sure it’s even predictable

Your best bet is to drop your charge weight and slowly work back up.

More neck tension is going to increase pressures.

If time is a constraint you can’t deal with before the match, use your old brass.

 

[Bacarrat]

43.4 grain of H4350 with the 147gr? That a thermonuclear load. lol I use to run a 43.3 load and brass didn't last long.

 

[harry_x1]

43.4 grain of H4350 with the 147gr? That a thermonuclear load. lol I use to run a 43.3 load and brass didn't last long.

thanks for calling that out...what grain weight did you eventually settled at?...thanks

 

[Bacarrat]

Most people are in the 41-42gr range at the top end for that powder and bullet combo. You will have to see what your gun likes, but 43.4 grains with the 147s is 100% going to tear some shit up.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Expanding the necks shouldn't take but a few minutes if you haven't charged yet.

 

[918v]

I just got a new set of lapua brass (6.5c small primer). The shoulder is already perfect for my chamber however the new brass has 0.004 neck tension. I have a match this weekend and no way to expand and then Correct neck tension to 0.002 inch (what most people recommend and I ussually fire). My questions are:

1) is it ok/safe to have a neck tension of 0.004 inch for 6.5c?
2) what effects I should expect at this high a neck tension on MV.

PowderH4350 (43.4 grains).

Thanks for your assistance !

How did you come up on that load??? Do you have a magic rifle?

 

[Hickswr]

Sounds like you need to skip the match and read a reloading manual this weekend before you kill yourself or someone else.

Note- if a neck tension increase of 0.002 causes safety concerns, you already had safety concerns.

 

[NH4X]

Can't believe this thread hasn't turned into a Bear Pit pee pee stomp........yet.

OP, as has been suggested, acquire a loading manual and.............READ IT

Edit : It would be interesting to see Q Load's numbers of that load........everyone care to run the numbers ?

 

[Supersubes]

Aside from the fact you're shooting a nuclear charge weight, why/how could you settle for the neck tension? The necks are poorly chamfered and dented to shit out of the box. This is what expander mandrels are for.

 

[Bacarrat]

Can't believe this thread hasn't turned into a Bear Pit pee pee stomp........yet.

OP, as has been suggested, acquire a loading manual and.............READ IT

Edit : It would be interesting to see Q Load's numbers of that load........everyone care to run the numbers ?

00.0 109 43.40 2831 2615 73444 9369 99.9 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[Supersubes]

00.0 109 43.40 2831 2615 73444 9369 99.9 1.133 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

So what you’re saying is he should add a grain to bump it up to 80 K, after all, this is Snipers Hide.

 

[NH4X]

So what you’re saying is he should add a grain to bump it up to 80 K, after all, this is Snipers Hide.

I was WAGing 76,000 psi

 

[918v]

Maybe his chamber is honed out to XXL?

 

[longrange772]

I believe the Hornady app shows 40.3 gr max for h4350.

 

[nn8734]

I was running 42.5g H4350 with a 130 berger in lapual SRP brass and fed 210M-AR primers and that load bordered on toasty.

43.3g with a 147?

 

[Bacarrat]

I have run loads that hot before, but it was with 140gr ELDM, , but the chamber was cut way long, and it still killed the brass. Cycled perfectly out of my AW though.

 

[longrange772]

Trying to make his 6.5 CM a 6.5 PRC.

 

[harry_x1]

Rifle is a Zermatt Arms TL3, PVA 18inch 1:8 twist barrell. I loaded 3 rounds each with below details:

1. 3 Rounds with 43.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2715 fps with 6 SD, 0.5 MOA

2. 3 rounds with 41.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2596 fps with 7 SD, 0.3 MOA

Please have a look at attached pictured and let me know if you see any pressure signs. Did not experience any heavy bolt lift. With these results, I am contemplating further reduction in charge weight. But will be great if people can give me some idea on how hot load 2 (41.4 grain) looks like.

thanks for all the help

 

[spife7980]

Pressure signs clear as day.

See the rectangles and scratches from where it was swelled against the bolt face while it was rotating behind it to unlock and extract?

Less on the 41 but still present.

Read this

Understanding Pressure :: Primal Rights, Inc

Reading pressure is a required skill that all shooters must have. Whether you are shooting factory ammunition or your own handloads, you absolutely must be able to detect and interpret pressure signs on your fired brass.

www.primalrights.com

 

[Supersubes]

Pressure signs clear as day.

See the rectangles and scratches from where it was swelled against the bolt face while it was rotating behind it to unlock and extract?
View attachment 8000514
Less on the 41 but still present.
View attachment 8000515

Read this

Understanding Pressure :: Primal Rights, Inc

Reading pressure is a required skill that all shooters must have. Whether you are shooting factory ammunition or your own handloads, you absolutely must be able to detect and interpret pressure signs on your fired brass.

www.primalrights.com

A testament to how burly small primer lapua case heads are. If he had a 24” barrel, the 43.4 load would be going 2875-2900 fps.


@harry_x1 you recently asked about pressure in your 338lm, which had some pretty obvious pressure signs as well. Since a TL-3 lacks a plunger ejector, opening on a safe pressure load should feel like cocking effort only, and nothing more. Perhaps what we call a sticky bolt, you recognize as normal bolt lift because you're always way over pressure? Just a thought. That 43.4 load in domestic brass probably would have blown the primer out.

 

[nn8734]

A testament to how burly small primer lapua case heads are. If he had a 24” barrel, the 43.4 load would be going 2875-2900 fps.


@harry_x1 you recently asked about pressure in your 338lm, which had some pretty obvious pressure as well. Since a TL-3 lacks a plunger ejector, opening on a safe pressure load should feel like cocking effort only, and nothing more. Perhaps what we call a sticky bolt, you recognize as normal bolt lift because you're always way over pressure? Just a thought. That 43.4 load in domestic brass probably would have blown the primer out.

His problems with overpressure won’t stop until he ceases using a front end loader or excavator to charge his cases.

 

[Supersubes]

His problems with overpressure won’t stop until he ceases using a front end loader or excavator to charge his cases.

Or until he stops getting his load data off the hide.

 

[nn8734]

Or until he stops getting his load data off the hide.

Someone on here told him to stuff 43 and a half grains of H4350 and a 147 eldm into a case?

Im literally imagining him sitting in a loader, dumping a bucket full of powder over a bunch of cases, seating the bullets with a 50 ton commercial hydraulic shop press then lighting them all off at the range like its New Year’s Eve.

After which he comes on here asking about whether or not the brass shows some signs of pressure and informing us that he’ll ensure his “neck tension” is the proper .002 next time because that’s what’s important in this case.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Do we dare ask what happen to the old set of Lapua brass?

 

[Supersubes]

Someone on here told him to stuff 43 and a half grains of H4350 and a 147 eldm into a case?

Im literally imagining him sitting in a loader, dumping a bucket full of powder over a bunch of cases, seating the bullets with a 50 ton commercial hydraulic shop press then lighting them all off at the range like its New Year’s Eve.

After which he comes on here asking about whether or not the brass shows some signs of pressure and informing us that he’ll ensure his “neck tension” is the proper .002 next time because that’s what’s important in this case.

Just scroll the loading threads, there’s tons of ridiculous loads in there “no pressure signs at all”. Translation: Look Ma, I didn't need a hammer to open the bolt this time!

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Honestly I run all new brass through a neck bushing and mandrel because the case mouths are usually dinged and or misshapen . they also usually need a chamfer/debur.

 

[Im2bent]

@harry_x1 hmmm is this you at the reloading bench?

It's good that you are asking questions and can take a joke or two.

 

[nn8734]

Just scroll the loading threads, there’s tons of ridiculous loads in there “no pressure signs at all”. Translation: Look Ma, I didn't need a hammer to open the bolt this time!

Looked at a few pages of that 6.5 creed reloading data sticky thread and there’s a few hot looking recipes in there. Many don’t mention the brass used…I wonder if the OP knows not all brass is created equal, case-capacity wise and implications for load work up.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If it were me, I'd back it down to 40 gr and buy a PRC with what you'll save on medical bills; YMMV.

 

[cbccadet2002]

This was with my new lapua srp h2o capacity of 51.78. 18" barrel input(short imo). 2.840"coal. 1.914 case length.....

Proceed with caution!! ****FOR REFERENCE ONLY***

 

[wade2big]

Rifle is a Zermatt Arms TL3, PVA 18inch 1:8 twist barrell. I loaded 3 rounds each with below details:

1. 3 Rounds with 43.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2715 fps with 6 SD, 0.5 MOA

2. 3 rounds with 41.4 grain H4350, 147 grain eldm, neck tension 0.004". Achieved MV 2596 fps with 7 SD, 0.3 MOA

Please have a look at attached pictured and let me know if you see any pressure signs. Did not experience any heavy bolt lift. With these results, I am contemplating further reduction in charge weight. But will be great if people can give me some idea on how hot load 2 (41.4 grain) looks like.

thanks for all the help

You are getting the same velocity with your 18” that I get with my 26” with a 147gr eldm. Interesting.

 

[cbccadet2002]

26"barrel... Proceed With Cation... ***FOR REFERENCE ONLY***

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I was running 42.5g H4350 with a 130 berger in lapual SRP brass and fed 210M-AR primers and that load bordered on toasty.

43.3g with a 147?
View attachment 8000416

Yeah I ran 42.65 with lapua and a 130 otm bullet and it's warm, not HOT but it's warm. Wow @ 43.4 with a 147 gr bullet.

Glad OP got some advice and is going to be good now.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Cant wait to see the next thread.

"How many reloads are you getting from 6.5CM Lapua brass??"

 

[harry_x1]

You are getting the same velocity with your 18” that I get with my 26” with a 147gr eldm. Interesting.

that is the question now haunting me..why is my 41.4 grain load giving me 2596 fps? I have good enough headspace and distance from lands. I suspect this could be due to higher neck tension.

 

[Yondering]

View attachment 8000749


26"barrel... Proceed With Cation... ***FOR ENTERTAINMENT ONLY***

Fixed it for you.

Some of you guys place WAY too much faith in Quickload, and seem to have no idea how far wrong it can be, or how much correlation you need to do for reasonably accurate predictions even within a very narrow band of variation.

And it is NOT data. It's just predictions based on a bunch of estimations about the factors that affect internal ballistics, which should be specific to your barrel and components. Lots of estimations = lots of room to go wrong.

Just because you can calculate some numbers doesn't mean they are good numbers.

 

[Yondering]

that is the question now haunting me..why is my 41.4 grain load giving me 2596 fps? I have good enough headspace and distance from lands. I suspect this could be due to higher neck tension.

I suspect you've ignored the very good advice given to you - that you need to go read a reloading manual. Not just the part with the data in it, but the first half of the book that talks about how to reload and good practices.

All of your comments in these threads indicate that you have very little understanding of the relationships between different factors and the effects each have. What you're doing is dangerous.


Besides, how is it that you "normally use .002" neck tension" but don't have the equipment to set your new brass that way? That sounds like you think you're doing something (.002" neck tension) that you're not actually doing.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Neck tension isn't the cause of your lower than expected velocity.


The first thing you need to do is to stop reloading until you understand what you're doing and why you're doing it.

As suggested, go and buy the Hornady reloading manual and read it all the way up to the first data pages on the 17 calibers.

STOP THERE.

Now, go back and read it again and again until you have an understanding of the hows and whys.

Once you've done that, pick up that Lapua Small Rifle primed brass you've shot and take a good look at it.

@spife7980 already pointed out the over-pressure signs on your brass. I'll add in that you're also getting cratered primers with a small firing pin and small rifle primers, using an action that normally will not show that sign until you are well into the DANGER ZONE.



Here's my take:
Some barrels are just faster than others. You're unhappy with the velocity you're getting, so you decide to try and turn your 6.5 Creedmoor into a 6.5 PRC by over-stuffing it with powder.

You're gonna get hurt. Or worse, you'll hurt someone next to you when you eventually blow that rifle up.

If you want PRC performance, then buy a PRC, don't try to make a cartridge that's designed to operate at 2650 into a 2800fps cartridge.

If you want free velocity, use a 28"-30" barrel like the F-class Shooter's do.


You're hung up on neck tension for some unknown reason.
Probably from watching too many EweToob videos or reading too much shit on the internet.

Go back to the basics and proceed like that until you have a thorough understanding of WHAT you're doing, and WHY you're doing it.

When it comes to powder charges, you work UPWARDS, not down.
Working upwards, you can see the velocity increases as the charge goes up. Along with that, as pressure signs begin to appear, your bolt lift increases. This is where you should stop because you're already over that 62,000 psi limit.

^^^^^ Read that again.
You're OVER the limit when you begin feeling the extra energy to lift the bolt.

 

[Haney]

I just got a new set of lapua brass (6.5c small primer). The shoulder is already perfect for my chamber however the new brass has 0.004 neck tension. I have a match this weekend and no way to expand and then Correct neck tension to 0.002 inch (what most people recommend and I ussually fire). My questions are:

1) is it ok/safe to have a neck tension of 0.004 inch for 6.5c?
2) what effects I should expect at this high a neck tension on MV.

PowderH4350 (43.4 grains).

Thanks for your assistance !

 

[ITR_98_111]

As others have said, neck tension isn’t your issue. Understanding barrel length and bullet weight is going to be key here.

6.5 Creedmoor- Effect of Barrel Length on Velocity: Cutting up a Creedmoor!

Since its introduction by Hornady in 2007, the 6.5 Creedmoor (sometimes shortened to Creed) has established a strong foothold in the US rifle market. The 6.5 Creedmoor balances the excellent exter…

rifleshooter.com

Notice how the difference in 120gr and 142gr bullets is 300fps! You’re apparently loading 147s and expecting 140gr velocities and then comparing an 18” barrel to a 24-28” that others shoot (that’s going to take off another 100-130 fps).

Larger bullets take up more case volume as they are pressed further into the case, thus lower case capacity and will be loaded lighter. So with the 147s and an 18 barrel, you’ll likely be running 2500-2550fps - not to be compared to my 2690fps with 140s, 26” barrel and suppressor (which I load at 38.6gr) and probably have 20k less psi than your load. If you want a faster round, then get a longer barrel or run a lighter bullet

I repeat - with the 147s and an 18 barrel, you’ll likely be running 2500-2550fps

 

[Mike Casselton]

View attachment 8000874

OP,
Note the barrel length used to achieve the velocity in the screen shot. Also, note the powder charge that gives 61,000PSI.

Once you exceed safe levels, the pressure doesn't go up smoothly and predictably.
It will spike quickly. In a cartridge the size of the CM, you go from safe pressure into proof pressure levels with a couple more of grains of powder.

Proof loads are used to test the strength and safety of a firearm, they are not for continual use.
Proof loads are used under very tightly controlled conditions in a room designed to contain a possible grenading of the firearm.

Stop. Take a breath and go back to learning before you hurt yourself.

 

[harry_x1]

Cant wait to see the next thread.

"How many reloads are you getting from 6.5CM Lapua brass??"

Fairly new to 6.5c reloading, time will tell...seems like not many, unless I course correct.

 

[harry_x1]

@harry_x1 hmmm is this you at the reloading bench? View attachment 8000612
It's good that you are asking questions and can take a joke or two.

lol...this had me cracking. Not very far away from reality.

 

[clcustom1911]

thanks for calling that out...what grain weight did you eventually settled at?...thanks

41.5 is my Go to with 140, 142, 147gr bullets. Should get you about 2700-ish out of a 24" barrel. AND 41.5 +/- 0.3gr is pretty much a "standard" load of H4350 with 139-147gr bullets in a 6.5 creed.


ETA, yeah, with your 18" barrel will likely be in the mid-hugh 2500's.

 

[harry_x1]

View attachment 8000749


26"barrel... Proceed With Cation... ***FOR REFERENCE ONLY***

Thanks for sharing this. Couple of clarifications 1) why are these numbers diff from the chart you shared earlier. The MV numbers in this chart match more closely to what I am seeing in my reloads 2) I have bought down my charge to 41.2 grain. Based on this chart, I should expect close to 59k psi. How do I check if that is safe amount of pressure.

@Mike Casselton : request pitch in as well. thanks

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The brass/primer and the bolt lift is going to be your biggest tells. There's some disagreement on some aspects of primers and what is and what isn't excessive pressure, but if you pay attention to your bolt lift you will get to where you know with a TL3, and you will also get to know what your brass looks like on a known safe load, then be able to see the brass show more and more pressure.

 

[Islas82]

I literally just came in from the garage where am loading 147s with 39.7 of IMR 4350 to get 2750fps and now I feel like a bitch. I think my load for H4350 was 39.5 on a 26” proof barrel.

 

[Bacarrat]

I literally just came in from the garage where am loading 147s with 39.7 of IMR 4350 to get 2750fps and now I feel like a bitch. I think my load for H4350 was 39.5 on a 26” proof barrel.

That's very un SH like. We like to start off with Thermonuclear loads. Then we move onto loads that can start solar fusion. I'm currently working on loads that can cause supernovas. People say I couldn't make a 6.5CM shoot as fast a 26 Nosler, I'm going to prove them wrong!

 

[Mike Casselton]

Thanks for sharing this. Couple of clarifications 1) why are these numbers diff from the chart you shared earlier. The MV numbers in this chart match more closely to what I am seeing in my reloads 2) I have bought down my charge to 41.2 grain. Based on this chart, I should expect close to 59k psi. How do I check if that is safe amount of pressure.

@Mike Casselton : request pitch in as well. thanks

There are so many different things that can cause different pressure readings, but I'll try and touch on a few for entertainment purposes.

1. Brass brand and the weight of the brass.
Hornady has two distinctly different weights of 6.5 CM brass. IIRC, its about 7-8gr difference.

2. Primer type, brand and specific primers within that brand. CCI 400 vs 450 for example.

3. Projectile used and the shape of that projectile relative to bearing surface. Also add in if the bullet is cup and core vs monolithic.

4. Ambient temperature.

5. Ammunition temperature. Yes, we had to test our ammo at temperature extremes (hot and cold) to be within SAAMI specifications.

6. Number of firings on brass. Yes, it work hardens and it will not show pressure signs as well once it starts to harden.

7. Brass length at the neck. If it's too long, it will pinch the projectile when it's chambered and spike pressures. Some cartridges you can actually feel when the case mouth contacts the end of the chamber.

8. Seating depth.

9. Chamber freebore.

10. The leade angle of the throat.

11. Relative humidity. We're talking extremes here where you can feel the moisture on the brass. For some reason, it'll cause a lot of cracked necks. I've tested this on multiple occasions, and a simple wipe with a dry towel will eliminate it. (Yaaaay, for living in Florida)

12. Barrel cleanliness with respect to carbon rings.
Carbon rings will increase pressure by a large margin.

13. Barrel/chamber temperature.

14. Powder charge and the type of powder used.

15. The type of powder must be correct with respect to the cartridge and bullet weight being used. Take the time to look at some manufacturers load data.
If you pay attention, you might notice powder A is good up to 130gr bullets, but there is no data for heavier projectiles.

You might also see that powder B is only good for 130gr to 154gr.

Powder C might work with all weights, but not be the best for accuracy.

Powder D might be the best with accuracy, but not give the highest velocity.

You as the handloader need to decide which things are most important.

For me, primary importance is SAFETY.

Second is accuracy and reliability.

Velocity comes in a distant 3rd place.

Take your shooting app/calculator and enter your longest distance you shoot.

Zero wind for conversation sake.

Then, write down your come up for that distance.
Now, drop your velocity by 100fps and write that come up right next to it.

Drop it another 100.

Play around with those numbers and you'll see that it's not that big of a deal.
What is a big deal is accuracy and reliability.

Here's some screen shots of a 7-STW shooting a 190 A-Tip at a 1-Mile target.
I start the velocity at 3020, then drop it to 2920, then 2820 just to show how small the effect is, even at a mile.

I don't know what distances you shoot, but 200fps slower is only 3 Mils at a mile.

If you're shooting PRS distances, I'd bet that 200fps would be around 1.5 Mil.