cool thanks, well if it is a bad batch mine dont match yours
- Thread starter ckhouser
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Has anybody weighed the 153 Atip and measured base to ogive to check for consistency? Shot most of my first batch of 100 already, but will check later today and report back. Have to say they shot really well. Still messing with load development, and need to get the speed up another 100-120 fps via a better choice of powder.
The 147 ELDM has almost the same G7 BC as the 153 Atip, and is half the price ($39 vs $79 on Midway) but in my limited experience base-to-ogive varied too much in the same batch of ELDM’s. Saw differences of around 0.007” if i recall correctly. Looked like the bullets came off two different production lines: One group had a pretty tight range (1-2 thou), with another tightly spaced group 7 thou longer. I only have one batch of 147’s, so cannot comment on batch-to-batch variability, but some of my friends have complained about that too. Sorted one box of 100 ELDM’s based on ogive measurement, but it is such a pain that i gave up on that. Worse idea than sorting primers!
So it comes down to this: Is it worth spending $40 per box of 100 to pay someone else to sort your bullets.... 40 cents extra per bullet?
I guess the claimed BC consistency is the entire reason why the Atip exists, and it would be good to get confirmation that it indeed has better dimensional conformity and a narrower weight range.
The 147 ELDM has almost the same G7 BC as the 153 Atip, and is half the price ($39 vs $79 on Midway) but in my limited experience base-to-ogive varied too much in the same batch of ELDM’s. Saw differences of around 0.007” if i recall correctly. Looked like the bullets came off two different production lines: One group had a pretty tight range (1-2 thou), with another tightly spaced group 7 thou longer. I only have one batch of 147’s, so cannot comment on batch-to-batch variability, but some of my friends have complained about that too. Sorted one box of 100 ELDM’s based on ogive measurement, but it is such a pain that i gave up on that. Worse idea than sorting primers!
So it comes down to this: Is it worth spending $40 per box of 100 to pay someone else to sort your bullets.... 40 cents extra per bullet?I guess the claimed BC consistency is the entire reason why the Atip exists, and it would be good to get confirmation that it indeed has better dimensional conformity and a narrower weight range.
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Just a side comment on blowing up thin jacketed bullets at high speed:
Accidentally stumbled on this comment from John Whidden:
“Importantly, John explained that it takes the right hardware to run the heavy 6mm bullets at high velocities. Bullet blow-up is a risk. John told us: “At the velocities I’m running the 105gr VLDs in the 243s, barrel brand selection is really important. You absolutely have to shoot a barrel that is easy on bullets to run these velocities. To avoid bullet blow-ups at these speeds, you can’t shoot barrels that have the tallest and sharpest rifling, such as you find with some cut-rifled barrels. I’m still shooting the thin-jacket Berger VLDs. I haven’t even switched to the thick-jacket bullets. To do this you need a rifling solution that is kinder to the bullet. The point I’m trying to drive home is that barrel selection is a very important factor. If my barrels didn’t work we would have smoked a lot of bullets. But that’s not the case with the Broughtons. I haven’t blown up a .243 bullet through a Broughton barrel.”
From: https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/john-whidden-shares-championship-secrets/
@Cascade Hemi: What kind of barrel are you running, is it cut rifled or button rifled, and who produced it?
I realize a 6 mm bullet going at 3,200 fps and a spin rate of 1:7 has a much higher chance of blowing up than a 6.5 bullet going 3,000 fps from a 7.5 or 8 twist barrel. So just an idea.
Accidentally stumbled on this comment from John Whidden:
“Importantly, John explained that it takes the right hardware to run the heavy 6mm bullets at high velocities. Bullet blow-up is a risk. John told us: “At the velocities I’m running the 105gr VLDs in the 243s, barrel brand selection is really important. You absolutely have to shoot a barrel that is easy on bullets to run these velocities. To avoid bullet blow-ups at these speeds, you can’t shoot barrels that have the tallest and sharpest rifling, such as you find with some cut-rifled barrels. I’m still shooting the thin-jacket Berger VLDs. I haven’t even switched to the thick-jacket bullets. To do this you need a rifling solution that is kinder to the bullet. The point I’m trying to drive home is that barrel selection is a very important factor. If my barrels didn’t work we would have smoked a lot of bullets. But that’s not the case with the Broughtons. I haven’t blown up a .243 bullet through a Broughton barrel.”
From: https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/john-whidden-shares-championship-secrets/
@Cascade Hemi: What kind of barrel are you running, is it cut rifled or button rifled, and who produced it?
I realize a 6 mm bullet going at 3,200 fps and a spin rate of 1:7 has a much higher chance of blowing up than a 6.5 bullet going 3,000 fps from a 7.5 or 8 twist barrel. So just an idea.
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Mullerworks, 6.5mm, cut rifle, four groove, 1:7.5, 30" Heavy Varmint, Southern Precision finished, 6.5PRC, .135" FB, .030" off the lands. less than 300 rounds total. 200 rounds since cleaned.
Considering the 153gr A-Tip was designed for the 6.5PRC I would think it should hold up. I have seen 140gr and 147gr ELDM come apart out of 6.5CM and 1:8 twist barrels so maybe this is just more of Hornady's known problems. I have a box of 150gr SMK, maybe that's a better option.
Considering the 153gr A-Tip was designed for the 6.5PRC I would think it should hold up. I have seen 140gr and 147gr ELDM come apart out of 6.5CM and 1:8 twist barrels so maybe this is just more of Hornady's known problems. I have a box of 150gr SMK, maybe that's a better option.
Yeah i can understand why you are disappointed. Should not happen.
Might be worth asking MullerWorks how tall they cut their grooves and comparing it with say Broughton. I use a Savage 12 (presumably button rifled) and an MPA barrel (also button rifled). No issues with those. My cut rifled Shilen barrel is sitting in the safe.
Might be worth asking MullerWorks how tall they cut their grooves and comparing it with say Broughton. I use a Savage 12 (presumably button rifled) and an MPA barrel (also button rifled). No issues with those. My cut rifled Shilen barrel is sitting in the safe.
Shhhh
Let me tell you a little secret,,,,,
The 190 a tips are pulling a Houdini occasionally as well.
Maybe that’s why I bought a thousand Berger’s instead.
Yeah, I expect more for what I paid for the A-Tip. Initially they performed really well but it seems like the quality slid almost immediately. The end product doesn't match the marketing or even the packaging. I now have a bunch of Hornady marked Crown Royal bags though.
So far i really like the performance of the A-tips, but it is hard to justify the higher price. We shall see.
My seconds have been performing pretty good so far in my RPR, better groups than 140ELDM's/147ELDM's. As I said earlier I live just down the road from Hornady so I try to stop once or twice a week to check their seconds drawers. Looking for 6.5/.338's. They had around a dozen boxes of the 153's, passed on them for a couple of weeks. Finally they had 3 boxes left($31ea) so I figured I'd try them. At that price I wish now I would have gotten more of them sooner. They're closed to the public right now because of the virus (I think they're still closed) so as soon as I can get in there I'll be looking again.
So do I but I'm fairly certain I can get the same performance from Berger and Sierra. Now that I have bullets coming apart I can't justify paying almost double the price of 150 SMK.
Well there is good news and bad news. The bad news is the very first A-Tip out of the gun today blew up. The chronograph didn't pick it up either. It was the first shot after cleaning, 24 subsequent shots did not come apart. The good news is that 150SMK has pretty much the idententical internal ballistics as 153 A-Tip. The same exact load goes the same exact speed with the same exact SD.
Glad you found a bullet that shoots well from your rifle.
All: Does anybody know if MullerWorks cuts their barrels with taller than normal grooves, or is it fairly similar to other barrels?
I used Superformance and it has been the worst, for me, for accuracy. They pushed all over the place. Will not use it again. H4350 is my go to with RL17 right behind is. Just my experience.
Hi Sir , I'm looking for a load 153 g A Tip , I have superformance , AA 4350, H 4350, My rifle is Rem 700, with Krieger 26 3/4 " Heavy Palma ,brass hornady, primer federal 210 , I didn't try yet with this, what is your best advice? Thanks!
Best advice: Just develop your own load for your particular rifle.
Load data from one rifle rarely works optimally in another rifle. Pressure max is also different if you compare multiple rifles chambered in the same caliber. Reason: Chambers are not all cut the exact same dimensions, and brass thickness varies which changes the internal volume. Example: Alpha brass can be quite thick, while Hornady can be up to 1.5 thou thinner.
Also barrel whip is unique for each rifle, and that drives group size at longer distances (via positive compensation).
Use the reloading table below from Hornady as your guide: Superformance, H4831 and RL-17 gives good speed according to Hornady. Just be aware that RL-17 is VERY temperature sensitive and you will need a winter and summer load, so use with sufficient care.
I have a tight chamber comp rifle that hits max pressure at least 1.0 gn before the max value stated in the Hornady reloading book. My Rem700 has a sloppy refinished chamber that needs 0.5 gn more than my Savage 12 to get same/similar speed (and it does not show pressure signs until powder charge is a bit beyond book max). Reloading manuals are useful guides and provides a starting point, but your own rifle will tell you what is best.
Start middle of book range and work up in 0.5 or 0.3 gn increments and watch for pressure signs like flattened primers (pancake primers), severely cratered primers and ejector marks, or heavy bolt lift. Then back off 0.5 gn from this powder charge and assume that as your max value.
Your optimal muzzle velocity (widest flat spot) may be as much as 100 fps helow max. Often 50-60 fps lower. Chasing max speed is not really advisable, rather optimize for best accuracy under variable ambient conditions.
Load data from one rifle rarely works optimally in another rifle. Pressure max is also different if you compare multiple rifles chambered in the same caliber. Reason: Chambers are not all cut the exact same dimensions, and brass thickness varies which changes the internal volume. Example: Alpha brass can be quite thick, while Hornady can be up to 1.5 thou thinner.
Also barrel whip is unique for each rifle, and that drives group size at longer distances (via positive compensation).
Use the reloading table below from Hornady as your guide: Superformance, H4831 and RL-17 gives good speed according to Hornady. Just be aware that RL-17 is VERY temperature sensitive and you will need a winter and summer load, so use with sufficient care.
I have a tight chamber comp rifle that hits max pressure at least 1.0 gn before the max value stated in the Hornady reloading book. My Rem700 has a sloppy refinished chamber that needs 0.5 gn more than my Savage 12 to get same/similar speed (and it does not show pressure signs until powder charge is a bit beyond book max). Reloading manuals are useful guides and provides a starting point, but your own rifle will tell you what is best.
Start middle of book range and work up in 0.5 or 0.3 gn increments and watch for pressure signs like flattened primers (pancake primers), severely cratered primers and ejector marks, or heavy bolt lift. Then back off 0.5 gn from this powder charge and assume that as your max value.
Your optimal muzzle velocity (widest flat spot) may be as much as 100 fps helow max. Often 50-60 fps lower. Chasing max speed is not really advisable, rather optimize for best accuracy under variable ambient conditions.
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Found this thread while searching for answers. .264 Win Mag, 2992 FPS, about 1 in 10 rounds grenade and don't make it to the target. 1:8 twist 28" Benchmark barrel. This is the only round I've had this happen with, and it's a very mild load for the cartridge. Lot # 2201091
Yea
I had 190 A-tips blowing up as well.
Anyone shooting the 156gr EOL Bergers in their 6.5CM. I ask because I have settled on a very good load although the speed is not blistering @ 2525 fps average over 10 rounds. SD 6.6 ES 17 with H4350. Ballistic calculator says it is supersonic out to 1400 yards so is perfectly satisfactory for the ranges I shoot. I was just wondering if anyone else has had experience with these beauties?
Do you intend to use it for hunting or target shooting?
For target shooting, as long as you know speed (via a crony) and distance (any good LRF), bullet drop is of less concern as you will simply end up dialing 4 or 5 clicks more, and wind drift will be about 10% more, which is not really a major disadvantage.
For hunting, appropriate bullet selection and shot placement is key, but higher speed helps greatly to open up the bullet and produce hydrostatic shock and a large wound channel, with an exit wound. Berger bullets are apparently designed to fragment and blow up inside the animal so wound channel is usually substantial anyway. I have seen fist-size exit wounds on feral hogs shot at short range (50 yards) with this particular bullet. They all ran 30-40 yards before collapsing. Massive blood trail! None instantly collapsed after a shoulder shot. [Of course, neck or headshots (just behind the ear) would have done exactly that.]
Would be worth checking what is the minimum speed where the 156 EOL bullet is still lethal. Berger Support would be able to tell you. [IMHO this bullet is workable in a 6.5 CM, but it is perhas a little on the heavy side for the caliber. It does really well in the 6.5 PRC.]
For hunting loads i do chase speed (even if there is not a perfectly wide node there to work with), by selecting powders like Superformance or double base powders like RL-26, or lighter bullets. Might even HBN coat these bullets to get a bit more. Speed kills!
Btw: From a 6.5 PRC or a 264 Winmag you can get massive speed - and then this heavy hunting bullet comes into its own.
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I got the chance to buy 500 of them for a much reduced price so I jumped at the opportunity. They are for paper only currently. I can get better velocities out of them using H4831sc as have done a Satterlee 10 round but have not had a chance to check SD/ES or do any further load development with them yet. I needed a good load for an LRP shooting course next week that requires 200 rounds of match grade ammo. As I had already been some ways towards this load I concentrated on it for that purpose. I'm going to do a seating depth trial this coming weekend before loading all the ammo up to the finalised specs. For hunting I will definitely work with another powder and get some more speed.
Sorry to open up an older thread but we’re you guys compressing those loads? I’m using h4350 and I can’t get 40.3 grains in there without compressing the load. I was just curious since y’all are running more powder than me?
Hornady brass with the 153 grain a tips and 40.3 grn h4350. Seated to 2.800 coal. I’m nervous to compress it because I’ve never had to do that before and don’t want to blow myself up.
Hornady brass with the 153 grain a tips and 40.3 grn h4350. Seated to 2.800 coal. I’m nervous to compress it because I’ve never had to do that before and don’t want to blow myself up.
You might want to seat the projectiles much further out than 2.800. Do you know what your rifle ‘jam’ is? Do you have a comparator set. It’s a very long and sleek bullet with the ogive set back a long way from the tip so you should use a CBTO measurement or load to maximum mag length.
Yeah I do, unfortunately restricted by pmags, was trying to see if I could get away with loading to mag length vs having to individually load for 20k jump.
You may have to spring for the steel magazines. You can probably get to 2.83-ish.
Also when you drop your powder, take a pencil or something and, while holding the cartridge upright on a flat surface, tap the side multiple times. This helps the powder settle down and fill the tiny gaps.
Also, what brass are you using? Lapua? Peterson? Norma? Etc. I know from experience Lapua has less internal capacity than Norma, Hornady, amd some others.
Two tips for you, get a ASC Or ACS mag I forget the name but they have a 2.860 COAL and that will help a lot. I found you will get a lot more speed without sacrificing consistency using rl16 when running the 153s. my mag few loads im running at 2.850 with speeds of 2832 using rl16.
I load 140’s when the barrel is new and and the freebore is short, then when the lands move forward due to throat erosion after say 700-1000 rounds i will switch to a 145 or 147 gn bullet and eventually to a 153 as the barrel gets near end of life and seat them super long. You need the long shank to make it work.
These 153 gn loads are single feed and requires a little more powder than the book says once your eroded “freebore” is 0.25” more than desired… Just one way to play the game and get value for money from your barrel. I got a barrel to 3500 rounds this way, but it needed a deep clean down to bare metal to revive it at 2500 and yes abrasives were needed.
You can buy a long drop tube as well to settle the powder. Or use an old ultrasonic toothbrush.
These 153 gn loads are single feed and requires a little more powder than the book says once your eroded “freebore” is 0.25” more than desired… Just one way to play the game and get value for money from your barrel. I got a barrel to 3500 rounds this way, but it needed a deep clean down to bare metal to revive it at 2500 and yes abrasives were needed.
You can buy a long drop tube as well to settle the powder. Or use an old ultrasonic toothbrush.
Ok, so old thread....
What barrels did you folks see bullets blowing up with?
I typically use, Proof and Bartlein, and have PVA and Rock Creek barrels as well. Is one better than the others?
What barrels did you folks see bullets blowing up with?
I typically use, Proof and Bartlein, and have PVA and Rock Creek barrels as well. Is one better than the others?
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