Not trying to open a can of worms here, but I have searched the internet trying to find an answer to my question. The question is, between these two calibers, if you put ALL variables aside, which includes shooter, equipment etc. is one a more accurate round (bench rest accuracy) than the other? I have found older posts that where made before lapua made brass for the creedmoor, so most people picked the 6.5x47 as being more accurate because of the brass quality. But since lapua does make creedmoor brass now, does that level the playing field? I see F-class results and I am not seeing any creedmoor's winning, but do see 6.5x47 lapua winning some. Is it because the 6.5x47 is more accurate, or is it because allot of F-class shooters just haven't made the jump over to the creedmoor even with lapua brass available? The ONLY answer I could find was the 6.5x47 was more inherently accurate because the case could handle higher pressures which made it a more accurate round.
- Thread starter jaybigboy34
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The problem with the question is that it’s all in the variables, because that’s all there is between the two. These cases are dang near identical. Same body taper, shoulder diameter, shoulder angle, within about .020 in neck length(47 longer). The only significant difference is that the shoulder locations are about .080 apart( creed longer). The creed will always be faster if comparing Lapua brass. Never heard it said that the 47 is more accurate because of higher pressures. I don’t think that’s a factor at all frankly, and doesn’t make any sense to me. The case heads determine how much pressure the case can take, and in that regard, they are identical when using Lapua brass(which is identical to a 6br case head). Edit: in other words, the two can be run to the exact same pressures.
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From what I understand when I was making the decision is the 6.5x47 is easier to tune a load for, but around 50 fps slower. I went 6.5x47 and so far every load I've tried with h4350 is sub 10 sd and sub .5 MOA at 100 with like .25moa vertical at 600.
The x47 has been much easier to load for me. Out of about 30 different loads across 3 bullets at generic seating depths my worst group was 1" and worst SD was 10. Also i wanted to get away from h4350.
Another consideration is mag length. Youll be able to seat the x47 bullet longer and not run out of room. If you run AW mags its kind of a moot point though.
Another consideration is mag length. Youll be able to seat the x47 bullet longer and not run out of room. If you run AW mags its kind of a moot point though.
These questions are purely academic and have no practical value because there is never a situation where all things (besides the one being discussed) are equal.
Focusing on which cartridge is the most "bench accurate" is a complete waste of time. Focus your time and energy into finding one acceptably accurate load for whichever one you choose then shooting the piss out of it.
Focusing on which cartridge is the most "bench accurate" is a complete waste of time. Focus your time and energy into finding one acceptably accurate load for whichever one you choose then shooting the piss out of it.
People say that coupled with the small primer makes it more accurate. I'll try to find some tests proving that but I think its out there that the 6.5x47 is more accurate consistently.
http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/65x47/
http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/65x47/
Whoever made that statement is confusing correlation with causality.
6.5CM wins,
The x47 is too expensive compared, no where near the support as 6.5CM, the velocities are slower and you have to push it to the limits to get the proper speed, and those who cry, but lapua brass, that is just a smoke screen.
The only benefit was when there was no 6.5CM because it was then only compared to the 260REM and at the time guys were loading that too long to fit in a magazine. The 6.5CM solved the same problem with magazine length loading.
6.5CM all day long
The x47 is too expensive compared, no where near the support as 6.5CM, the velocities are slower and you have to push it to the limits to get the proper speed, and those who cry, but lapua brass, that is just a smoke screen.
The only benefit was when there was no 6.5CM because it was then only compared to the 260REM and at the time guys were loading that too long to fit in a magazine. The 6.5CM solved the same problem with magazine length loading.
6.5CM all day long
Here in Europe x47 is still pretty popular but basically because we miss propellant options you have (f... bastards lol)
Finding a good load with VV powder and Scenars for x47 is a piece of cake.
With all Hodgdon, Alliant and IMR powders on the shelf, 6.5 creedmoor is the choice, no brainer.
That’s my choice at least, I reload and shoot just 6.5 creed for all my short actions either bolt or semis and 300 Norma for the longs.
Just few 308 for those nostalgia days.
Finding a good load with VV powder and Scenars for x47 is a piece of cake.
With all Hodgdon, Alliant and IMR powders on the shelf, 6.5 creedmoor is the choice, no brainer.
That’s my choice at least, I reload and shoot just 6.5 creed for all my short actions either bolt or semis and 300 Norma for the longs.
Just few 308 for those nostalgia days.
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Ok, so it seems that there is not that much difference between the two. So I guess my only other thought on the subject is why there is not 6.5 creeds in bench rest or f class, but you do see 6.5x47s. Is it because the 6.5x47 is easier to tune?
@jaybigboy34 as answered before, because it was the small primer brass that made it easier to control the sd/es.. same same if you use lapua with the creed as mentioned before.. So guys starting in F-class or whatever spun up on 47 before the small primer was available for the creed.
The 2018 Williamsport World Open 1000Y benchrest match was won with a 6.5x47L. That's competing against 6BR, Dasher, BRX, you name it.
Has a 6.5 Creed ever won a BR match, I don't know if it has?
Has a 6.5 Creed ever won a BR match, I don't know if it has?
Steve what does that really mean?
Does it mean the guy has been working with the new Lapua small primer CM and found the 47 more accurate? Or that maybe he also choose the 47 for some other reason, maybe even before people had good data and experience with the newer small primer brass. Also, who would choose large primer 308 over small, if they were BR guys, same for the 6.5?
While the BR guys I know certainly are fastidious with their reloading, some pioneering, many are also chasing exactly what the big winner shot. I have to believe, after going to a couple of these matches it isn't always the cartridge itself that was magic.
Diver beat me to it, but i’ll add a little something. Look at the results of that match. The podium was made up of the 47, a 6.5-284, and a 300 wsm, yet they all shot within a gnats dick of each other. That’s some serious diversity in cartridges. The outright group record was just reset by a 6BRA, which toppled the old record that was set by a big 30 magnum wildcat almost twelve years ago. If you can derive anything from long range BR match results over time, it’s that people win with all kinds of cartridges, big and small.
A guy won a match... sounds like the perfect reason to go that direction.
If I had to guess, the answer to your question is lost in the noise created by the fact that the variables you want to ignore always exist.
My take on it was that despite being a Lapua brass fan, and despite my interest in the x47, I went creedmoor because it's more than accurate enough, and it's easy. I can pick up match ammo everywhere and it all has hammered for me. I've been able to keep 5-10fps SD with Hornady brass, and I'm launching 147s at 2765fps in a 21" barrel under 60ksi with RL26. Hard to argue with that for plate matches, practice, or hunting.
My take on it was that despite being a Lapua brass fan, and despite my interest in the x47, I went creedmoor because it's more than accurate enough, and it's easy. I can pick up match ammo everywhere and it all has hammered for me. I've been able to keep 5-10fps SD with Hornady brass, and I'm launching 147s at 2765fps in a 21" barrel under 60ksi with RL26. Hard to argue with that for plate matches, practice, or hunting.
That would matter if we were shooting benchrest. But we're not. So it doesn't.
I will stick with the x47, it personally interests me more than the creed, and I like to reload. If you don't reload, go 6.5cm no brainer. I like the shorter case of the x47, which allows more room in an AICS magazine. Thar right there means a lot to me. Read all over the internet, you will find post after post of the x47 being super easy to tune with multiple loads. Not downing the creed at all, just saying I'm intrigued by the x47.
Ask yourself this question: If short and efficient case design is no advantage, and smaller powder capacity is bad, why are so many PRS shooters running the 6 dasher instead of the 6 creed or 6x47?
Ask yourself this question: If short and efficient case design is no advantage, and smaller powder capacity is bad, why are so many PRS shooters running the 6 dasher instead of the 6 creed or 6x47?
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Recoil maybe? Its the shortest 308boltface you can run with repeater/magazine in SA family.i choosed x47 bcoz the known powder h4350 and varget is common in hawaii...VV or rl16 will never get to my island
You do realize that in the positional game, IT IS NOT ever the difference in potential accuracy of any of those, or an entire host of other offerings including magnums, that wins or looses a match...
I'd hit the undo button
In talking with guys who shoot both, the x47 seems to be more fogiving but I haven't found the 6.5CM to be finicky by any means.
So if a guy wins a match that shouldn’t mean much. So Can’t the same be applied to the 6.5cm being easy to find ammo for? Seeing brass bullets and powder cost the same.....
So why have 6.5x47 if the 6.5cm is the same but cheaper? This is a serious question.
So why have 6.5x47 if the 6.5cm is the same but cheaper? This is a serious question.
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I have a few 6.5x47's and it's my all time favourite cartridge - second only to the 6BR in 'tuneability' - but even I would steer a new shooter making a decision between the two towards the 6.5CM for a few reasons:
I'm tooled up to bulk load x47 but I'm going to start accumulating CM components/dies.
- High Quality Match Grade/Hunting Ammo is now ubiquitous
- Huge number of factory rifles support the chambering (if you want a lightweight hunting rifle in the x47 you'll be building)
- Touch more velocity potential (50-75fps)
I'm tooled up to bulk load x47 but I'm going to start accumulating CM components/dies.
In the US at least, 6.5 Creedmoor is cheaper to reload or you can go all out with Lapua brass and expensive bullets and wind up spending as much as any 6.5x47 so you have a lot more choice.
Both are very accurate and even a budget reload of 6.5 Creedmoor can be sub MOA ammo so IF Creedmoor gives anything up, it trades it for a lot more variety and commonly available ammo.
I think it's a good trade.
Both are very accurate and even a budget reload of 6.5 Creedmoor can be sub MOA ammo so IF Creedmoor gives anything up, it trades it for a lot more variety and commonly available ammo.
I think it's a good trade.
Diver, I don't know what "it" means. I simply posted relevant subject matter as a reply to the OP's question - (bench rest accuracy) than the other?) I'm not a BR shooter but accuracy does intrigue me , I just saw the article in the bulletin on AC a few weeks ago. All I can say is in this match 6.5x47L was the most accurate that weekend. Take it for what you will.
LL, it's not just a match, it might be considered "the" match though. It doesn't appear 6.5 Creed was represented, so there's that. No skin off my back, whatever, I like both cartridges. Heck if it's a lost brass match I'd certainly take a 6.5 Creed with Hornady brass if I had to choose which cartridge to use. Creed will work fine. Is the Creed winning in PRS or NRL? I don't keep up with that anymore.
308P, We? this isn't our post, it's the OP's. The subject must matter to him or he wouldn't have asked, right?! Besides "we" tend to like as much accuracy as we can get.
Yes the BR cases have less recoil but they are proven winners where accuracy is concerned in other shooting disciplines. I wouldn't pinpoint less recoil as more important than utmost accuracy and low ES, they all go together and is why the BR's are becoming so popular in our type of shooting.
SuperS, we could debate this subject endlessly, I choose not to, but I would take my chances on 6.5x47 simple because of reading about easy tuning and small groups ever since the cartridge came out.
I was there right in front of the target at 1000Y in the pit at the range near Tucson AZ when Charles Greer, with his 300WSM set his 3.9??? something inch group, I can't remember exactly what size it was, just that it was a record. I watched it appear in front of my eyes. It's the only firearm benchrest match I've shot in. Cool huh!
I agree, to a point, at any match there's a element of luck as to who gets the W. Maybe David with his 6.5x47 got the best bench location, the least wind, and his bench manners were flawless??? However you slice it, a W is a W and I'm not saying that the top cartridges aren't capable of winning at any given time.
6.5x47L does seem like the 6mmBR of the 6.5's but that's my opinion. I could be wrong.
Rock your Creeds, lol, I wasn't expecting such angst.
BTW, I'm not having good luck trying to talk myself out of 6mmBRA for my next barrel. Maybe even a 25 BRA! What do "we" think of that, LOL.
LL, it's not just a match, it might be considered "the" match though. It doesn't appear 6.5 Creed was represented, so there's that. No skin off my back, whatever, I like both cartridges. Heck if it's a lost brass match I'd certainly take a 6.5 Creed with Hornady brass if I had to choose which cartridge to use. Creed will work fine. Is the Creed winning in PRS or NRL? I don't keep up with that anymore.
308P, We? this isn't our post, it's the OP's. The subject must matter to him or he wouldn't have asked, right?! Besides "we" tend to like as much accuracy as we can get.
Yes the BR cases have less recoil but they are proven winners where accuracy is concerned in other shooting disciplines. I wouldn't pinpoint less recoil as more important than utmost accuracy and low ES, they all go together and is why the BR's are becoming so popular in our type of shooting.
SuperS, we could debate this subject endlessly, I choose not to, but I would take my chances on 6.5x47 simple because of reading about easy tuning and small groups ever since the cartridge came out.
I was there right in front of the target at 1000Y in the pit at the range near Tucson AZ when Charles Greer, with his 300WSM set his 3.9??? something inch group, I can't remember exactly what size it was, just that it was a record. I watched it appear in front of my eyes. It's the only firearm benchrest match I've shot in. Cool huh!
I agree, to a point, at any match there's a element of luck as to who gets the W. Maybe David with his 6.5x47 got the best bench location, the least wind, and his bench manners were flawless??? However you slice it, a W is a W and I'm not saying that the top cartridges aren't capable of winning at any given time.
6.5x47L does seem like the 6mmBR of the 6.5's but that's my opinion. I could be wrong.
Rock your Creeds, lol, I wasn't expecting such angst.
BTW, I'm not having good luck trying to talk myself out of 6mmBRA for my next barrel. Maybe even a 25 BRA! What do "we" think of that, LOL.
I knew this would be posted but that's before creedmoor lapua brass.
I be married to the Creedmoor, but me loins yearn for me first love... who call herself 6.5x47L.
I think either caliber is capable of the same accuracy potential, but that is a very moot point because to determine any quantifiable difference if any at all as you originally stated ALL other external factors have to be eliminated. This condition will never exist, you will always have external influences on accuracy, some controllable others not as much. If you are trying to decide which caliber to use I don't think you should base your decision simply on accuracy potential of the caliber in a controlled environment, but rather how will the caliber work for your specific task. Meaning if your shooting unknown distance with only natural wind indicators then the caliber with the best external ballistics would be the proper choice. Or if where you live you have a component supply restraint then base off that.
What I am getting at is your splitting hairs in an area that really will not be seen in actual use. You need to look at the other aspects of the decision...
What I am getting at is your splitting hairs in an area that really will not be seen in actual use. You need to look at the other aspects of the decision...
You do realize that in the positional game, IT IS NOT ever the difference in potential accuracy of any of those, or an entire host of other offerings including magnums, that wins or looses a match...
I'd hit the undo button
No thanks. I don't guess I've heard of a rifle sport where potential cartridge accuracy doesn't matter, positional, benchrest, or not, and I've shot both. Ever heard of SD or ES? That DOES matter in PRS. Not that I'm saying that the x47 is that much superior to the creed, but it is called the big dasher. A good shooter with a 308 can smoke a bad shooter with a 6 dasher, especially in PRS. Again, I wasn't bashing your beloved Creedmoor, I'd recommend it to most shooters over the x47 anyways.
Recoil maybe? Its the shortest 308boltface you can run with repeater/magazine in SA family.i choosed x47 bcoz the known powder h4350 and varget is common in hawaii...VV or rl16 will never get to my island
Yes recoil is a big part of it, but so is tunability and consistency. I like the 47 because it excels with Varget, which is often more available than 4350 where I'm at.
I went through this myself when building my rifle this year and ended up with the x47. I was going to be reloading all my ammo so 6.5CM being commonly available didn't make a difference to me. Since I was going to be reloading, the x47 seems to be easier to load for and got near the same velocities as a 6.5CM that I previously had. The first 3 rounds I shot through my x47 shot into a .3MOA group with just a random load I thought wouldn't blow up my gun. The x47 being able to use Varget for the heavier bullets is a big plus since it was available at the time where H4350 was nowhere to be found. Now you can get H4350 so it's not as big an issue anymore. And the final nail coffin for the 6.5CM for me is you're limited with COAL. Owned both, shot both, I would still buy a 6.5CM today but I prefer the X47 under my circumstances.
I do think the 47 can be made marginally more accurate if BR is your thing. I don't think that matters to most shooters as much as the massive amount of support for the creedmoor. Also, if I was going to rebarrel to a x47, I'd have to bush my firing pin for small primers, which is absolutely not worth the switch.
On the flip side, the most accurate rifle I've seen is a 6.5x47. Guy shooting it was a professional reloader, and that thing was just stupidly accurate. Running a Bartlein barrel with a NF NXS scope - really solid combo.
On the flip side, the most accurate rifle I've seen is a 6.5x47. Guy shooting it was a professional reloader, and that thing was just stupidly accurate. Running a Bartlein barrel with a NF NXS scope - really solid combo.
I currently shoot 6.5 creedmoor and have no experience with the 6.5x47 but I have noticed a bias against the creedmoor. I’m guessing because it is so popular, people always want to prove they’re different from the herd.
My creedmoor has been ridiculously easy to find a load for and I’ve had to do it a few times because I’m an idiot and keep destroying my brass.
My creedmoor has been ridiculously easy to find a load for and I’ve had to do it a few times because I’m an idiot and keep destroying my brass.
The OP is misguided. Precision rifle is not benchrest, nor is the other positional shooting game I know (NRA highpower rifle). What matters to benchresters (extreme accuracy) is not relevant in our game because in this game (so long as adequate accuracy is obtained) shooting ability trumps reloading prowess. Always has, and hopefully always will.
You really do not understand positional.
You sit next to me on a bouncy rope, shooting at a LARGE ass target, time breathing down your back. The diffference in 5fps average makes no f’ng difference. One of us will handle the pressure better than the other. that will determine who hits.
You can argue all the benchrest stuff you want, but undersstand what game you mention, when you do.
The SD is not why people have flocked to 6mm, semi-free recoil is. People are trying to take away shooter shake, but still would like to spot.
Your SD argument is misguided at best. Nobody’s talking about shit ass ammo.
So then what, in your opinion, makes one different from the other? Because I agree, having the best toys does not ensure a win, or everyone would have the same best toy.
A lot of people apply the same shallow thinking and you end up with monkey see monkey do?
No, the same thinking can't be applied to ammo availability. The ability to easily find ammo is one of the things that allows one to shoot a lot, which is key to getting good.
but wouldn' t that say the x47 was slightly above the 6.5? If I can shoot one more because its cheaper then i should be much better of a shooter than the x47 guy( given he shoots less) because I have more time behind the gun. I am asking because I am about to build a 6.5 or a 6.5x47
I've gone back and forth 3 times (3 of each) between these two calibers and while I love the Creedmoor I still believe the 47L to edge out the most accuracy and precision with me pulling the trigger and making the ammo. We all know each barrel will have different characteristics when it comes to velocity, my latest 47L has a chamber with a freebore designed around using the 140 ELD and it has no problem matching the velocity of my Creedmoor barrel (both 25") at it's preferred accuracy node... and does so with 1.8 grains less H4350. SD and ES have always been tighter in each of my 47L barrels compared to my Creedmoor's.
As I hit on in my earlier post, my heart is torn betwixt them.
As I hit on in my earlier post, my heart is torn betwixt them.
I don't guess I understand where the PRS/positional argument came into this pissing contest in relation to the OP's question. He was asking about benchrest accuracy and inherent cartridge accuracy. And I wasn't talking about people flocking to 6mm, I was talking about dasher vs other 6mms. No shit that 6mm has less recoil than 6.5, that's pretty damn obvious. I knew better than to step into this bull shit, I'm done.
I get that you don't want to make what seems like an expensive "mistake". The mistake you're making, IMO, is not whether one cartridge is better than the other.
The mistake you're making is thinking that the choice is super important. It's not. At least it's not in the context of positional shooting.
The OP is misguided. Precision rifle is not benchrest, nor is the other positional shooting game I know (NRA highpower rifle). What matters to benchresters (extreme accuracy) is not relevant in our game because in this game (so long as adequate accuracy is obtained) shooting ability trumps reloading prowess. Always has, and hopefully always will.
He's not misguided, you are just giving him an answer to a question that he didn't ask.
Sometimes people need to be told what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.
What is that? he asked what is the difference in cartridges...
if I go to brunos, the load I want to use costs the same. Brass is the same powder is the same and bullet is the same. SO why should i pick 6.5 over the 6.5x47? Again I am not looking for you to help me make a choice. I am adding to the OPs question or maybe clarifing, what is the difference in the cartridges that differeniate them from each other. As far as cost. The cost issues are which die you buy, yes I can get off the shelf in one vs the other but I dont think thats a factor.
So lets try this again, same cartridge load, say a 140, lapua brass, same primer, same powder or best powder for that caliber... why pick the 6.5 vs the 6.5x47 I know prs is a positional game and no rifle is going to fix that, but Im not bring a 22 or a 338 to the match so I need a Frigging rifle. So if I DONT have a rifle to use and the aboce cartridge is being used what are some pros/cons to pick 6.5 or 6.5x47???
I get its not important from what you are saying... so it looks like it comes to reloading components and the x47 is easier to find powders for. I would offer IMR4064, varget, and 4350.... Vs just 4350
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