so i made the switch from h4350 to reloder 16 and am happy with everything so far, great sd great groups good velocity, but i have heard some negative effects from rl 16 on throat wear and barrel life, is this true? thanks
- Thread starter jpcowboy
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Hard to say since I haven't tried 4350 due to the availability issues. I went from RL-17 to RL-16 and have had great luck as well. I've heard people say Reloader burns throats quick, but I've also heard that from multiple people when speaking about H4350 or Varget. Punch line is eventually your barrel will wear out. Will one powder wear it out faster than another? Maybe. But each barrel is unique in itself, so having an apples to apples comparison is pretty tough. I think the consensus is rate of fire will affect barrel life more than powder used.
My one word of caution is to keep an eye out for a carbon ring with RL-16. I have not had this problem, but I clean more regularly than most seem to (~100-150 rounds). Nothing drastic, just a few wet patches and a pass or 2 with a nylon brush.
My one word of caution is to keep an eye out for a carbon ring with RL-16. I have not had this problem, but I clean more regularly than most seem to (~100-150 rounds). Nothing drastic, just a few wet patches and a pass or 2 with a nylon brush.
Wow, that is cooking! I run 140's at 2835 with H4350. I'm pretty happy with that but 3,000 would be sweet! Congrats!
How many rounds on your barrel?
I had a carbon ring, totally my fault. It is dirty powder, so make sure you have a good cleaning regime. I also use a bore scope to check now. I went 800 and then 600 with one cleaning between before I notice carbon ring issue. Like I said, my fault. I will not run much past 100 rounds now without cleaning.
If I run that long with H4350 I’ll get a carbon ring as well.
Coming up on the 1100 marker after this next session. (This is the second barrel cut with the same reamer).
Come to think of it the carbon ring does ring a bell. I did notice one with load development. When I was debating switching bullets I went to check depth and it slipped passed one and I ended up cleaning the rifle. I had about 400 shots on it at the time now I'm cleaning about every 300 rounds. Just a wet patch and a nylon brush as well.
How many rounds did 1st barrel last? Barrel maker?
The original was the factory from ruger. It was hammer forged bull barrel with a long cut throat. I have a casting if you want me to pull the specs and post them to have an idea. (The custom cut reamer was made from the casting) Second is a Bartlein I had laying around for an occasion like this. First one lasted about 4000 rounds. There was still life in the barrel but the throat was not showing it's best days. Im sure I could cut it and rechamber it the bore still looks immaculate.
I got 2500 outta my 1st ruger rpr barrel, bought a take off on ebay and got 2000 out of it. The ruger rpr barrels I've had were terrific. That rifle now wears a Krieger prefit as my back up. Half this was done with Rl16 never chased lands just added powder.
what load were you using for this? that load seems pretty awesome. I've been using Varget with 130 Hybrids and getting around 2750, but I'd really like to get faster and use 140 Hybrids. I bought a jug of RL16 but havn't had a chance to test anything yet.
Varget doesn't perform well in 6.5cm but if it's all you have it will get the job done. It just isn't efficient enough for the case design. I was using 43.5gr with 140 eldm compressing the powder. RL16 becomes more stable with a 2-3% compression and more predictable burn. You will also get a full burn and close to full expansion right at 26 inches of barrel. The Berger AR hybrids that you are using performed really well in my testing. I ran them all the way up to 3200 but it wasn't worth the throat erosion. Since testing the high pressure loads and now swapping barrels I think that the RL16 is the h4350 competitor and it is more than capable. My data suggested the limit of its performance for that barrel was 147gr pills @2875 to 2900fps was the limit. But as always your mileage may vary and of course your rifle is not the same as mine. Beware of making over max loads and always work up dont start at a particular point because it worked well in someone else firearm.
I have had two barrel sequential in production and identical chambers one run fast one would only run slow. It all depends on the rifle.
Absolutely. That is just a good starting point for a load. I really liked the SD and group size of my Varget loads, but i was really hoping for faster speeds. I switched to Varget after trying H4350 and getting pressure signs around 2600. My barrel is a 26" Bartlein, 1-8, chambered by Whidden with a Stiller Tac30. Also, what brass were you using? Primers? Just trying to get more info, a good starting point is always helpful when making a new load. I'm also very aware of the dangers of over pressure loads. My pet .223 load is an 80gr. SMK pushing 3050. Thanks a lot.
H4350 had some issues for a batch or 2 recently. So I would first question the lot you pulled from. I use both starline and lapua brass. I honestly prefer the starline though when it came to those high pressure loads for it. But they all took alot of work turned necks and everything but they seemed easier to dial then the lapua which was odd. Peterson is going to be my next stuff. Oh all I use are small primers. So Remington 7 1/2 primers always got it going well for me.
This was in my 260 but I think it’s valid here.
I recently tested and quickly switched to R16.
I was using H4350 and IMR4451.
For the same charge of R16 I’m 20-40 FPS faster than those two and I was able to get 90 FPS more before I hit pressure.
I was at 2890 when I hit pressure with 147’s!
Things get spooky at about 2820 with the other two powders.
I picked a load quite a ways below the top speed so now I’m using less powder and getting a bit more speed than before and a SD that makes me giggle like a school girl.
Down range performance is excellent.
Accuracy is there and temp stability should be excellent.
So far I cautiously say maybe H4350 isn’t the top dog anymore.
I recently tested and quickly switched to R16.
I was using H4350 and IMR4451.
For the same charge of R16 I’m 20-40 FPS faster than those two and I was able to get 90 FPS more before I hit pressure.
I was at 2890 when I hit pressure with 147’s!
Things get spooky at about 2820 with the other two powders.
I picked a load quite a ways below the top speed so now I’m using less powder and getting a bit more speed than before and a SD that makes me giggle like a school girl.
Down range performance is excellent.
Accuracy is there and temp stability should be excellent.
So far I cautiously say maybe H4350 isn’t the top dog anymore.
I have had the same experience as Steel head and have converted to RL16 for several loads.
I have a pound of RL-16 I've been meaning to try, and I'll be picking up some 147s today.
Is everyone quoting mid to high 2800s fps using a 26" barrel? Right now I'm seeing those number with H4350 in a 24" barrel.
If I could see close to the same speeds with 147s and RL-16, I'll make the jump.
To be honest, I don't know why I'm even waiting. I think it's because I just ordered an 8lb keg of H4350...
...I was hoping to burn through that before deciding to switch.
Is everyone quoting mid to high 2800s fps using a 26" barrel? Right now I'm seeing those number with H4350 in a 24" barrel.
If I could see close to the same speeds with 147s and RL-16, I'll make the jump.
To be honest, I don't know why I'm even waiting. I think it's because I just ordered an 8lb keg of H4350...
...I was hoping to burn through that before deciding to switch.
@Smk2019 I just went to Peterson (again). I found Starline, as you did, easy to work with once you cleaned it up. Internal case capacity was spectacular case to case.....But on 6-7th firing I started seeing the cases go. Signs of separation. It is great brass if you keep it on the lower end. I use RL16 and run the 140s at 42.4 and 2900, works fine there. I went to the 135 A-tip and running them at 43+ to 44 at 2980 and Starline quit after a few firings. Peterson is holding up fine though. I think the Starline is a bit thin to run on the hotter side. I am running a 28" barrel. I gave up on H4350 as it seems spiky towards the top. RL16 is dirty, but runs great so long as you keep the carbon build up under control.
I've got a 26" MPA MTU barrel and am seeing about 20fps more with RL16 over 4350 with equal charges. I've already tapped out my 4350 loads (stopped at 42.9 with 142 smk's, had heavy bolt lift at 42.6 with no more speed 3/tenths lower), but the RL16 looks like it can pick up the torch where 4350 left off. Going to try it with the 135 A-Tips as well.
I got about 15 to 20 before I started seeing split necks. But I was annealing them every firing. I never got a case seperation or even found signs of one. But we all know that can vary lot to lot. Starline is pretty good brass but you have to put the work into to make it that. But that seems to be the case with all brass now for some reason. I was even finding alot of neck variances in my lapua brass. I have heard alot of good stuff about peterson so I'm thinking it will do well. Alphamunitions is great brass but it is pricey.
On h4350 something changed in it recently is my belief. I used to be able to run it all the way past 62k psi and now I can't and that didn't start until this last year. At 62k it goes unstable and unpredictable. First I thought it was me and I was missing something but after about 6 months of testing it isn't it's the powder. When I contact Hodgson they first of course blamed the reloader but sent a new 8lbs jug and the other jug was fine as l ok g as you stayed below max load but it was under speed by 150+fps. I couldn't get a 140gr pill anywhere near 2700 without blown primers and case deformation. My pressure equipment and quick load all said I was under pressured so did that data and velocity but the powder acted as if I wasn't.
Agreed. As long as you run a nylon brush into the throat every 300 rounds your good any more than that.... going to start seeing problems.
@Smk2019 Just to clarify, the case separation is a new thing. I ran the entire last lot of brass with my previous barrel and got 12ish firings before the barrel went. I replaced the brass with the new barrel. It was working fine until I started pushing to the next node up. I only ran 50 cases for testing. Those cases started showing signs of case separation with one complete failure after 4-5 firings. I was pushing the ladder past 44 just to see where / if I would get heavy bolt lift or actual heavy markings on brass. So I am not surprised considering what I was doing, but I know I can't run the Starline at the next node and get the life out of it like I saw at the 42 node.
Peterson only required a little neck turning and only because my chamber is tighter. They are thicker for sure with all my samplings being a neck wall of .0155-.016. But they came trimmed, flash holes were great, I did not have to do anything before turning them, they were damn near perfect out of the box. The internal case capacity is about 2-3 grains less than Starline. (I don't have exact #s in front of me)
Right now I am just tinkering. I want to see if I can get the new 135 Atips to settle in at the 43.5 load (in Peterson) which is 2980ish for velocity. I think Peterson can handle that but to get that result in Starline I was was pushing 44.2.....and that's a no go with that brass.
I have shot a lot of Starline brass, 4 rifles now and 2 with 2 barrels, it works great as long as you don't push it hard. I was sold on it as it is very reasonably priced, so long as you can and are willing to do the work on it. I enjoy that, so no big deal to me. I will still use it too, but I will use better brass for the long range, heavier loads.
Good stuff. Glad to hear someone else is seeing very similar results in brass and powder. I gave up on H4350, the RL16 is just far superior in the Creedmoor.
Peterson only required a little neck turning and only because my chamber is tighter. They are thicker for sure with all my samplings being a neck wall of .0155-.016. But they came trimmed, flash holes were great, I did not have to do anything before turning them, they were damn near perfect out of the box. The internal case capacity is about 2-3 grains less than Starline. (I don't have exact #s in front of me)
Right now I am just tinkering. I want to see if I can get the new 135 Atips to settle in at the 43.5 load (in Peterson) which is 2980ish for velocity. I think Peterson can handle that but to get that result in Starline I was was pushing 44.2.....and that's a no go with that brass.
I have shot a lot of Starline brass, 4 rifles now and 2 with 2 barrels, it works great as long as you don't push it hard. I was sold on it as it is very reasonably priced, so long as you can and are willing to do the work on it. I enjoy that, so no big deal to me. I will still use it too, but I will use better brass for the long range, heavier loads.
Good stuff. Glad to hear someone else is seeing very similar results in brass and powder. I gave up on H4350, the RL16 is just far superior in the Creedmoor.
So far I'm pretty impressed and this power shows good potential in my rifle.
At 42.3gr of H4350 I was running around 2850fps in a 24" barrel with 140gr Berger VLD Ts.
With 42.5gr of RL16, it looks like I'll be able to run the exact same speed with Hornady 147gr ELD-Ms and be right in the middle of a node that only swung 8fps with a .3gr charge weight increase.
At 42.3gr of H4350 I was running around 2850fps in a 24" barrel with 140gr Berger VLD Ts.
With 42.5gr of RL16, it looks like I'll be able to run the exact same speed with Hornady 147gr ELD-Ms and be right in the middle of a node that only swung 8fps with a .3gr charge weight increase.
I just did another test today with RL16, 140eld, hornady and cci200
41.8 shot well last outing but today was pretty blah. Took it to 42.0-42.4. Getting some stiff bolt lifts at 42.4 but damn if it wasn’t a tight group. 42.0-42.4 all shot well. 2860 (7.6 SD) with a can, out of a 24” Proof barrel at 42.4.
41.8 shot well last outing but today was pretty blah. Took it to 42.0-42.4. Getting some stiff bolt lifts at 42.4 but damn if it wasn’t a tight group. 42.0-42.4 all shot well. 2860 (7.6 SD) with a can, out of a 24” Proof barrel at 42.4.
May I ask what carbon ring your talking about?
I tried soaking and scrubbing mine out, I might sound stupid but I noticed brass that’s coming out has a lot of build up. More than when the barrel was fresh
what solvent are you using?
The carbon ring I've always experienced actually builds up in the throat more so than in the neck area of the chamber. I've had problems with them in 2 different barrels. I've since eliminated the problem by using Bore Tech Eliminator and C4 carbon remover. I clean after every match. So basically between 150-300 rounds. I also use the VFG aggressive pellets and scrub the throat every time I clean as well.
Shooters choice copper solvent, hoppes 9
I second his point. Also, remember your velocity will change depending on how aggressive you de-foul the barrel. It will resettle shortly after cleaning.
Temp stability is, believe it or not, significantly better with Reloder 16 compared to H4350. Tested with 6.5 Creedmoor and 140gr Hybrids.
I will say I never got loose primer pockets in my Norma brass until I started using rl16
Interesting. At the same muzzle velocity? I've found that measured chamber pressure was lower, for the same velocity, for Reloder 16 than H4350.
I was using rl26 before and yes the same velocity. 153s moving at about 2800
I’m running 140’s (Hornady match). I’m getting tight groups with only 36.5 grains. It I’m only at ~2,650 velocity. I’ve read many people getting good results with 40-42 grains - what are you loading?
