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6.5 question

A

arrowslinger#1

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Jan 2, 2011
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Ok, so looking at * internet surfing* and thinking about a 1000 yard round, so....
tell me about the 6.5 creedmoor and the 6.5 grendal. (for a bolt gun)

If I read right basically all one would have to do is rebarrel a 308 action and you could use the same bolt?

Again, just a random questoin, was interested.
Thanks!
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: arrowslinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so looking at * internet surfing* and thinking about a 1000 yard round, so....
tell me about the 6.5 creedmoor and the 6.5 grendal. (for a bolt gun)

If I read right basically all one would have to do is rebarrel a 308 action and you could use the same bolt?

Again, just a random questoin, was interested.
Thanks!</div></div>

Not for a 6.5 Grendel. The bolt face would need to be filled in and re-cut to .440-.442. For the Grendel it would be better to start with one of the 7.62 mini-Mausers, and re-barrel that. The three best 6.5's all have the .473 case head size.

As far as the .260 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5x47 go, they are all very close in performance. Lapua makes brass for the .260 now as well as already having made it for the 6.5x47. Hornady is making very good brass for the 6.5 Creedmoor. FWIW, the 6.5 Creedmoor has the largest capacity by a grain or two over the .260. Which, in turn, has about 3-4 grains over the 6.5x47. It has to do with case shape and SAAMI pressures. For shooting out of a bolt gun, and working up your own loads, I would go with the 6.5 Creedmoor. But, when it comes down to it, there won't be a ton of difference between any of the three.
 
Re: 6.5 question

While the Grendel is nice for a small frame AR it makes no sense in a bolt rifle that has standard bolt face. Much better and more efficient case designs exist. The 6.5 Creedmoor is my favorite of the 6.5 bore bunch. Match grade ammo can be had a reasonable prices and with good handloads you can really get some good performance out of the case. A 140 grain VLD at 2700 fps offers some absolutely amazing ballistics.
 
Re: 6.5 question

Ok, so the creedmoor, how does it compare to the 308 at 1000 yards. I am a noob but I have noticed that heavier loads go subsonic on 308s and that becomes a problem. I need school for this. It is racking my brain.
 
Re: 6.5 question

I did a 6.5 Grendel on Rem 700, neat little round but for 1K use I'd go with touch more case capacity.

I can push 130 JLKs to 2700 fps but rifle shoots best at 2625 via 24" barrel.

If you haven't yet, go to JBM Ballistics and run difference bullets, velocities to 1K. Use the Litz BC value when possible.

6.5 mm, 140 VLD with .640ish BC @ 2700 fps is way ahead of a 30 cal, 175 JLK VLD with a 0.535ish BC @ 2700 fps.

6.5X47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 260 Rem will get you to 1K easy enough. All three will be flatter trajectory and well inside of 308 for wind drift.
 
Re: 6.5 question

All in all would it be worth the trouble to go 6.5 creed moor or just buy a 308? Or just shoot the crap out of the 308 and when ready to build go to the 6.5 are they pretty common ? No-one shoots anywhere near me I just like to tinker and may be able to find a thousand yds around here.
 
Re: 6.5 question

What action are you building on?

Do you roll your own ammo or run factory loads?

Considered a 7-08 with 168 JLK or Berger for 1K use?
 
Re: 6.5 question

I gotta say I like your idea. Putting this in a bolt action will shine if one is seeking a minimal answer to getting out to 1k or even 1500, the 6.5 Grendel will get you there. It will beat a .308 out to 1k. It'll even beat a .308 @ 600.

Now, if you want to beat that then you have to move up to either a BR sized case, the 6XC/Savage .250 imp. sized case, or the .308 sized case. The 6.5 Creedmoor is .308 sized but has just a little more capacity due to the shoulders being moved forward. It is IMO, about the perfect balance of case size for performance vs. wear and tear on a barrel, so that you can get longer lasting accuracy from it. Load it normal and it will give you somewhere around 2500-4000 rounds of competition level accuracy (provided it was built that way in the first place) Load it hot and it may give you up to 2000 rds. 2850-2900 will make your barrel last exponentially. 2950+ will just wear it faster and faster.

One of the drawbacks IMO of the 6.5x47 is rather than just accepting 100 fps less and calling your wind from that, most everybody loads it as hot as they can. When you go to the highest pressure, in any cartridge case, you burn barrels quicker.

There is also the possibility of looking into the 7mm's. Better BC's. Although, you have more drop due to the slightly slower velocities at short range. You make up for that with less wind deflection. And less drop at extreme long ranges. You have to get well past 1k to have that work for you.
 
Re: 6.5 question

Prob on a rem or savage , I don't reload as of yet I am just dreing and gathering info right now . Current building a rem spsv 223 and learning how to shoot and read mils

I will prob run factory loads for a while
 
Re: 6.5 question

On my I phone
Slow Typer thanks for all the input guys
Could someone ( nutshell ) ballistics coef for me
smile.gif

I just learned everything I could about archery- this is much more complicated
 
Re: 6.5 question

If you do not reload them go the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 140 amax at about 24.00 box is the way to go. It is really accurate.
 
Re: 6.5 question

Higher the BC value, the better the bullet moves through atmosphere.
Higher BC, more velocity bullet will retain at distance.

If you don't reload, PM me and I'll get you ammo that is optimized for your rifle/barrel for LR use.
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
. . . .

FWIW, the 6.5 Creedmoor has the largest capacity by a grain or two over the .260. Which, in turn, has about 3-4 grains over the 6.5x47. It has to do with case shape and SAAMI pressures.

. . . . . </div></div>

I believe it's the reverse (i.e. 260 has a couple grain more water capacity over the 6.5 Creedmoor, at least based on my measurement of the water capacity of both those cartridges) not that it's a big deal one way or the other.

These days I am liking the 260 Rem Imp 30 cartridge a lot. You can shoot factory 260 Rem ammo in it and if you reload it afterwards you get even more out of it as it has a couple grains more yet over a .260 Rem. Dies are available for it.

260Remvs260Imp30.jpg

Above 260 Rem (left) vs 260 Imp 30 (right)

Redding260Imp30Dies.jpg
 
Re: 6.5 question

wow- Until I found this site I didn't know half of these calibers existed???? So with a google search it looks like hornady is the only one to factory load a 6.5?? Could ammo be hard to get for it?
 
Re: 6.5 question

Arrowslinger- it sounds like you and I are in the same situation. I too am a newby and have been learning so much about the various calibers over the last several months. I am very interested in the 6.5 creedmoor and am looking for the right rifle to come up for sale on hide. They are very few and far between. I am interested in a longer barrel with a McMillan A5 stock. I'm still learning about the various actions available. I have friends that have 6.5 creedmoor and will be loading there own ammo so I will have access to some hand loads. Good luck with your search...
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Higher the BC value, the better the bullet moves through atmosphere.
Higher BC, more velocity bullet will retain at distance. </div></div>
Thats true but bullets with high BC's ususally have boat tails , its easier to get a more uniform SD/ES with flat base bullets. If your rounds never go subsonic , well you dont <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> need the boat tail. Two sides to a coin i guess.
 
Re: 6.5 question

Going to 1K, you are going to run a flatbase?

Under 400 yds, boattail bullet doesn't gain you all the much but past 400 the BT bullet is walking away from the flatbase.

I disagree with SD/ES statement, never had an issue getting very reasonable SD/ES #s with boattail bullets. I agree that shorter ranges it is easier to get flatbase to shoot small groups, there is a reason BR shooters run flatbase. There is also a reason LR shooters run BT bullets.
 
Re: 6.5 question

SD = Standard Deviation
ES = Extreme spread
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I agree that shorter ranges it is easier to get flatbase to shoot small groups, there is a reason BR shooters run flatbase. There is also a reason LR shooters run BT bullets.
</div></div>

Very true. Bryan Litz also states this in his book. Great read, by the way. Andrew knows his stuff. Heed his advice.
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rcw3</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
. . . .

FWIW, the 6.5 Creedmoor has the largest capacity by a grain or two over the .260. Which, in turn, has about 3-4 grains over the 6.5x47. It has to do with case shape and SAAMI pressures.

. . . . . </div></div>

I believe it's the reverse (i.e. 260 has a couple grain more water capacity over the 6.5 Creedmoor, at least based on my measurement of the water capacity of both those cartridges) not that it's a big deal one way or the other.

These days I am liking the 260 Rem Imp 30 cartridge a lot. You can shoot factory 260 Rem ammo in it and if you reload it afterwards you get even more out of it as it has a couple grains more yet over a .260 Rem. Dies are available for it.

260Remvs260Imp30.jpg

Above 260 Rem (left) vs 260 Imp 30 (right)

Redding260Imp30Dies.jpg
</div></div>

I've found that after sizing, the 6.5 Creedmoor had the largest capacity. But, not by any significant amount. Personally I like the 6.5 Creedmoor. As you noted though, if it's a smidge this way or that, IMO it's about the best capacity/usefulness to that caliber.

However, as you posted the .260 AI, I think that is a good option as well. You can still seat the longest best bullets for caliber to short action magazine length. The caveat to that is no doubt people are going to hot rod it and not get the case or barrel life they expect. Keep the pressures moderate on an Ackley case and you will be amazed at how long they last. I know of a set of Ackley cases that were loaded 29 times. That comes from the exact same headspace time after time and no case stretch due to heat. Keep that Ackley at moderate pressures and you will see long term perfomance that is astounding.

Too many people, myself included, have gotten all wrapped up about that last 50-100 fps. It burns barrels. Once that changes you have to get the harmonics right again. It sometimes takes as many as 200 rounds to figure out the difference. Find the <span style="text-decoration: underline">lower</span> accuracy node and shoot in the wind as much as you can.
 
Re: 6.5 question

For me I went with 6.5 Creedmoor because it feeds better in a semi-auto, as I have both a bolt gun and semi-auto in 6.5 Creedmoor. Even though I reload, having reasonably price loaded match grade ammo is wonderful. 6.5 Creedmoor loaded ammo is going to be slightly cheaper than 260rem in general. 6.5x47 has great brass, but has less case capacity.

The only drawback is brass availability for Creedmoor, but I usually just buy loaded ammo, and then reload fired rounds. They have their recipe printed on the box, and I've found that it's close to the most accurate load in most rifles, and not enough of a difference for me to search further with different load testing.

Plus, Hornady came out with hunting loads for 6.5 Creedmoor as well.
 
Re: 6.5 question

im wondering why the 6.5x55 is being ignored here, if its a long action which is plausible but unlikely for a .308 it wouldnt hurt to give it a look.
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

However, as you posted the .260 AI, I think that is a good option as well. You can still seat the longest best bullets for caliber to short action magazine length. The caveat to that is no doubt people are going to hot rod it and not get the case or barrel life they expect. Keep the pressures moderate on an Ackley case and you will be amazed at how long they last. I know of a set of Ackley cases that were loaded 29 times. That comes from the exact same headspace time after time and no case stretch due to heat. Keep that Ackley at moderate pressures and you will see long term perfomance that is astounding.

Too many people, myself included, have gotten all wrapped up about that last 50-100 fps. It burns barrels. Once that changes you have to get the harmonics right again. It sometimes takes as many as 200 rounds to figure out the difference. Find the <span style="text-decoration: underline">lower</span> accuracy node and shoot in the wind as much as you can.</div></div>

I was under the impression the .260 AI had a 40 degree shoulder? Is there a 30 degree variant?

TCross02x300.jpg

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blackops_2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

However, as you posted the .260 AI, I think that is a good option as well. You can still seat the longest best bullets for caliber to short action magazine length. The caveat to that is no doubt people are going to hot rod it and not get the case or barrel life they expect. Keep the pressures moderate on an Ackley case and you will be amazed at how long they last. I know of a set of Ackley cases that were loaded 29 times. That comes from the exact same headspace time after time and no case stretch due to heat. Keep that Ackley at moderate pressures and you will see long term perfomance that is astounding.

Too many people, myself included, have gotten all wrapped up about that last 50-100 fps. It burns barrels. Once that changes you have to get the harmonics right again. It sometimes takes as many as 200 rounds to figure out the difference. Find the <span style="text-decoration: underline">lower</span> accuracy node and shoot in the wind as much as you can.</div></div>

I was under the impression the .260 AI had a 40 degree shoulder? Is there a 30 degree variant?

TCross02x300.jpg

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html
</div></div>

Yes, the Ackley is a 40 degree shoulder. And yes, there are 30 degree versions as well as 28, 32 and 35 degree versions. Different ideas on pressure vs. flow and feeding issues.
 
Re: 6.5 question

Didn't know that. I imagine a 30 degree shoulder would make for a nice round also, assuming you still fire form brass.
 
Re: 6.5 question

If you're not seriously into handloading and load development, a short action with the 6.5 CM is good, or a long action with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser.

If you can develop your own handloads, I prefer the .260 Remington.

Savage has recently begun offering some very interesting rifles chambered for the .260 Rem and 6.5 CM.

I chose a new Predator Hunter Max I in .260.

I like its solid construction, good accuracy, and it's also a good weight compromise between a hunter and a bench gun.

BTW, if you haven't looked at the Savage web site recently, it's changed some, and there are a lot more chambering/offerings available lately. I suspect the site is in the midst of some updating, because some of the model selections don't all come up when you do a scan by chambering/caliber.

Greg
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're not seriously into handloading and load development, a short action with the 6.5 CM is good, or a long action with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser.

If you can develop your own handloads, I prefer the .260 Remington.

Savage has recently begun offering some very interesting rifles chambered for the .260 Rem and 6.5 CM.

I chose a new Predator Hunter Max I in .260.

I like its solid construction, good accuracy, and it's also a good weight compromise between a hunter and a bench gun.

BTW, if you haven't looked at the Savage web site recently, it's changed some, and there are a lot more chambering/offerings available lately. I suspect the site is in the midst of some updating, because some of the model selections don't all come up when you do a scan by chambering/caliber.

Greg</div></div>

They've got all the stuff I want...just not in one rifle, or configuration.
 
Re: 6.5 question

If they have everything you want, just not in any particular offering, call them and say so. They can usually make you an offer for your specific needs.

Greg
 
Re: 6.5 question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they have everything you want, just not in any particular offering, call them and say so. They can usually make you an offer for your specific needs.

Greg</div></div>

Greg,

I did. I ended up getting it exactly the way I wanted it for about $300 less. Savage action, Choate stock, 1-8" twisted 26" Shilen barrel in 7mm-08.
 
Re: 6.5 question

McCourt

on the 140VLD's is .640 the right BC? I have .585 as a BC. Just trying to make sure I have it right. I am using the 140 AMAX.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McCourt Munitions LLC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did a 6.5 Grendel on Rem 700, neat little round but for 1K use I'd go with touch more case capacity.

I can push 130 JLKs to 2700 fps but rifle shoots best at 2625 via 24" barrel.

If you haven't yet, go to JBM Ballistics and run difference bullets, velocities to 1K. Use the Litz BC value when possible.

6.5 mm, 140 VLD with .640ish BC @ 2700 fps is way ahead of a 30 cal, 175 JLK VLD with a 0.535ish BC @ 2700 fps.

6.5X47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor, or 260 Rem will get you to 1K easy enough. All three will be flatter trajectory and well inside of 308 for wind drift. </div></div>
 
Re: 6.5 question

140 JLK VLD is 0.630 G1 BC per Swampworks website.

.585 G1 BC for the 140 A-max sounds about right.

130 JLK VLD is probably not a 0.620 G1 BC, probably closer to 0.590 G1 BC.
 
Re: 6.5 question

If you can get the G7 BC values, you would be better off. G1 values are basicly for flat based bullets and the G7 values are for the VLD's. I know that a lot of companies only list a G1 value. But when using ballistic calculators, when trying to configure output data for a VLD bullet using G1 calculations, your data will not be as accurate. It will give you a base line. But it will still be off. If you use the JBM online ballistic calculator, if the bullet that your wanting to check has (Litz) beside it, that is the profile that I would select. It will give you best results to go by.
 
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