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6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

jrob300

jrob300

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 7, 2009
2,492
6
Montana
Have any of you LR/ELR guys done any real world BC/elevation comparison testing on the different heavy 6.5's? I've been shooting 300WM exclusively and am in the process of building a .260. It won't be my go to ELR rig, but will occasionally see 1500+ to a mile. I know with the heavy/high BC .30's there are subtle but distinct personalities from bullet to bullet. That's what I'm looking for here.

So my questions are:

Between the 142 SMK, 139 Scenar, 140 Berger, 140 Nosler CC and the new AMP 140 Amax, which flies the flattest at the same velocity?

How is transonic performance of each bullet? (Do they tumble from the sky or do they continue nicely several hundred yds. past?)

Which of the above gives the most consistently small groups at distance?

Which seems to be most forgiving to load for?

And last, is there one that seems to give more velocity per given load?

Yes, I've seen Bryan Litz's data. In addition to not covering all of the above, I'm interested in what you guys have witnessed.

I have a ton of 142 SMK's as my good 'ol standby, but just wondering if there are other bullets that show standout performance in one or more areas.

Thanks for your time.

John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

My Buddy DaleT has been playing with the Scenars, Amax and Matchkings in his short barrel and he says he can interchange them with no problem at the 1000 yard matchs with very minor elevation changes. I'll try to get him on to chime in.

Topstrap
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

I think the last time I ran some JBM calcs. on these it showed almost no discernible difference until well past 1000 yds., so I find that very believable. The .30's are similar (although the 210 JLK's and Bergers take more powder for the same velocity). Similar velocity, similar POI at 1000. It's 1500 and out where they really start to show differences and the best ELR fliers are not necessarily the best for groups.

John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

From my experiences, which will differ from most of the shooting you do John (high altitudes)

1000' ASL ~ 28.5-29.79 inHg on most days:


140 Berger VLD is a flat, fast, straight... but seating depth fussy Bitch. It hammers from a 6.5-06 at a mile and gets there with the biggest of the 30cal mags. The caveat is you need to be able to see bullet splashes, the little 140gr pills don't make the divot that a 210gr-240gr bullet will make.

The 130 JLK is ALMOST what the 140 Berger is, except it can be shoved out a little faster (0.593 avg G1 vs. 0.613 avg G1)

140 JLK is the king of the hill for BC but they're hard to get sometimes. The JLK's are the same shape just with a different core weight.

The 142 SMK is very tolerant, it makes it down through the sound barrier in my AO without trouble.

The 140 Amax is also tolerant and transition capable.

The SMK and 140 Amax are the 2 lowest BC bullets on the pile, but they both shoot extremely well.

All the bullets I've shot have shown the tendency to group very well, I've shot the majority of them as Bergers and I've got a pretty good gut feeling for how that bullet flies from my rifle.

A bolt action 260 tipped with the 130/140 JLK or 140 Berger will give you the top 3 ballistic performers though I have no idea if your altitude will get them to transition well.

I've had the 140 Amax's out to 1450yd at 28.9 inHg 34*F and they were subsonic for 200yd out of my 260 upper. Still drilled point first and were very repeatable, the problem with such long subsonic flights is dealing with wind deflection.
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

That's good info, Josh.

Did you find that the Bergers were so picky about seating depth that they began to open up as the throat moved? I have no interest in chasing lands in a field rifle.

On paper at least, the JLK's seem to be the bullet that provides bang-for-the-buck over the 142 SMK, but if they are seating sensitive like the Bergers, not sure if it's worth it for
.5 mil @ 1500 yds. and 2.5 mil @ 2000
wink.gif


John

<span style="font-weight: bold">ETA</span>: Wow! I just ran JBM on the 130JLK's (remember, these have no Litz #'s so they're generous) but .6 mil flatter @ 1000, 1.5 @ 1500 and 4 mil @ 2000 yds *if* they can be pushed 100 fps faster. Hmmm....
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

My Experience...

142 SMK's: Very Accurate but slow, enough that they lost the Windage game past 600.

139 Scenars: (With WAY Over Inflated BC) Accurate and flew Ok, speed was good.

140 A-Max: Neither of the 2 above could hold a candle to them in high wind, the Scenars had up to 12" of deviation compared to under 6 with the A-Max shooting one after another (10-15 MPH WIND, 500 YARDS Dialing correction then not compensating for changes) This sealed the deal for me on the A-Max. (Besides the Highest REAL BC of the bunch)
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

This is the type of anecdotal evidence I was looking for. I've had the same experience with 208 Amax's. Way less wind then predicted. Most people get hung up on elevation, and that is an issue if you're scope limited, but wind is what will kill you.

Thanks Ace.

John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

I run a 15'' bolt action pistol in 260rem at 2450/2500fps out to 1000yds,I just add 1 to 3 moa's in elevation after 600yds from the 139 settings,for the 142's and the 140A-max,[they seem to buck the wind about the same], they seen to interchange real well and not many problem's .I mainly wanted to know the results of these different brands because I can not always afford to buy in bulk and may have to depend on one of these to get by a match every now and again .I ran all 139 Lapua's last yr,I am planning to use 142 SMK'S this yr and maybe 140 A-Max's next yr ,God willing ?
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

I've shot the Scenars out to a mile from my 260. I can tell you that my muzzle velocity was around 2780 fps and at a mile I needed 89 MOA. I'm at about 50' ASL and that was during the summer when there was a high +DA. About half the rounds would keyhole. I can't tell you at what range they were going transonic. I'm going to try some Bergers this Friday at a mile.
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCA4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would be interested to see bullet hitting an imaginary wall and dropping from the sky.

Just because most say doesn't mean it is so. </div></div>

Conversely, it happens sometimes and not others. The classic example is the 800yd limit to the 308, depending on the bullet and the conditions this can be true or total horse-hockey.

Similar with a certain set of bullets from a 30-06 or 300 WM. The range is just pushed out further because the MV's from those 2 rounds is higher.



John-

The JLK's are:

0.640 and 0.593 for the 140 and 130 respectively, this is Litz data from the book. The 140 is checked, I backed out the BC for the 130 because of the fact that the 130 is the same shape with a lower core weight, so the BC can be scaled with a high degree of certainty.

The 140 Bergers required me to check my seating depth every 100-110 rounds from the 6.5-06 because it was burning the throat so aggressively. From a tamer case like a 260 I know a friend is checking the seating depth appx. every 300-350 rounds to keep them shooting as tight as possible. The 6.5-06 is somewhat fussy to deal with when you run it at the ragged edge, but once you've tasted 3200fps of a 140 Berger it's hard to put down the pipe.
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The caveat is you need to be able to see bullet splashes, the little 140gr pills don't make the divot that a 210gr-240gr bullet will make.</div></div>

My son's new rifle will shoot the heavy .30's. I'll let him get a handle on the wind before I shoot my pea-shooter.
grin.gif


John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

Does anybody have any before/after data on the old vs. new 140 Amax? In addition to the AMP jacket, the BC is alleged to have changed.

Wondering if anybody has had a chance to wring them out past 1000-1500 yds?

John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

I have always used .585 as the BC so not sure if it changed. Shooting new lots of Creedmoor ammo and it shoots as good as the old but haven't gone in the 1000-1500 range.
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

jrob, I have shot my 6.5-06 out to a mile with 140 Bergers. I was getting 3175 fps out of them, so at 1760 yards, there were just starting to approach transonic speeds. I had very good results, hitting a 12 inch square steel plate on the third shot, Bohem as a witness. So I can not really speak to subsoninc transition. You will have to wait until I get the chance to shoot 2000 yards again.
As far as BC, the data from Bryan's book is accurate, his BC got me very close on the first shot at a mile.
However, as Bohem said, the seating depth dependency of the Berger VLD is very true. In my throat, 5 thousands made all the difference. My throat ended up liking the bullets just touching the lands, 5 thou into or away from there and I could start to see the groups open up. I would measure my lands distance with a homemade gauge every time before I would sit down to load. Yes, high maintenance, but I had very good results for the effort.
Also, even though it is only 140 gr, I had no trouble seeing bullet splashes at a mile with a NF.
So I only have good things to say about those bullets if you are willing to put in the work.
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

My suspicion is that Berger will be coming out with Hybrids for the 6.5 for just this reason. Lots of performance, but for guys like me, for instance, too much work. I don't want to chase lands. I watch my BR friends go through that and think, "I want a system that's practical".
wink.gif
I also suspect that the hybrids go transonic a little more gracefully.

While I'm at it I'd like to put in my order for a 230g .73 BC Hybrid in .30 cal. please. Could we have that by May? Thank you.

John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your wish may be granted soon.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/03/more-hybrid-bullet-designs-coming-from-berger-bullets/
</div></div>

Thanks for that little tidbit. You just made my day.

"Berger will soon release a new hybrid .30 caliber bullet, with 6mm and 6.5mm hybrid projectiles to follow."

Of course, this makes the waiting no easier.
wink.gif


John
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

I don't play games with numbers. IMHO, the main question about BC is whether or not it's good enough for my rifle to get it to the target at a decent speed. I aim for 1300fps, but will settle for 1200fps.

Drop and drift are what they are. If you're emulating Weatherchart Mozart and going by the book, you need to understand that book works great for folks shooting under the conditions where it was written, all others need to adjust. At that point, it's offering suggestions, and not prescribing precise instructions.

What you and your rifle are going to do is a matter of collaboration, subject to prevailing conditions. The books make good recommendations for getting near the target. After that, it's 'show me and I'll know". You gotta know your gun, your ammo, and what they've done in the past in order to know what it'll do today and tomorrow. We all start off with decent dope, and home in on the 'X' from there. All dope is an estimate. Shooting the same 1Kyd F Class course of fire at the same range month to month, the dope always changed to a small degree between matches. That's just life, plain and simple.

Greg
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also suspect that the hybrids go transonic a little more gracefully.</div></div>


In your area they might. Cold winter days down here? They might be a little more graceful, but they still don't work reliably through the sound barrier for me. (7mm Hybr 180's)
 
Re: 6.5mm Bullet LR/ELR performance

so... still not as reliable in the TS area as Amax's or SMK's? Wow. Whoda thought there was no such thing as a free lunch?

John
 
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