For local gas gun matches (inside 1200y) and possibly a 'yote gun.
6ARC or 224 Valkryie?
6ARC or 224 Valkryie?
- Thread starter A&8's
- Start date
The 6mm is going to have more energy on target and should also aid in spotting misses, the 224 will be faster and flatter but not sure at what point the 6mm will overtake it down range and in the wind.
One of my favorite AR rounds is the 68spc but have allways thought it should have been a 6mm from the start.
One of my favorite AR rounds is the 68spc but have allways thought it should have been a 6mm from the start.
6 ARC all the way. Lots of really good high b.c. 100+gr bullets available, you can form it from Lapua Grendel brass if you want, and shoots flatter at long distance than pretty much anything else in an AR15 platform without going to a .473" or larger bolt face. A big part of the effectiveness is that short Grendel case allowing loooong bullets to fit in the magazine.
I don't own a Valkyrie, but from what I've seen it's a step down from the 6mm Grendel variants. It looks to me like comparing heavies in both, they are similar in velocity but the 6mm has more/better high b.c. options.
I don't own a Valkyrie, but from what I've seen it's a step down from the 6mm Grendel variants. It looks to me like comparing heavies in both, they are similar in velocity but the 6mm has more/better high b.c. options.
I’m not a huge 224V fan. It gets there even at 750-850 yards, but your wind call has to be spot on. I’ve hit at 850 and then sent another round and missed with the same hold. Every shot is a first round shot past 600 yards.
6ARC will do everything the Valkyrie will do... only better with higher BC bullets. Run as long a barrel as you can get by with. I’m very curious about 6ARC barrel life though.
The 6mm Grendel-based cartridges have been around for at least 10 years, and the 6mm PPC for a lot longer than that, so there's a lot of info about this already out there. None of the above are really considered barrel burners; these are pretty small cartridges. Of course that goes out the window for guys rapid firing a lot, but I doubt we'll be seeing too many people doing that with this cartridge.
What about feeding between the two? For as long as I’ve had the itch to have a more boutique caliber in an AR15, I always manage to find a comment or thread about Grendel feeding issues. I would assume any similar round would have its issues based on that. I haven’t done much research regarding 224V or 6.8SPC (parent). Magpul makes a specific mag for the later. I won’t deny ballistic performance gains between the two over some flavor of SPR tailored round. Is bolt longevity a thing here? As the case rim diameter goes up, lesser material exists at the bolt face. Hound me if this is ignorant or fudd like thinking but I mean to be sincere.
No, there have been some issues with Grendel bolts... I'm tired and can't think right now but you can find it online (sorry). Personally never had a problem though. Prefer 6.5G after looking at the data, those 120gr BT's just get it done.
Too many wildcats are being standardized IMO and I bet a lot of people will find that out the hard way when they stop making such and such ammo because it simply doesn't sell past the novelty of it. 6.5G only stuck because it literally had no competition and people were literally begging for it.
I don't recall anyone really screaming for a new 5.56 or 6mm option. It just "happened".
I had this Valkyrie in a class with her Husband shooting a Red 6GT so I got to see two race horses go side by side to distance. With real velocities
We shot to 1230 yards and the 224V was on point, but spotting the misses is really hard, you had to use all the tools to spot the misses. The 224 actually passed the 6GT in my mind around 900 yards, maybe around a 1000. She started to catch up at 800 and I know she overtook them by the end.
Every number I have seen with an ARC has been lame if you ask me...
I have not shot the ARC or have seen one perform at distance, but people are sending me stuff and really who the hell wants a 2600fps 6mm ?
With Berger doing the 85.5 you can ramp up the speed pretty good, I would load that guy and go, but again, spotting does suck after 800 yards with a Valkyrie can't lie, but the round works and shoots well in a bolt gun especially with a little longer barrel. In a Gasser my Valkyrie has been a rockstar, love it.
I was top 15 my first outing with it when I shot Guardian, at the CD Team Safari I was the gasser with a Valkyrie and it had a noticeable advantage over the 223 being shot, and we no issues spotting there, but targets were inside 1000. We were top 20 team and I think I missed 4 shots total with my JP. Adam from JP Called me on a Monday to shoot the match with him on that Thursday. He is their office manager and not a shooter, he was using a PRC and with no prep or practice (we never shot together before) I think the JP Valk was awesome
I suppose you can load the ARC with lighter bullets too, but everything I have seen has been slow as shit to me, hey maybe it works good, can't say have not seen it in action
Every number I have seen with an ARC has been lame if you ask me...
I have not shot the ARC or have seen one perform at distance, but people are sending me stuff and really who the hell wants a 2600fps 6mm ?
With Berger doing the 85.5 you can ramp up the speed pretty good, I would load that guy and go, but again, spotting does suck after 800 yards with a Valkyrie can't lie, but the round works and shoots well in a bolt gun especially with a little longer barrel. In a Gasser my Valkyrie has been a rockstar, love it.
I was top 15 my first outing with it when I shot Guardian, at the CD Team Safari I was the gasser with a Valkyrie and it had a noticeable advantage over the 223 being shot, and we no issues spotting there, but targets were inside 1000. We were top 20 team and I think I missed 4 shots total with my JP. Adam from JP Called me on a Monday to shoot the match with him on that Thursday. He is their office manager and not a shooter, he was using a PRC and with no prep or practice (we never shot together before) I think the JP Valk was awesome
I suppose you can load the ARC with lighter bullets too, but everything I have seen has been slow as shit to me, hey maybe it works good, can't say have not seen it in action
Here’s what you really need to know about wind at a match
Been in a wind kick lately. Here’s what you really need to know about wind when at a match. And it’s not how to read wind down to 1-2mph. The important thing is how to only miss once on a stage. This is assuming your fundamentals are sound and you can spot your shots. As well as assuming you...
www.snipershide.com No that’s cool and at least I’m not out of line. You definitely see a lot of cases just like yours where everything works just fine. I just know that I have lesser luck and would be pulling my hair out. I get less emotional with tweaking mags and such on a bolt action for x, y, and z action/chassis combination.
Like Lowlight said with regards to speed, I definitely don’t think people were asking for that if they were. I can’t talk too much shit as my .308 is doing 2500fps but I shot with a 6 Creedmoor for about a year at the 3k ballpark. Apples to grapes in more than one fashion but still. Don’t know where I was going with that.
@A&8's where you at on this?
Interesting comment since for the same length barrels, the Valkyrie shooting 90gr bullets is running right about the same speeds as the ARC or other Grendel-based wildcats with ~105gr. Heck, my pet 105gr load (admittedly in 243 LBC, so a whole whopping .030" more capacity than the ARC) did better than 2600 in a 16" barrel, and everything I've seen says the Valkyrie needs at least 18"-20" to get there.
You saw what you saw of course, but any chance you were thinking of a different cartridge than the Valkyrie? Or was that 6GT just loaded really mild or with a poor bullet choice? Seems like it should have way outrun the little Valkyrie, being more in between a 6 Dasher and 6x47L.
From what I've seen, most of the guys complaining about feed issues are trying to use 5.56 mags. Using the correct mags (ASC and ELander in my case), the Grendel based rounds have been just as reliable as the SPC-based stuff for me (and I do shoot several of each). Of course there's always someone with feed issues, but it's not real common unless it's user error.
Also, that Magpul 6.8 mag is only for the Six8 lower, it doesn't fit a standard AR15. There are no Pmags for either the SPC or Grendel for standard AR15 lowers.
IMO the bolt thing is a little overblown too. It happens, apparently, but seems to be pretty rare these days as far as I can tell. I've never experienced one, and I don't waste much time with real mild loads in these small cartridges, but then I also go to the trouble of truing my uppers so the bolt lugs contact evenly. YMMV of course.
The 90gr isn’t the best choice for the Valkyrie, just like the 115’s might not be the best choice for the ARC. The Valkyrie shines with the 80gr class bullets. My 80 eld handloads are running at 2950-2975fps and are very precise. The factory FGMM 80.5 berger load is pushing 2920fps from a 24” barrel and has proven to be a sub 3/4moa load. Run those numbers against the 6ARC with 105’s or 108’s.
I haven't shot a 6 ARC, but a valkyrie isn't much more than 5.56. I don't notice anything extra, anyway.
Ran the numbers with your 80gr hand loads vs the 6 ARC 108gr Factory load. 0.2 mil Wind and ~120fps Velocity advantage to your 80gr ELD load at 1,000yds...
I'm building a 6arc for a friend with a 22" bartlein barrel with a seekins upper and handgaurd. I will be handloading for this rifle for him to run in matches. I personally think 100+gr bullets are too heavy. Yeah they can be run but theyre so slow. The first bullet im going to try is 95gr VLD to get a little more speed.
I question both of these rounds, we can run 3000 with an 80eldm out of a 26” .223 bolt gun. Why would we chamber to an exotic like the Valkyrie if we can’t run heavy bullets fast. 80 ELD at 2950 can be achieved with a standard 223.
In a bolt gun id stick with the 223 or if you wanted a hotrod why not a 22dasher or a 6x47. The point is these were designed for the AR platform where they are limited alot more.
At 2.26 max oal?
My vote goes towards the 6MM ARC... for me, the .224 Valkyrie was kind of a let down.
The Valkyrie is a good concept, don't get me wrong... it just never seemed to match the velocities advertised.
And I was concerned about 6MM ARC barrel life... until I read about the lower SAMMI spec chamber pressures used.
The Valkyrie is a good concept, don't get me wrong... it just never seemed to match the velocities advertised.
And I was concerned about 6MM ARC barrel life... until I read about the lower SAMMI spec chamber pressures used.
I'm always the weird guy out, and I get that this in no way answers the OP's original question. But as most of us are handloading anyway, I think I could feel more love for a .22 ARC than either the Valkyrie or the 6mm version of the ARC case. .22 Grendel variations have been around a while, but it seems like a bit more of a chore to go from .264 to .224 as opposed to going down from .243.
Case volume looks to be similar between the two cases, with the ARC being a touch shorter, there should be less bullet poking into the case.
Shouldn't be a big trick to get 75ELD-M's up to 2,950 out of a 20" barrel (ought whack a coyote pretty far out there). Plenty of other bullet offerings for match, varmint, and larger game as well that I'll not bother going into. Point being, it'll do what it'll do (definitely more than a .223) in a package shorter and lighter than my .22BR.
Honestly, it all depends on the outcome of the election. I'm to old and busy to fret chasing down componentry in tough times. Got too many calibers already for no more hunting and shooting than I do. But, if good 6 ARC brass is available (somebody besides Hornady), if somebody is chambering barrels for it and the die situation is figured out, I think I'm gonna try a .22 ARC.
To tell the truth, I think a .22 ARC looks like what the Valkyrie should have been to begin with. I am speaking strictly in terms of AR 15's. I can't get real excited about any of the three options in a bolt gun.
Case volume looks to be similar between the two cases, with the ARC being a touch shorter, there should be less bullet poking into the case.
Shouldn't be a big trick to get 75ELD-M's up to 2,950 out of a 20" barrel (ought whack a coyote pretty far out there). Plenty of other bullet offerings for match, varmint, and larger game as well that I'll not bother going into. Point being, it'll do what it'll do (definitely more than a .223) in a package shorter and lighter than my .22BR.
Honestly, it all depends on the outcome of the election. I'm to old and busy to fret chasing down componentry in tough times. Got too many calibers already for no more hunting and shooting than I do. But, if good 6 ARC brass is available (somebody besides Hornady), if somebody is chambering barrels for it and the die situation is figured out, I think I'm gonna try a .22 ARC.
To tell the truth, I think a .22 ARC looks like what the Valkyrie should have been to begin with. I am speaking strictly in terms of AR 15's. I can't get real excited about any of the three options in a bolt gun.
Good point.
No certainty not AR mag length.
The popular load for the Valkyrie is the 80ELD at 3000fps using H4895 out of a 24" barrel. The New Berger 85 and 88 ELD run right around 2900. Sometimes the higher BC but slower 6mms will not catch up.
Sorry for the delayed reply.
All of the same can be applied to the 6mm as well though; the two cartridges are ballistically more similar than different. The factory loads you mention are very close for both. If you want to compare handloads, my 6mm 90gr TGK load is doing 3150 fps from my 24" barrel, and the 105 BTHP is doing 2840 fps. Run the numbers on those, they are all very close with minor advantages to the 6mm. Knock off 90-100 fps for each load for my 19" barrel. Granted mine is the 243 LBC, but the ARC will do within 30-50 fps of the same numbers. I'll also point out (since there's always that one guy to point out how "weak" the Grendel case is) that while my loads are obviously on the warm side, I've loaded this batch of brass 8 times now and am about to load it up again, so it's within reasonable limits and I haven't had any bolt failures across 3 different rifles either.
Oh yeah, forgot to add one other handload in the mid-range bullet weights like you're talking about - the 6mm 95gr VLD-H at 2950 fps. Some guys are pushing that harder to 3,000, but I settled at 2950. That one is not quite as good as the loads mentioned above though, so I moved on from it.
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I own 2 6mmARC's, an 18" and a 20" and am building a third one right now. This round is nothing short of amazing. Wind drift is almost non existent, I was shooting last week in a 15 MPH cross wind out to 600 yards and only had to dial in .25 MRAD on the scope to hit POA. I load all my ammo and really like the 105gn. Nosler RFD BTHP on top of 24.4gn. of Leverevolution getting 2720FPS with an average SD of 8. The BC for these is 571, thats pretty high. Cost to reload getting a good price on the bullets is right around .35 per round. Very economical round to reload. The gun that I shoot the most is an 18" Odin Works match grade barrel and it shoots .5 MOA all day long with not much effort. Recoil is almost non existent, scope always stays on target, you can actually see your hits through the scope. I am now building another 18" Faxon barreled rifle to the exact same specs as the Odin gun to use for a practice rifle to save the other barrel for shooting in matches. Not that these barrels really wear out fast, they claim similar life as a .223 barrel. This round is optimized and tested using an 18" barrel, that is why the FPS numbers seem a little low, if they had used a 24" barrel the numbers would be higher.
@Dino11
Less wind drift than a 6creed pushing a heavier bullet with a higher BC that is traveling 300fps faster? Almost doesn’t seem possible with the current understanding of physics.
What is the BC of the creed.
I know what I had to do that range session, the flags were almost vertical at almost 90* to the the range. But this range is weird, it's like the wind swirls through it. It can be a total cross wind mid range, but the wind will be behind the bullet down range. very hard to predict.
I know what I had to do that range session, the flags were almost vertical at almost 90* to the the range. But this range is weird, it's like the wind swirls through it. It can be a total cross wind mid range, but the wind will be behind the bullet down range. very hard to predict.
The 110’s have a stated .617G1, and I’m pushing them at 3020fps.
Either way, I’d like to see a 5x5 or 6x5 from your barrel. I believe you’re the same poster that was claiming 0.3moa from factory ammo at 300yds.
I did not claim those numbers, another poster put those numbers on my post. That was on a totally calm day and me having a good day at the range. No matter how you look at this round the wind has very little effect on it. I am going to have to look at those 110 =gn. bullets. your pushing them pretty hard to get over 3000FPS. accuracy has to suffer at that speed, your going past the limit between accuracy and velocity.
A creed or 243 will push 110s over 3000 easy, a 6mmAR/ARC will be 300-400fps slower. I use to shoot 105s at 3050 out of a BRX.
The ARC has more USABLE case capacity and the 224 bore chokes the Valkyrie down. I've been shooting wildcats based off both cases since 2007. Even though we can run higher pressures on the 6.8 case the 6mmAR/ARC always ends up 50-100fps faster than a 224 AR or .224-6.8
Not really suffering at all. There was another node that was even faster but I didn’t want to push it faster. Sub 5fps std. dev and able to hit a 2” plate several times at 500 or 515yds in a match the last time I ran them. The initial load development yielded multiple groups at 100yds that were in the .3moa range.
This same barrel can push 105’s over 3200fps with incredible precision.
I guess you didn’t say 1/3moa, but posting multiple 6-7shot groups that were under 1” when you said they were shot at 300yds is implying the same thing.
Case capacity measured to the top of the neck is a pretty meaningless number. Gotta consider the capacity with a bullet loaded in the case, as Constructor pointed out. There can be significant differences just between different bullets taking up different amount of case capacity, not to mention different cases entirely. For example, compare the 6mm 90gr ELDx and the 90gr TGK - because of the different nose profiles of these bullets, the 90 TGK can be loaded a lot further out of the case, .143" to be exact, (also because the Grendel-based cases have the magazine room to play with, something the Valkyrie is more limited in) and also has a little less bearing surface. The result of those differences is that the 90 ELDx topped out with one full grain of powder less (Lever) and nearly 100 fps behind the 90 TGK.
Also the slightly larger 6mm bore has the surface area advantage over the 22.
Which bullets are you trying to push 2800-2900 fps?
I have a Valkyrie, not an ARC. But I have a box of 80s and 85s I'm going to try and work up a load for. It seems over 2800 should be achievable with at least the 80s, hopefully the 85s as well.
I was thinking from a pure physics standpoint that given f=ma, when f is constant and m goes up, a has to go down. My assumption was flawed because pressure is constant (not force), and when applied over a larger area, f does increase. Obviously gross simplification here, but it's straight in my head now.
I’ve got a 224v jp barreled ar and sold my 6grendel bhw rifle awhile back. I really don’t think one has an advantage over the other, esp since the arc has less case cap than the 6grendel did. I like the 224v simply because I can load with cheap bullets and let my kid practice and practice fundamentals.
honestly I don’t see why anyone would compare the 2 cartridges as there are a lot of better preforming rounds chambered in the ar15 platform. If the arc makes a go of it the Hornady fairy dust the advertising team at Hornady sprinkled on it worked like it did on the 6.5 creed.
honestly I don’t see why anyone would compare the 2 cartridges as there are a lot of better preforming rounds chambered in the ar15 platform. If the arc makes a go of it the Hornady fairy dust the advertising team at Hornady sprinkled on it worked like it did on the 6.5 creed.
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A little more apples to apples with your bolt guns above, I have a bolt gun 6mm ARC with a 28" barrel. I'm getting 2880-2940fps with 110gr A-tips. Top 15 and top 10 finishes in 2-day NRL matches. The factory 52ksi stuff is running in the low 2800's, but when you juice it up to 60-65ksi with a few different spherical powders it comes alive.
18" bolt gun built on a CZ 527 is getting 2750fps with 103 ELDX hand loads. 18" AR barrel is at 2600-2650fps with factory (52ksi) ammo.
IMO the velocity/BC numbers between the 224V and 6 ARC in a bolt gun are very close. In an AR with factory ammo, the heavies work better in the ARC. I got in on some of the early development of 224V stuff and it was a disaster. The ARC in AR's is much easier to get the heavies to shoot well in my experience.
"a lot of better preforming rounds chambered in the ar15 platform"
Really? Like what?
A lot of people are getting 3000fps out of the 80 ELD and 24" barrel using H4895, stiff load but doable. Check out the Valkyrie facebook page.
Off the top of my head
6mmfatrat
6mm turbo 40 improved
6 grendel
6br
240 tomahawk
I’m sure there is many more. They just don’t have hornady backing them.
All of the above except the Tomahawk are right in the same ballpark as the ARC with barely any velocity difference between them; they're hardly "a lot better cartridges" when they're effectively almost the same. If you think any of the Grendel-based rounds are significantly faster, you're comparing hot loads vs std pressure; apples and oranges. The capacity difference of the improved fat rat and turbo 40 isn't worth as much as the overly hot loads some use would imply - do the math on the actual case capacity. The Tomahawk is inferior because the case is too long for heavy bullets, and the 6 BR takes a special bolt and extension so good luck with that.
And none of those are factory cartridges. If you can't understand why anyone would compare the two best long-distance factory cartridges for an AR15, that's on you.
The two best “factory long-distance ar15 cartridges? Compared to what? The 223rem?? I’m glad Hornady doesn’t get to decide what we shoot based solely on what’s factory available. I’ve had a 6 fatrat and a6br in an ar15 platform and if you think there is no advantage over the arc using either of these cartridges I can’t help you. Essentially the fatrat and turbo 40imp are dasherized 6 grendels. Hornady actually went the other way with the arc. I guess you need to tell the brx bra and dasher guys their cartridges are no better than a standard 6br. Do the math. It makes a difference.
My 6br was built using a 458 sotcom bolt and the only problem I ever had with it is I broke an extractor one time so IMO it’s a viable cartridge for the ar15. Took awhile for you to respond.... I could almost hear your Google search engine starting up.
A couple of thinking points. There is more to "performance" than external ballistics.
- The shoulder being pushed back on the ARC allows for seating most of the heaviest 6mm VLD bullets within magazine length without stuffing the bullet too deep into the case (see 224V 88/90gr accuracy issues in AR's).
- I've not seen any real-world pressure data on any 6mm Rat, 6mm fat rat, 6AR turbo 40, etc... Everything I have seen is quickload predictions and experimental data where the only yard stick is excessive pressure signs on cases/primers. I can tell you from first hand experience that "pressure signs" can show up anywhere from 50-70ksi (verified in a SAAMI test barrel) and it depends on the gun/barrel as to when they decided to show. Gas guns typically show up sooner, but if the gas system is tuned right it can be 60+ksi before you see them. Bolt guns are typically 68-73ksi or more before you see signs.
-40 degree shoulders are a bastard for brass companies to form, and are notorious for feeding issues. I can't speak for the turbo-40 specifically but as much as people already bitch about grendel mags, if the 40 degree shoulder hurts at all it's a deal breaker for lots of potential market (aka. success/longevity of the cartridge)
It was a compromise, as all cartridges are, that offers an efficient little cartridge with 95% of the performance of the hottest AR turbo encapsulator 40 cartridge, that is easy to make, easy to load for, easy for gun makers to make work, etc... Could it have been a little bit longer case and optimized around a new 95gr ELD-M that might perform better within the practical range of the cartridge, sure. Even so, it amounts to a couple of clicks on your scope and I've never shot an animal that said, "Wow that only felt like 1500 ft-lb, glad it wasn't the 40 degree improved!"...
- The shoulder being pushed back on the ARC allows for seating most of the heaviest 6mm VLD bullets within magazine length without stuffing the bullet too deep into the case (see 224V 88/90gr accuracy issues in AR's).
- I've not seen any real-world pressure data on any 6mm Rat, 6mm fat rat, 6AR turbo 40, etc... Everything I have seen is quickload predictions and experimental data where the only yard stick is excessive pressure signs on cases/primers. I can tell you from first hand experience that "pressure signs" can show up anywhere from 50-70ksi (verified in a SAAMI test barrel) and it depends on the gun/barrel as to when they decided to show. Gas guns typically show up sooner, but if the gas system is tuned right it can be 60+ksi before you see them. Bolt guns are typically 68-73ksi or more before you see signs.
-40 degree shoulders are a bastard for brass companies to form, and are notorious for feeding issues. I can't speak for the turbo-40 specifically but as much as people already bitch about grendel mags, if the 40 degree shoulder hurts at all it's a deal breaker for lots of potential market (aka. success/longevity of the cartridge)
It was a compromise, as all cartridges are, that offers an efficient little cartridge with 95% of the performance of the hottest AR turbo encapsulator 40 cartridge, that is easy to make, easy to load for, easy for gun makers to make work, etc... Could it have been a little bit longer case and optimized around a new 95gr ELD-M that might perform better within the practical range of the cartridge, sure. Even so, it amounts to a couple of clicks on your scope and I've never shot an animal that said, "Wow that only felt like 1500 ft-lb, glad it wasn't the 40 degree improved!"...
@Ledzep
great post, good comments. One question: you cite a new 95gr ELD-M bullet - is this a potential bullet or is this something Hornady has announced? I agree with you this is the right bullet weight for this cartridge. A 0.50 G1 BC doing 2850-2900 in a 18-20" gasser would be a very attractive upgrade for the 6ARC's potential.
Regarding that, I'm actually shooting some solids in my 6 ARC, Flatline 88gr and 95gr's. These should do over 2900fps from 18-20" gassers, with G1 BCs at 0.5 to 0.6. Very potent combo.
Wishful theoretical thinking...
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