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6cm for light hunting/steel rig, input wanted!

4O6shootist

F. J. B.
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 5, 2021
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Current components in hand:
EvoSS 2 dbm action
Mesa altitude m5, bart #4 inlet
Hawkins hunter dbm
BnA Dakota trigger

I've got an excess of 6mm bullets, so going with 6cm over 65cm. Rifle will be yotes/antelope/deer/steel gun. Likely getting a 26" bartlein #4 carbon that my smith will cut. Down to 24.5 or so.

Who's killed deer sized game with a 6creed? I've got 105hyb, 107smk, 108 elite hunter, 109 hyb, 109 eldm, 110smk, 112 match burners, and 115 dtacs. Likely leaning to the 108s, but the bc or the 110+ grain bullets at creed speeds is hard to look away from.
 
Everyone and their grandpa. Except it was called 243 Winchester at the time.
agreed, but slow twist and lighter, non match bullets. Just mainly looking for input on killing with 6mm match bullets.
 
Lots of info out there about hunting with match bullets. I'd stick with the 108s.
Straight from Berger FAQ

Can I use my Target bullets for Hunting?

We do not recommend that you use Target bullets for hunting. The wound channel with a Target bullet is narrow compared to the wound channel of a Hunting bullet. The wider wound channel produced by the Hunting bullet is more likely to impact vital organs if the shot placement is not ideal.
 
Lots of info out there about hunting with match bullets. I'd stick with the 108s.
Straight from Berger FAQ

Can I use my Target bullets for Hunting?

We do not recommend that you use Target bullets for hunting. The wound channel with a Target bullet is narrow compared to the wound channel of a Hunting bullet. The wider wound channel produced by the Hunting bullet is more likely to impact vital organs if the shot placement is not ideal.
I've just never hunted deer sized game with a 6mm. Ive killed a lot of deer antelope and elk with berger hybrids and jlk vld bullets in the past. Just keep em moving fast with high rpm and expansion shouldn't be a problem.
 
I have shot an entire room full of heads with a 6 creed. Fallow deer, Axis, Blackbuck, whitetail. My wife is taking her 6 creed to Africa in a few weeks and I have no doubt it will do as it has always done for us….kill shit!

108ELD-M, 109 Hybrids, and 108 Elite hunters all worked well.

Hell I shot 2 whitetails past 400 with my 6BRA running 110 atips at 2820. Both bang-flop
 
Get the PVA Cayuga 100gr bullets.
Don't have the twist. They require 7, at creed velocity I'd fear a 7tw tearing up conventional jacket bullets once the barrel gets a lil fire cracking going on. With a 7.5tw and bullets traveling over 3050 I'm approaching 300k rpms. 7tw would be around 320k.
 
I have shot an entire room full of heads with a 6 creed. Fallow deer, Axis, Blackbuck, whitetail. My wife is taking her 6 creed to Africa in a few weeks and I have no doubt it will do as it has always done for us….kill shit!

108ELD-M, 109 Hybrids, and 108 Elite hunters all worked well.
That's what i like to hear. Have those all at my disposal.
 
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Don't have the twist. They require 7, at creed velocity I'd fear a 7tw tearing up conventional jacket bullets once the barrel gets a lil fire cracking going on. With a 7.5tw and bullets traveling over 3050 I'm approaching 300k rpms. 7tw would be around 320k.
Dont mess with the PVA bullets, they are finicky and there are way too many proven bullets out there that are more cost effective and are far easier to get shooting well.
 
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110 atip from my match rifle at just shy of 500.
F51518E5-FD2E-4246-AF00-E662D9AD11C0.jpeg
 
Doing the same here. Have a Bartlein 7.5 twist, 22" CFW #4 ready to be spun up.
Bought 400 rounds of Berger factory ammo with 105 hybrid (back when they were plentiful and cheap) so will have great brass for reloading.
Have friends who have killed elk, deer and antelope with the 105 hybrid so rolling with that, plus the 108 elite hunter.
 
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Man you should have just bought my rifle and cut the barrels down! LOL ;)

Seeing as the 6 Creed has .243 ballistics I am sure and of those bullets will take deer sized game and even lighter bullets that .243 shooters have used for years on deer.
 
Have killed a few deer and antelope with 108 ELD's and a deer with a 109 Hybrid. No issues, but I used the Hybrid cause I was in a time crunch, not necessarily because I thought it was the best choice.

I'd personally use the 108 or 109 ELD or a 108 Berger Hunter if setting up specifically for that purpose. Based mostly on reputation and extrapolation from experience with related bullets, as it isn't like I have a statistically meaningful sample size of game killed with any 6mm bullet.
 
Don't have the twist. They require 7, at creed velocity I'd fear a 7tw tearing up conventional jacket bullets once the barrel gets a lil fire cracking going on. With a 7.5tw and bullets traveling over 3050 I'm approaching 300k rpms. 7tw would be around 320k.
If your bullet of choice can’t handle a 7 twist out of a creed you need to throw them in the trash. It shouldn’t be an issue as evidenced by the thousands of them on the firing line every day.
I wouldn’t worry about any of those that you have listed so far. Might be a concern with a 60 grain going 4k fps, not a normal bullet.
 
If your bullet of choice can’t handle a 7 twist out of a creed you need to throw them in the trash. It shouldn’t be an issue as evidenced by the thousands of them on the firing line every day.
I wouldn’t worry about any of those that you have listed so far. Might be a concern with a 60 grain going 4k fps, not a normal bullet.

True. I shoot the 108 elds and 110 ATip in a 7 twist with no blow ups.
 
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Thanks for the info guys. I run 6gt and 6bra for prs rigs with 7.5tw barrels and run 105-110gr bullets around 2900, never any issues with stability/bc loss as base elevation here is 2500' and in summer at most events da is 4000-7000'. Bullet performance on game can be affected by twist rates at close range impacts with the velocities high, usually showing excessive expansion and fragmentation at shallow depths due to hihh rpms. Although I rarely take shots under 200y in our open country here. If a close encounter does present itself I usually attempt head/neck shots in event of the bullets grenading.
 
I find a little humor in the “can I kill a deer with this” and the very serious determination that a 7 twist over a 7.5 will cause jacket and bullet blow-up problems.


FYI, a LOT of deer fall to the .223 every year.
With an accurate rifle, a 6mm will do just fine.

And yeah, that BA Rob has for sale is a great deal.
I just dont need yet another……😉
 
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You have a suppressor? If so cut the barrel down to 16” or 18” and use the 105s. If you’re diligent about using ear pro, and don’t have a suppressor, I’d still do that. It’ll still have enough ass for everything you want to do with it, but having a short, light, tack driving rifle is a freaking joy in the field. 6mm/.243 kills just fine…actually outstandingly well on deer size game.
 
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Absolutely not!
Deer are incredibly tough animals.
Anything that matches the impact energy of a 225 Buick Electra at 70mph is absolute minimum for deer.
I've seen deer run off from a quarter ton pickup.
Choose your cartridge accordingly.
Yup. In So. Texas a 300 RUM is pretty much the minimum for doe meat hunts...
 
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.243AI which is not different enough to 6CM to write home about, out of a 24". 500m, 115gr pointed RDF, 3100fps from shooting sticks. This is a blesbok which is like a moderately big deer with kinda long legs (it's an antelope not a deer though) and is tough as nails upside American deer. 1 shot well placed did the trick. Poked through both shoulders. Bullet expanded to about .40cal judging by the exit hole but tracked straight through taking out important plumbing and suspension components on its way. A fast 6mm of any stripe is bliksem.
image-from-ios-21.jpg
 
.243AI which is not different enough to 6CM to write home about, out of a 24". 500m, 115gr pointed RDF, 3100fps from shooting sticks. This is a blesbok which is like a moderately big deer with kinda long legs (it's an antelope not a deer though) and is tough as nails upside American deer. 1 shot well placed did the trick. Poked through both shoulders. Bullet expanded to about .40cal judging by the exit hole but tracked straight through taking out important plumbing and suspension components on its way. A fast 6mm of any stripe is bliksem.
image-from-ios-21.jpg

Stop lying. You know your PH finished him off with two well placed shots from his .600 Nitro double.
 
Stop lying. You know your PH finished him off with two well placed shots from his .600 Nitro double.
Nah... Callsign Krieger delivered the coup d'grace. He turned his ass toward the buck and squeezed really hard which launched his head at the buck with terrifying force. Fortunately for the pelt and meat he missed but the sonic boom killed the buck and then the really weird thing happened. Krieger seemed to have gotten confused or something because his bent over and headless corpse just turned around and around for a few hours. Eventually we all heard this otherworldly booming sound and Krieger stood back up really suddenly like he was being inflated from the inside. Then he reached down and tried to pull his head out of his ass but he couldn't so he just walked away. Legend says he's still walking across the veld unsure about what happened to the blesbok.
 
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I would build a 243 Win since it is a great 6mm. It has been held back for decades because factories that mass produce rifles have never given it a faster twist barrel.

I will not build stupid cartridges that have no reason to exist other than they are new when older non-proprietary cartridges exist that are either as good or better than the newer cartridge. More companies make brass including match grade brass in 308 blank brass or 243 brass and normal brass for 243.

I and my oldest son have killed all kinds of game with 243 Win with both stock rifles and with custom fast twist barreled rifles. Millions of people have killed everything from Elk to Coyote with 243 Win. Not sure millions of people own a 6CM and even less sure that millions have killed. A lot of people have also used 243 Win for F-Class, Silhouette and NRA Hipower X-Course including David Tubb.

Some especialy like the 243 AI and have shot inside the 6.5 and 7mm cartridges in F-Class.

I am hoping some idiot will trim CM case so it holds just a few more grains than the 30-30 Win and will make a 30-30CM so I can sit back and laugh at all the people that pop up wanting to build 30-30CM to gain 50fps or even 100fps and pay 3X as much for ammo and brass from just one supplier of mediocre brass with no significant increase in down range killing effect on actual game animals at actual ranges practical for the bullet and cartridge combo!

I am going to let this top secret info out of the bag since we are discussing CM cartridges. On ballistic Gelatin with the same bullets used and the same brand of ammo used there is no statically significant difference in performance between 6.5CM and 6.5PRC. On game animals no significant difference on game animals between the 6.5CM and the 6.5PRC. On paper the 6.5PRC does put up better numbers but on game and ballistic gel they perform the same.

This also explains why we do not see any enhanced lethality between the 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 6.5CM or 6.5PRC numbers on paper do not always reflect performance on game! Likewise 6CM has not produced any better field results than the 243 Win and given the same barrels and twist rates both will perform so close to identically that it is not even a contest it is 6 of one and half a dozen of another. The only place it would matter is for those that do not hand load and those with out custom built rifles.

It is hard to find any brass right now or loaded ammo but I have seen and have bought 243 ammo over the Pandemic. I have seen and purchased 6.5CM ammo as well and 30-06, 308 Win and 45-70. No place I shop has had 6CM ammo or brass that I have seen during the pandemic.

🙄 factory 6CM ammo has remained readily available and priced well below 243 ammo (when you could find it) during the lastest ammo craze.

Please list up all the readily available factory match ammo for a 243, I’ll wait.

Sure a 243 is a great cartridge but a 6CM is better b/c factory rifles are properly twisted and factory ammo is readily available along with premium brass from various manufacturers. If going the custom route and hand loading, then it’s a toss up.

Based on your logic, you are prob still using a landline or a flip phone at best.
 
I just picked up a case of 6CM match ammo for $23/box. That's just as cheap/cheaper than current basic hunting 243 ammo.

And it isn't like 6 Creed is niche. Brass is made/sold by Hornady, Federal, Lapua, Peterson, Starline, Nosler, Sig, and Remington. Factory ammo is also made with hunting and match bullets from major manufacturers while 243 is basically a hunting only cartridge when using factory ammo and barrels.

Long story short, if you are starting with nothing 6CM is the correct answer. More options with no extra cost vs 243 Win.
 
I would build a 243 Win since it is a great 6mm. It has been held back for decades because factories that mass produce rifles have never given it a faster twist barrel.

I will not build stupid cartridges that have no reason to exist other than they are new when older non-proprietary cartridges exist that are either as good or better than the newer cartridge. More companies make brass including match grade brass in 308 blank brass or 243 brass and normal brass for 243.

I and my oldest son have killed all kinds of game with 243 Win with both stock rifles and with custom fast twist barreled rifles. Millions of people have killed everything from Elk to Coyote with 243 Win. Not sure millions of people own a 6CM and even less sure that millions have killed. A lot of people have also used 243 Win for F-Class, Silhouette and NRA Hipower X-Course including David Tubb.

Some especialy like the 243 AI and have shot inside the 6.5 and 7mm cartridges in F-Class.

I am hoping some idiot will trim CM case so it holds just a few more grains than the 30-30 Win and will make a 30-30CM so I can sit back and laugh at all the people that pop up wanting to build 30-30CM to gain 50fps or even 100fps and pay 3X as much for ammo and brass from just one supplier of mediocre brass with no significant increase in down range killing effect on actual game animals at actual ranges practical for the bullet and cartridge combo!

I am going to let this top secret info out of the bag since we are discussing CM cartridges. On ballistic Gelatin with the same bullets used and the same brand of ammo used there is no statically significant difference in performance between 6.5CM and 6.5PRC. On game animals no significant difference on game animals between the 6.5CM and the 6.5PRC. On paper the 6.5PRC does put up better numbers but on game and ballistic gel they perform the same.

This also explains why we do not see any enhanced lethality between the 6.5x55, 260 Rem, 6.5CM or 6.5PRC numbers on paper do not always reflect performance on game! Likewise 6CM has not produced any better field results than the 243 Win and given the same barrels and twist rates both will perform so close to identically that it is not even a contest it is 6 of one and half a dozen of another. The only place it would matter is for those that do not hand load and those with out custom built rifles.

It is hard to find any brass right now or loaded ammo but I have seen and have bought 243 ammo over the Pandemic. I have seen and purchased 6.5CM ammo as well and 30-06, 308 Win and 45-70. No place I shop has had 6CM ammo or brass that I have seen during the pandemic.
1. Still is.
2. Judgement of a thing as stupid in a blanket statement which ignores any nuance is probably the judgement failure. That's making a conscious decision to not use something that performs identically to something else while doing so more efficiently.
3. Interesting that you'd drag David into this. There's a particular reason that he uses 6XC. It takes 5gr less powder to do the same job which it does with better brass and barrel life.
4. Argument from popularity is no argument at all especially when your own (#3) examples throw shade at your statement. 243win is a shitty case design because it wasn't designed it was adapted, badly, from an existing poor case design meant to do a specific job where compromises had to be made to sustain fully automatic fire. 243 win suffers greatly from its tapered case and shallow shoulder angle in terms of brass growth, bore erosion and generally crap efficiency upside a .243AI or 6SLR or 6CM. Just because not very good was good enough for generations doesn't make it good enough now.
5. Hoping for people to behave in a way you can laugh at them for is pretty childish and a symptom of low self-esteem.
6. There's nothing top secret about the fact that 6.5's don't really deliver much different performance across a wide range of velocities. It's been known for literally 50 years. Just not many people are able to move past racing paper for fun and profit.
7. Redundant paragraph is redundant.
8. Waving hands around about what's odd during an odd situation doesn't speak of very clear thinking. That said, it was easier to find 6CM over the past 2 years than it was 243win probably because it's not as common as a hunting cartridge and it is WILDLY more common in match use where handloading is the norm in which case brass and loaded ammo are not likely to be common anyway.

Contradicting arguments nobody is making is called a straw man fallacy. That can be excused as emotionality. Not making a fact based point that holds up to the littlest bit of scrutiny, that's a little harder to excuse. Contradicting your own argument (the blurb about .243AI), well that's just sloppy thinking.
 
"just shy of 500"

How are they at 50?
From the gel testing I've seen you can expect core/jacket separation at a minimum. Really close with high impact velocity seems to make for good but not great penetration, a couple inches of neck in the wound channel before expansion starts and then very violent expansion with significant fragmentation. Below is a decent example of moderate range impact velocity vs. short range impact velocity. They do not seem like a great hunting bullet in any case. Core jacket separation is basically a given. Definitely take advantage of fast forward.

 
@fclassparadise 243 is a good round, however with the low shoulder angle ansd short neck, throat life is quite short when ran hard. A 243 ai barrel will last longer than conventional even when hot rod due to the increase of shoulder angle. A 243 with long freebore will not run in aics mags with high bc bullete seatee above neck shoulder junction. 260 is a great round, but custom reamers are needed to utilize it properly and once again, exceeding magazine lengths. 65x55 is cool, I'd prefer an improved version, but then you have essentially a 6.5x284. Everythings been done before, multiple times. But factory support for excellent brass is more readily available in the creed chambers as is quality match ammo.
 
am hoping some idiot will trim CM case so it holds just a few more grains than the 30-30 Win and will make a 30-30CM so I can sit back and laugh at all the people that pop up wanting to build 30-30CM to gain 50fps or even 100fps and pay 3X as much for ammo and brass from just one supplier of mediocre brass with no significant increase in down range killing effect on actual game animals at actual ranges practical for the
Come on. No one is dumb enough to remake and rename, and remarked the 300Savage as the 30 Creedmoor........surely not.
 
I like this question, ive been recently building a 6mm arc and have been surprised just how close balistically it is to the 243 also. Sure there is some difference in velocity but not enough to really change how the bullet performs in game. Mostly just a slight bit more drop to account for. Out of a ar15 or micro bolt gun to boot.
 
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