Hi Guys, I'm thinking of doing a 7-300wsm SA build and was wondering if i could use the 180 VLD (or possibly Hybrids) while still fitting in a short action Alpha wsm mag. COAL restriction would be around 2.95-6 (Max Oal in mag is 2.97). The pointed 180gr hunting vld has an almost identical (possibly better) G7 as the 180 Hybrid unpointed. This would be mainly a hunting rig, but i may target shoot long range with it in the future. Any ideas if this is even possible? I want to keep it a short action, but i will step down to the 162-168gr bullets if 180 mag feed is not possible. Any and every response is welcome and appreciated (as long as its constructive, trolls be damned). Thanks for the help Guys!
- Thread starter 7mmShooter
- Start date
It will work, but bullets will be seated DEEP. That'll mean a small decrease in velocity potential, and careful brass prep so as to steer clear of donuts.
ETA: 300/270WSM case length is 2.100". 180 hybrid ogive length (from front edge of bearing surface to meplat) is ~.850", and ~.760" for the VLD.
So both bullets will have ogive ahead of the case mouth loaded to 2.950".
ETA: 300/270WSM case length is 2.100". 180 hybrid ogive length (from front edge of bearing surface to meplat) is ~.850", and ~.760" for the VLD.
So both bullets will have ogive ahead of the case mouth loaded to 2.950".
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Thanks for the quick reply HodgdonExtreme! I knew there would be a velocity loss, but I will probably just put a longer barrel on it to get back some of that lost speed. Yeah, I knew the donuts would be a factor to watch out for when prepping brass. What brass would you reccommend using 270WSM or 300WSM? In your opinion, would it even be worth trying to run the 180 Hunting VLD or Hybrid in a short action vs, running the 168 Hunting VLD or 162 AMAX?
I am NOT a hunter, so all I can do in recommending bullets is regurgitate what I read/see around here and long range hunting. Seems I've seen a lot of pictures of awesome game harvested via 180 hunting VLD ala 7wsm. Run the numbers in JBM considering ~3050fps for a ~165gr bullet vs. ~2925 for a 180. Those should be very attainable velocities for you. Maybe you'll get more, but you certainly won't get less.
I doubt your velocity loss will amount to more than 50fps, that's what my short action 284 gives up to a long action, plus the percentage of overall case capacity my 284 loses due to deep seating is greater than yours will be with the wsm.
My experience is ALWAYS choose necking down instead of necking up if you've got the choice; donuts always seem less an issue when necking down. Either way, neck turning is probably going to be in order, but donut elimination is very technique dependent when you've necked up.
From what I have seen from testing and other input from various sources (icluding Bryan Litz) pointing the 168 and 180 hunting VLDs raise the B.Cs to the ballpark of .323 and .344 respectively. The 180 Hybrid on the other hand, goes to the ballpark of .372 which is a marked improvement (around 8%). Even when running the Hybrids pointed, I dont believe the B.C difference would be enough to overcome the velocity difference (also considering the difference in lenth for mag feeding). If I could be confident of reliable feeding with the Hybrids and reliable terminal performance, there would be no other competition as far as 7mm goes.
Now on to the Brass, I would of most likely chosen the 300wsm brass to use because I always hear of it being used when doing a wsm wildcat. The thing is, the 270wsm brass is quite a bit cheaper from what ive seen, so i dont know if the cost would outweigh the difference/complexity of the prep. Again, Thanks for your help! It is much appreciated!
Now on to the Brass, I would of most likely chosen the 300wsm brass to use because I always hear of it being used when doing a wsm wildcat. The thing is, the 270wsm brass is quite a bit cheaper from what ive seen, so i dont know if the cost would outweigh the difference/complexity of the prep. Again, Thanks for your help! It is much appreciated!
Bottom line is the 168s will be flatter, the 180s will drift less and deliver more energy.
I suspect both are fully capable of taking most game, even out to 1000 yards. HOWEVER! I'm not a hunter, so please do due diligence in researching what velocity each of these bullets needs to operate correctly. Also consider sectional density and penetration requirements!
I've only ever shot white tail, and those flimsy little creatures die from about any decent shot, regardless of velocity or bullet choice.
Parting thought: If both 168 and 180 will deliver the terminal ballistics you need, you'll need to have a "come to Jesus" moment with yourself and decide if a flat trajectory, or a bit more forgiveness in wind call will provide you with more advantage. Don't think about those one in a million shots. Think about the shots you know you'll be presented with.
I suspect both are fully capable of taking most game, even out to 1000 yards. HOWEVER! I'm not a hunter, so please do due diligence in researching what velocity each of these bullets needs to operate correctly. Also consider sectional density and penetration requirements!
I've only ever shot white tail, and those flimsy little creatures die from about any decent shot, regardless of velocity or bullet choice.
Parting thought: If both 168 and 180 will deliver the terminal ballistics you need, you'll need to have a "come to Jesus" moment with yourself and decide if a flat trajectory, or a bit more forgiveness in wind call will provide you with more advantage. Don't think about those one in a million shots. Think about the shots you know you'll be presented with.
On brass: Who cares about ~$20 difference per hundred between 270 and 300 for a hunter? I'm a frugal bastard too, but put the price difference in perspective with the cost of rifle, optics, accessories, tags, guides, accommodations, travel etc etc.
Get the stuff that has the highest chance of working properly for you.
Get the stuff that has the highest chance of working properly for you.
H-EX gave good advice. If I may add something of relevance to a fellow NYer...
I have a short throated 7WSM on a Surgeon SA. Messed with the 180VLDs some when first developing loads, but now only bother with the 162Amax and 168Bergers. Luckily I stockpiled the 162s before the glut, and they fly really really well @ the limited c.o.a.l. of a short action. Just make sure your 'smith throats your chamber accordingly! GAP built my rifle and they knew exactly how to throat the 7WSM for a SA. This is a 162Amax in an Alpha mag, seated .010 off the lands:
As for killing ability, the 162Amaxs are plenty good for killing deer. So much so, I haven't even bothered to load any more 168VLDs. We've taken about 10 whitetails now, out to 700yds with the 162s. Tough bullet, and they will pass thru on a broadside boiler room hit, even @ 600+ yds. If you hit a shoulder and break one down, this is what you'll prolly find under the offside pelt...
If you've got your heart set on the 180s, do a LA. Otherwise, rock on with the 162s-168s...
Good luck with your project!
I have a short throated 7WSM on a Surgeon SA. Messed with the 180VLDs some when first developing loads, but now only bother with the 162Amax and 168Bergers. Luckily I stockpiled the 162s before the glut, and they fly really really well @ the limited c.o.a.l. of a short action. Just make sure your 'smith throats your chamber accordingly! GAP built my rifle and they knew exactly how to throat the 7WSM for a SA. This is a 162Amax in an Alpha mag, seated .010 off the lands:
As for killing ability, the 162Amaxs are plenty good for killing deer. So much so, I haven't even bothered to load any more 168VLDs. We've taken about 10 whitetails now, out to 700yds with the 162s. Tough bullet, and they will pass thru on a broadside boiler room hit, even @ 600+ yds. If you hit a shoulder and break one down, this is what you'll prolly find under the offside pelt...
If you've got your heart set on the 180s, do a LA. Otherwise, rock on with the 162s-168s...
Good luck with your project!
Thanks guys, H-EX, I get what your saying and will certainly take those tips into consideration. Knockemdown, may i ask what Coal you are running the Amaxes at? the Alpha mags are 2.97 internal oal if im not mistaken. As far as running the 180s, I was curious as if it could be done, but I will almost surely go with the 162-8 class bullets. Haha, actually this project is a product of finding a lefty savage model 16 stainless in wsm, which are kinda rare (no wsm offered in a lefty 16 new) and also Im kinda getting sick of not being able to stay on the gun when cycling the bolt on my 7mm Rem Mag. (Ive busted my nose countless times running it too quick). Thanks again for the help Guys! Oh and Knock, what barrel length and ballpark velocity are you getting with your straight 7wsm, if you dont mind me asking?
IIRC, I'm loading @ 2.945" now.
24" Broughton 5c, 1:9" twist
2940 fps, very mild load, but it hammers...
If I were to spec a 7WSM right now, it'd be on a LA, with a 28" tube hangin' off the front...
Good luck & have fun with your build!
24" Broughton 5c, 1:9" twist
2940 fps, very mild load, but it hammers...
If I were to spec a 7WSM right now, it'd be on a LA, with a 28" tube hangin' off the front...
Good luck & have fun with your build!
I've got my 7WSM on a short action, mag fed with a .050" throat.
7th reload on prepped Win brass, ~1100 rounds through the bore.
175 smks and other slick bullets are about .060" longer depending on the meplat. The 180 smks are pretty stubby.
I'm not hotrodding this rifle and this barrel runs abnormally high pressure/velocity on the published loads, but it seems to do just fine.
Nothing wrong with a WSM on a SA. If you want one, go for it.
7th reload on prepped Win brass, ~1100 rounds through the bore.
175 smks and other slick bullets are about .060" longer depending on the meplat. The 180 smks are pretty stubby.
I'm not hotrodding this rifle and this barrel runs abnormally high pressure/velocity on the published loads, but it seems to do just fine.
Nothing wrong with a WSM on a SA. If you want one, go for it.
Knockemdown. Nice, thats some pretty good performance I would say, especially for a 24in tube on a short action! If i pull the trigger and pick up that 300wsm, i will probably shoot the HSM 210 hunting vld ammo out of it until i can get the cash to have a new barrel chambered and throated for the 168 vlds. the 210s in 30 cal come close to duplicating the B.c of the 168s (better actually), so the ballistcs should be somewhat close. and as far as length, i woul have to agree with you on the 28" length man! Thanks for the advice, and Good Luck and enjoy that sweet GAP!
I've got my 7WSM on a short action, mag fed with a .050" throat.
7th reload on prepped Win brass, ~1100 rounds through the bore.
175 smks and other slick bullets are about .060" longer depending on the meplat. The 180 smks are pretty stubby.
I'm not hotrodding this rifle and this barrel runs abnormally high pressure/velocity on the published loads, but it seems to do just fine.
Nothing wrong with a WSM on a SA. If you want one, go for it.
mcfred, thats some pretty good performance and accuracy. I never really gave the 180smk a thought, what would you say the g7 would be, as compared to a 180gr berger?
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Also curious as to the dies needed. Could i use 270wsm dies with 7mm bushings or would i have to go 300wsm dies with appropriate bushings? The reason I ask is because my Father may get a 270wsm in the future and it would save on having to buy a whole new set of dies for his 270wsm. Any ideas guys?
I use the .300 WSM redding comp dies with the bushing. Apa built me a rifle chambered in 300WSM/7mm. Super flat and accurate. I have since rebarreled the rifle and have all the components for reloading if your interested.
KJ
KJ
Yes, kjoens I would certainly be interested in those components, but I still would like to know if 270wsm dies can be used with a bushing change. Die purchases would be much simpler if I could use one set of dies with seperate bushings for both calibers. Thanks for your help man!
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No problem. I don't know if you can use the .270 WSM dies or not. Jared called it the 7 BAT. I traded the rifle with a friend, then got it back after he had it rebarreled in .308. Never did put the 7 barrel back on. Shoot me a pm whenever you decide.
KJ
KJ
Nice, thats one hell of a U turn. Will certainly let you know if i decide to buy those supplies from you. 7 BAT huh, is that his own variation of the 7-300wsm?
Just what he called it. I initially set it up to shoot a 1000 yard match at manatee, but have gotten into the PRS matches instead so I decided to go another route. Mine was set up as a single shot. I have the barrel still in my safe, just don't think ill set it up again. I have a buddy that wants to build a 7 so I think he's going to get the barrel.
KJ
KJ
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KJ, Nice. How do you like the PRS matches? And which route did you end up going if I may ask? Repeater with DBM setup im sure.
7SHTR
7SHTR
270wsm size die will work with appropriate bushing, but seater is a no go because a .284" bullet don't fit in the .2775"bore. You'll have to have it bores/ground out. I know a tool/die guy that'll do this for fair money.
300wsm seater has opposite problem. .284" bullet fits the .3085" bore like a hotdog down a hallway. It'll "work", but not ideal.
A 7WSM seater will work fine, especially if you use the competition one, where the case body engages the sliding sleeve to align it.
"Best" solution is ground out 270wsm die.
300wsm seater has opposite problem. .284" bullet fits the .3085" bore like a hotdog down a hallway. It'll "work", but not ideal.
A 7WSM seater will work fine, especially if you use the competition one, where the case body engages the sliding sleeve to align it.
"Best" solution is ground out 270wsm die.
Ok, Thanks H-EX. So I would be fine using 270wsm dies (with the 7mm bushings), EXCEPT for the seating die, correct. And as referenced to one of my earlier posts, I ask about the 270wsm dies (and Brass) because of my Father potentially purchasing a 270wsm in the future. Thanks for all he help!
7SHTR
7SHTR
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The PRS matches are great, at least KM's are. That's the only one I've shot at. A lot of fun and a good group of guys. Well worth the money to go shoot one. I'm gonna try to hit at least one a year.
I shot my .308, Bartlein 22" in an A5 with the bushnell DMR for a scope. Ended up in 55th place out of 100. I had hopes for the top 25 but that was short lived. Lol. It's a great time, highly recommend KM.
I just bought a .260 should help me out a little. I was going to try and shoot the pro/am in august but I don't think I'm gonna make it.
KJ
I shot my .308, Bartlein 22" in an A5 with the bushnell DMR for a scope. Ended up in 55th place out of 100. I had hopes for the top 25 but that was short lived. Lol. It's a great time, highly recommend KM.
I just bought a .260 should help me out a little. I was going to try and shoot the pro/am in august but I don't think I'm gonna make it.
KJ
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Yeah you'd be fine doing that, buy a set of 270 WSM bushing dies and then buy yourself a good 7WSM seater die and you'll be good to go on both.
I am in load development on a 7-300WSM right now myself and am very pleased so far with the results. Mine is a browning Abolt that was a 270 WSM with a torched barrel on it so I just had it re-barreled. If I were starting from scratch though, I'd definitely go with a long action hands down, but if you've got the SA, you don't give up all that much. Mine was built for hunting as well and while I'm currently shooting 162 BTHP Hornady's out of it, the hunting loads will most likely be the 168 Accubond LR's. I originally was thinking the 180's as well, but when you put the numbers to paper on 162's vs 180's the speed you get from the 162/168 class bulllets pretty much makes it a wash.
As for brass, I'm running 270 WSM brass, mainly because I have a bunch of it from the rifle's previous barrel, however if I were starting from your position, go with the 300 brass, it will also give you an automatic head stamp variation from your father's brass to keep them with the rifle they've been fired in.
I've seen doughnuts on brand new unfired 270 WSM brass that was just expanded. This was with some Norma brass I bought on sale, it's great brass, but essentially I had to expand it and hit it with a reamer right off the bat, and will have to watch it very closely from firing to firing.
Berger seems to be pretty true to their published BCs. The 180SMKs have a published .660 G1 BC, but I find that pretty generous on the long shots. In my rifle they're closer to a .30 G7 BC back-calculated from known velocity and atmospheric data shooting at known distances in excess of a mile. I called Sierra about the discrepancy, but the told me that every gun will net a different BC for the same projectile. Personally, I think they fibbed on their BC to be competitive. They do run 75%+ the price of the Bergers and their projectiles are pretty uniform and feed from my mags with room to spare. Can't complain too much as they group so well. They make me learn to read the wind better.
Thanks for all the help guys! I really appreciate it! Unfortunately, for logistics/financial reasons I may have to shelf this project for a while. Although I do have a 7mm Rem Mag that I will probably tweak/upgrade. I'm thinking of getting an adjustable cheekpice and 20 moa base/higher rings for it to try to alleviate the bolt throw issues im having when cycling it while staying on the gun. Whenever I run the bolt hard/fast, I always smack my nose on the rearward bolt stroke. Any ideas on how to combat this? This was one of my underlying reasons as to wanting to do the SA build actually. Thanks again Guys. Now i definitely know who to turn to for advice on WSM builds!
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Bolt throw issues and solutions could very well be its own thread, so if I cannot find anything in the search I will start a thread just for that. Thanks again guys, your advice/replies are greatly appreciated!
