Range Report 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

BobinNC

BobinNC

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    • Jan 31, 2009
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    Goldsboro, NC
    #1
    I been pondering a re-barreling my .308. It is used for tactical comps mostly, with a bit of hunting thrown in. After considering the 6.5's for a while, I decided that better barrel life (compared to the 260 rem/6.5 Creedmoor), might trump slightly better downrange ballistics, and I started to looking hard at the 7mm08. I reload, so what the factory may offer is of no consequence.

    In any event my current 308 load consists of the Berger 155.5 Full Bore, 46.5 grains of Varget, Lapua case, and Fed 210M primer, 2802 FPS, in a 20" factory barreled Rem 700.

    My tested Numbers @ 1k yds:

    Drop 9.6 Mils (346.3") windage @ 10MPH 2.6 Mils (93.5")

    Not at all bad.

    Since I'm considering a 7mm-08 I ran some JBM calc's using some pretty modest numbers velocity wise. Here are the 1k yd figures.

    Hornady A-max 162 grain @ 2650 FPS

    Drop 9.2 Mils (332.9") Windage 2.0 Mils (70.9")

    Berger 168 grain VLD @ 2650 FPS

    Drop 9.1 Mils (327.7) Windage 1.9 Mils (68.2")

    Berger 180 grain LRBT (not VLD) @ 2550 FPS

    Drop 10.0 Mils (359.9") Windage 2.0 Mils (73.3")

    I was not surprised by the 162 and 168 grain loads from a 7mm08. But I was a bit surprised by the 180 gr load numbers. Yes it is slow, yes it is heavy, but the windage numbers are still a full 20" LESS than my current 308 load. And not much worse than the best 7mm Berger 168's humming along 100 FPS faster. Drop here really means nothing, as a few more clicks on a turret, one way or the other is chicken feed. But performance in the wind is a good goal.

    Conventional wisdom states that a 7mm08 has insufficient case capacity to make use of the heavy 180 grain Berger. Perhaps the conventional wisdom is a bit wrong?

    Anybody have some real world experience launching 180 Bergers out a little 7mm08?

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
    #2
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    The 180 is going to be to far in the case IMO.

    I am running 168s in a 23 inch barrel. The bullets is to deep in reality. But it shoots good. I'm running H4350 and getting a honest 2700.

    I have some rl 17 I will try soon to bump the velocity up a little.

    Slot of guys have great success with the 162s. I just really like the bergers!!

    Either way, your going to smoke a 308!!
     
    #3
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I ran a 708 for a while and in my opinion the 175smk is where it's at. I ran a 22" barrel and could run 2700fps without pressure. According to Litz the G1 is 0.639 and the G7 is 0.327, I tried 180's but ballistically the 175's in my gun outperformed them. The thing shot really well with minimal recoil. I had pushed them as fast as 2760 with R17 but if you shot a long string (20 or so)the bolt lift would get heavy toward the end. I backed it down to around 2700 and ran with it.

    You'll like it and it'll smoke any 308 load.
     
    #4
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    The 162 Amax and the 168 Berger should be in the mid to high 27's with RL17. I've seen a number of references here and on a couple other forums going 2750, 2770 with the 162/168 class bullets pushed by RL17.

    Have you considered the 260? At 1k it will nudge out the 7-08, bullets are cheaper, H4350 is pretty much custom built for that case, and the barrel life is still exceptional.

    THe 140 6.5's are right on par with the 162/168gr 7's for BC adn you get 100+fps faster from them.
     
    #5
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    Bohem,

    Yes, I considered the better 6.5mm's and their ballistics are marginally better, but the 7mm's are not slouches. And 6.5 bullets are a few bucks cheaper. But 7mm-08 brass is cheaper/better, and Lapua 308's neck down to 7mm very nicely.

    And what ever barrel life you get with a 260 Rem, it will be better for the 7mm-08. And an extra 1000 to 1500 rounds in barrel life is signifigent.

    And that extra 100-150 FPS you get out 260 vs a 7mm is not real useful. Better elevation yes, but windage is similar. And the wind will kill your shot faster than elevation.

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
    #6
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    Just figured I would ask. I did run the numbers on a 260 back in January before buying a 260 upper or a 7-08 upper and with 130 and 140 VLD's I was within 0.1 mil for wind between the pair, however I found the drop to be close to 1 mil different. The reduction in drop and making the danger zones longer for reticle ranged shots pushed me to the 260 instead.

    No argument about the barrel life for sure, 1000-1500 rounds is a big difference when you're comparing it as 3000 vs. 4500, it's a no brainer.
     
    #7
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    Either way you will be happy

    friend of mine is shooting a 28 inch 260 and it is a hammer!! Very accurate and great ballistics.

    Most guys get 2850 with a 26 inch barrel and 140s in a 260

    Most are getting 2700 with 168s in 7/08
    2775 with 162s Both in 24 inch barrels

    260 is for sure flatter
    7/08 has a very small edge in windage
    7/08 has better barrel life
    Both are very accurate

    I do feel the 260 with 140s is set up in the case better than a 7/08 in a short action with DBM

    Even though not a huge deal. Energy was one deciding factor for me

    my rifle is actually a 7/08 Ackley. I'm still taking my time fireforming. The gun I built will be used for hunting quite a bit. Though both rounds will kill any deer in the world the 168 has more energy than a 140.

    That and the fact that good numbers are easy to get. Wind reading is the hardest part of making a great first round perfectly placed hit!! I need all the help I can get!! So to me that small advantage in windage of the 7/08 is a huge help
     
    #8
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    My RL17/ 168 Berger VLD combo runs a smidge over 2700FPS out of my 22" 7mm08. That rifle and chambering is quickly becomming a favorite.

    IMO, the 7mm08 hasnt the gas in the ass to drive bullets above 168grn to be an advantage. Stick to the 162/168s and dont look back.
     
    #11
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .257</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe Jared Joplin loves the 284 Win. He believes they should be built on a long action with the match style bullets.

    I'll take his word for it!!!! </div></div>

    I have heard of people getting good results with the 284 on a SA platform..FWIW
     
    #12
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I just switched to a Seekins DBM for my 7-08 and getting the 162Amax's loaded to 2.940 made a difference in my pressure. Using 40.3 IMR4895 I'm at honest 9.0 mils E at 1K and my interpolated 10mph FV wind is 2 mil. I adjusted the BC to .580 in my ballistic calc based on 1K results and was pretty much dead on in between at the last practical match I shot.

    One often overlooked point is the energy that the 7-08 carries with it down range, vs the 260. Something to think of if that's something youneed to think of....
     
    #13
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chpprguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .257</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe Jared Joplin loves the 284 Win. He believes they should be built on a long action with the match style bullets.

    I'll take his word for it!!!! </div></div>

    I have heard of people getting good results with the 284 on a SA platform..FWIW </div></div>

    It seemed to work pretty well here.

    http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html
     
    #14
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    All this banter about the 284 Winchester would indeed be useful if I was considering it.

    Nor am I considering the 7mm08 AI, 7mm BR, 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM, 7mm/300 WSM, nor any other cartridges or combination of cartridges, that might be rebarrled on to a Remington 700 SA set into a an AICS 2.0 Stock.

    This discussion is related only to the use of 7mm bullets of 162 grains or greater in a 7mm-08, and what it can do as far as performance goes in that particular case.

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
    #15
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Conventional wisdom states that a 7mm08 has insufficient case capacity to make use of the heavy 180 grain Berger. Perhaps the conventional wisdom is a bit wrong?
    </div></div>

    The same wisdom said that shooting 208's from the 308 would be foolish too but it's becoming more popular as people see the wisdom in the wind.

    Really, for the 160-180gr bullets in a 7mm-08 you're going to get a great improvement over the 308. A 6.5 or 7 bullet in the 308 case is a drastic improvement with almost any bullet combo on just about any 308 combo, I highly doubt you'll be disappointed even if you have a short barrel and "only" get the 162 Amax going 2700fps.
     
    #16
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    Bohem,

    Excellent points. In fact it was Shane's (Montana Marine) and others work with the 208 Gr A-Max out of a 308, that led me down the path of exploring 180's in a 7mm-08.

    I'm just waiting on a 7mm 1-9 twist barrel. The I'm off to the explore the 7mm08 follies.

    I have h4831, RL19, IMR4350 and H4350, but still need to acquire some RL17, and Hybrid 100V. Those are the powders that show the most promise.

    Are there any others powders that anyone can recommend I acquire?

    Bob
     
    #17
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem,

    Yes, I considered the better 6.5mm's and their ballistics are marginally better, but the 7mm's are not slouches. And 6.5 bullets are a few bucks cheaper. But 7mm-08 brass is cheaper/better, and Lapua 308's neck down to 7mm very nicely.

    And what ever barrel life you get with a 260 Rem, it will be better for the 7mm-08. And an extra 1000 to 1500 rounds in barrel life is signifigent.

    And that extra 100-150 FPS you get out 260 vs a 7mm is not real useful. Better elevation yes, but windage is similar. And the wind will kill your shot faster than elevation.

    Thanks,

    Bob </div></div>
    I considered a 7mm-08 and 260 Rem. The 7-08 is a great round, and is best with the 162 Amax and 168 VLD. I'm running the 140 VLD in my 260 now at 2877 fps. If you run the numbers (2700 fps with a 168 VLD and 2850 fps with a 140 VLD), the 260 is 37" flatter and provides 6" of less wind drift over the 7-08 to 1K. The energy between the 2 rounds is very close, never more than 200 ft/lbs (and this is at the muzzle). And the further you go out, the energies get closer matched to each other.

    I do believe the extra 100-150 fps is more useful in the 260 over the 7-08. When you weigh all costs (recoil, trajectory, wind drift, cost of the round, ease of components, and barrel life), the 260 is a top pick. But the 7-08 is still an great round, and a great choice.
     
    #18
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem,

    Excellent points. In fact it was Shane's (Montana Marine) and others work with the 208 Gr A-Max out of a 308, that led me down the path of exploring 180's in a 7mm-08.

    I'm just waiting on a 7mm 1-9 twist barrel. The I'm off to the explore the 7mm08 follies.

    I have h4831, RL19, IMR4350 and H4350, but still need to acquire some RL17, and Hybrid 100V. Those are the powders that show the most promise.

    Are there any others powders that anyone can recommend I acquire?

    Bob

    </div></div>

    N560 is a powder I would check out as well, if you can find it.
     
    #20
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    If your going to add VV-N-560, I find that it's equivilent in the big brother WSM chambering is IMR-7828ssc. I get equal performance with a little less density. YMMV in the '08 case
     
    #21
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bohem,

    Excellent points. In fact it was Shane's (Montana Marine) and others work with the 208 Gr A-Max out of a 308, that led me down the path of exploring 180's in a 7mm-08.

    I'm just waiting on a 7mm 1-9 twist barrel. The I'm off to the explore the 7mm08 follies.

    I have h4831, RL19, IMR4350 and H4350, but still need to acquire some RL17, and Hybrid 100V. Those are the powders that show the most promise.

    Are there any others powders that anyone can recommend I acquire?

    Bob

    </div></div>

    In my 22" barreled 708 I ran out of case capacity with both H4831 and R19 before I could reach a decent velocity.
     
    #22
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seven mm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    In my 22" barreled 708 I ran out of case capacity with both H4831 and R19 before I could reach a decent velocity. </div></div>

    Seven MM,

    If you could be more specific, with what bullet, did you run out capacity with H4831 & RL19 in the 7mm08? And what are you defining as "not decent velocity".

    I would be very happy with 2650 to 2700 with a 162-168 bullet weight, and 2550 to 2600 with a 175-180 gr weight.

    Thanks for your time,

    Bob
     
    #23
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    The only bullets I did testing with were 168jlk's, 175 smk's and 180bergers. You will easily obtain 2650-2700 with 162-168, you can get 2620+or- with 175smks and varget with great accuracy, however if I were you I'd go to H4350 and R17 before you buy any other powders.

    FWIW my rifle would run 2650-2675 with R19 but it was heavily compressed. It made more sence to run R17 get = or more velocity and use less powder doing it.

    Also I could run the 175 smk's nearly 100fps faster than 180 bergers, the diference in bc between them gives the ballistic advantage to the 175's with the extra speed. It's also a bonus they are significantly cheaper.
     
    #24
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I will try to contribute a little..

    I just finished rebarreling my DPMS LR308 to 7-08 and shot it for the first time today...

    21" pacnor 9 twist...

    I only tried to work up a load at 100 yards, so that's all the info I have,

    but I got an honest 2700 fps with the 162 AMAX's and 41 grains of Varget.
    Consider that I have to seat them very deep in order to get them to feed in the DPMS mags.

    (41.5 grains netted ~ 2775 fps, but I got deep smearing and a blown primer, so too hot for me..)

    I have some factory WIN 7-08 brass,
    I also resized WIN 308 brass down to 7-08 and noticed that empty case weights were very close, if not identical.
    They also resized very well, as long as I was prudent with case lube.

    It grouped right at 1 MOA, but I think that it was the driver, as I am not comfortable with the AR platform...

    I would bet that one could get better velocities with H4350 or Hybrid 100V....
     
    #25
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    FWI the reason I said that the 284 belongs in a LA is because the reason it failed up front was because it was put in a short action. With heavy bullets seated down in the case it will never reach it's potential. You might as well shoot the 7-08. If you move the heavier bullets out in the case the cartridge will transform into something entirely different. 24"-26" for practical purpose is good. 26" is really needed to squeeze a little speed out. Mine is 26" and runs over 2900 with 162's and 168's. I can push 150g TTSX's easily over 3k. I'm shooting them just over because that's what they want.
     
    #29
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    Short Update:

    I got 4 bags of Win 7mm-08 brass, one box of each of: 175 Gr SMK's, and 180 Gr, Berger LRBT's.

    As expected, the Berger's are marked on the box, as needing a 1-9" or Faster Twist", but unexpectedly the 175 Gr 7mm SMK's are marked as needing "at least 8.5" Twist barrel".

    I've got a barrel blank, a Brux 1-8" twist MTU contour barrel, but waiting on Mark @ SAC to get his reamers in before I ship it off.

    Also obtained: Redding Competition Seating Die (slightly used), and a new RCBS FL X Die, Redding NK die, and Lee Factory Crimp Die.

    No Hornady 162 Grain A-Max's seem not to be available anywhere on the planet, as of this date, but I did get enough from Sobrbiker (Thanks Steve) to build some dummy rounds.

    Bob
     
    #30
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I am using IMR4064 in my rifle and it is 18" with 162gr Amax's.

    IMO and from what I have seen...they 7mm-08 is about maxed out with the 16*gr class...the 180gr and 175gr seem to be better suited to the magnum cartridges....about 280Rem and up.

    My load is:
    41.* of IMR4064..work up to this # it is over max
    CCI Mag primers
    RP brass
    162gr Amax
    2600fps
    18"
    7mm-08 SAMMI
     
    #33
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I too am very interested in a 7-08 rifle. I will be building one using a Stevens 200 action and the factory centerfeed magazine since it will accomodate rounds just over 3". I will probably run at least a 24" tube to get more out of the heavies with slow powders.

    tater
     
    #34
    Re: 7mm-08 and Heavy Target Bullets

    I have a second AR-10 upper I use mainly for hunting that I built in 7-08, 20", 1:9 twist. I have fired 175 smk and 162's for match bullets granted I used powder I had on hand but I really liked the 162. I may try getting some of the newer powder and working up load for the 175's again and while I am at it trying some 210 or 208 for my 308. All in all I really like the 7-08 for hunting and I wil also be building a RSAUM 7mm on a model 70 LA in the near future. Right now it is chambered in 7mm rem mag but the RSAUM should give a longer barrel life. I really like the 7-08 becasue I can go buy a box of ammo anywhere if I need them. That is the only reason I try to stay away from some of the wildacts that have better performance.
     
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