7mm Bergers or AMAXs

[steelcomp]

I'm getting ready to order the chamber reamers for my 7mmRM and my 7-08 from Dave Kiff and I want to be able to discuss with some knowledge which bullets I'm going to be using and how I'll be loading them. My choices are between the Bergers and the AMAX's (VLD's) and was wondering what some opinions might be for either, and why. Both barrels are 1:9 (the 7mmRM is a gain twist Bartlein, 9.5-9) I have plenty of room in both mags to load long enough to avoid the "dereaded donut" so I'd appreciate some inpout on that as well.
TIA

 

[USMCj]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

For the 7/08 A-max all the way. For the RM, is your choice, but A-max's shoot so good that its hard to justify the expense of loading Bergers.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

The 162 Amax is an ideal bullet for the 7mm-08. The case capacity is there to drive it hard and it still has a very good BC. It's also not particularly seating depth sensitive.

It is not a VLD, even though it is a secant ogive.

The 168 Berger would be very good as well. The tested (Litz) BC's of those bullets are almost identical, the 168 is a very small amount better than the 162. (both at 2800fps MV on a std. day)

You're looking at 0.5 MOA difference less drop, and about 0.2 MOA less drift. I shoot the 162's because I get them for about 60% of the cost of Bergers.

For the 7mmRM I'd shoot the 180 Bergers for LR work, and have the reamer made to them personally. You can still shoot the 162's in it if/when you want to since they're not overly picky about seating depth.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 162 Amax is an ideal bullet for the 7mm-08. The case capacity is there to drive it hard and it still has a very good BC. It's also not particularly seating depth sensitive.

It is not a VLD, even though it is a secant ogive.

The 168 Berger would be very good as well. The tested (Litz) BC's of those bullets are almost identical, the 168 is a very small amount better than the 162. (both at 2800fps MV on a std. day)

You're looking at 0.5 MOA difference less drop, and about 0.2 MOA less drift. I shoot the 162's because I get them for about 60% of the cost of Bergers.

For the 7mmRM I'd shoot the 180 Bergers for LR work, and have the reamer made to them personally. You can still shoot the 162's in it if/when you want to since they're not overly picky about seating depth. </div></div> Well, I talked to Dave Kiff today who knew exactly what I needed for what I ws doing. Turns out he said exactly what you did on the 7mmRM...set it up for the Bergers, and I can shoot the Amax's as well. On the 7-08 he's making a "Tactical Match" reamer similar to what GAP runs on their 7-08's.
Thanks for the input.

 

[TCA4570]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

Greatest BC gain for the buck looks like 7mm-08.
Same powder, and dope.
One size down.
Greater BC.
.260 may be faster, but is it better?
Just thinking out loud.

TC

 

[steelcomp]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCA4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greatest BC gain for the buck looks like 7mm-08.
Same powder, and dope.
One size down.
Greater BC.
.260 may be faster, but is it better?
Just thinking out loud.

TC </div></div>So many opinions on these subjects, but I really liked all the numbers on the 7-08, and I found an older, never used A&B/Shilen barrel in 7-08 for $99.00.

 

[bohem]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCA4570</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greatest BC gain for the buck looks like 7mm-08.
Same powder, and dope.
One size down.
Greater BC.
.260 may be faster, but is it better?
Just thinking out loud.

TC </div></div>

I ran the numbers on it with a friend of mine who was considering a 260 or a 7mm-08 upper for his AR10.

We had exactly the same questions as you, so I resorted to several common bullets that Bryan Litz provided real world BC's for in JBM.

The 260 has the powder capacity to win in this case out to 1200y. Beyond that the 7mm-08 starts to slowly gain ground.

The 260 bullets I looked at were 123 Scenar, 140 Amax, 140 Berger.

The 7-08 bullets I looked at were 162 Amax, 168 Berger, 180 Berger.

The 260 won in every comparison, they're close, but the 260 had the edge.

If you go to a larger capacity case like a 284 Win or a 280 Rem then the 260 gets left sucking wind.

Steelcomp- You can't ingnore a deal like that for a good barrel

 

[steelcomp]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steelcomp- You can't ingnore a deal like that for a good barrel</div></div>Yes...that was surely a lucky find. Of course, the proof will be in the shooting, but for the price, I'll learn a lot even if it's a dog. The 7-08 probably wouldn't be my <span style="font-style: italic">first</span> choice for s SA rifle if I was building from scratch, but finding the barrel, and the fact that I'm also building a 7mmRM and can use the same reloading equipment helps. The 7-08 may not be the ideal round, but it's a decent performer, especially with the available bullets.
So where do the SMK's fall in this discussion? I know (or actually I've read and been told...I <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> nothing about all this

) that they're not jump sensitive like the Bergers are...kinda like the Amax's.
Ive heard the Bergers are expensive.
I've also heard the Bergers are hard on the rifling, and I may have to "chase" the lands as they wear, and that bullets like the Amax's and the SMK's aren't as hard on them.
I'd like some input on this as well, if anyone would.

Great fun, learning all this. Thanks to all for all the input.

 

[7mmRM]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

Two great choices in chamberings.

The 7mm08 is a fantastic chambering. You will love it. Im runnin 168 Bergers a tick over 2700 FPS ala 22" tube. Tried 162 AMAXs, but they didnt hang with the Bergers.

The 7mmRM is also an excellent chambering. 168 Bergers @ 3100 FPS leave nothing to be desired. I ran the 180s for some time with good results too, but dropped them in favor of the 168s.

The 162 AMAX is a great bullet, but Ive ALWAYS had better results with the Bergers.

Who ever told you Bergers are harder on rifling is full of it.

In my experience Bergers like no jump and want to be in the lands. AMAXs have been a mixed boat for me. Some like a good kiss, some like a jump. SMKs are the most tolerant of any.

Yes, Bergers are generally more expensive.

The 175 SMK rates a look. 168 SMK is an accurate bullet, but the BC sucks, and If your gonna run the 7s just as well take advantage of them.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: 7mm Bergers or AMAXs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Two great choices in chamberings.

The 7mm08 is a fantastic chambering. You will love it. Im runnin 168 Bergers a tick over 2700 FPS ala 22" tube. Tried 162 AMAXs, but they didnt hang with the Bergers.

The 7mmRM is also an excellent chambering. 168 Bergers @ 3100 FPS leave nothing to be desired. I ran the 180s for some time with good results too, but dropped them in favor of the 168s.

The 162 AMAX is a great bullet, but Ive ALWAYS had better results with the Bergers.

Who ever told you Bergers are harder on rifling is full of it.

In my experience Bergers like no jump and want to be in the lands. AMAXs have been a mixed boat for me. Some like a good kiss, some like a jump. SMKs are the most tolerant of any.

Yes, Bergers are generally more expensive.

The 175 SMK rates a look. 168 SMK is an accurate bullet, but the BC sucks, and If your gonna run the 7s just as well take advantage of them. </div></div>Thanks 7mmRM. I read the thread you did on your 7-08 project. Lot of good info there for sure. I will refer to it when I start working up some loads.

I think the point my friend was trying to make on the Bergers was not that they are harder on the barrel than any other (although he did mention that jamming bullets tends to increase pressure) but, and I'll quote,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it makes the length of the loaded round much more critical. A 0.002” difference in OAL can be a problem when the bullet is jammed. By contrast, a 0.005” difference is no problem when the bullet is off the lands. And lastly, when jamming you must also “chase the lands” for the entire life of the barrel. (As) the barrel wears, the lands will move. You must keep moving the bullet forward to find that sweet spot in the lands.</div></div>
Being harder on rifling was probably my poor interpretation of what he said.
Thanks again for the great info.