Has anyone built one of these or know a good source? Ive been thinking about doing some tinkering and this seemed like a fun project
Gunsmithing "80%" lower receivers
Re: "80%" lower receivers
IMHO its not worth the effort, tooling, and time to do just one, I assume your asking about AR15 receivers, and a Weapon you make can never be sold, so if something happens and you need some money your SOL.
IMHO its not worth the effort, tooling, and time to do just one, I assume your asking about AR15 receivers, and a Weapon you make can never be sold, so if something happens and you need some money your SOL.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
You can sell it actually. You need to stamp a serial number in to it and sell it like any other firearm, however, don't make a habit of it. If you sell 1 of them in your lifetime it's not an issue, if you are selling 1 a month you're acting as a manufacturer without a license. If you decide to sell it make sure there's several years and a provable financial hardship that's forcing you to sell this as a last ditch grasp to keep your family in housing and food.
If you want a lower that you can keep without a paper-trail then this is a good route.
I have an 80% frame for a 1911 that I'm planning to build myself. I'm not doing it for a "no paper-trail" issue, I just have spare machine shop time and not enough money to go buy one. I'd like to get the experience too.
You can sell it actually. You need to stamp a serial number in to it and sell it like any other firearm, however, don't make a habit of it. If you sell 1 of them in your lifetime it's not an issue, if you are selling 1 a month you're acting as a manufacturer without a license. If you decide to sell it make sure there's several years and a provable financial hardship that's forcing you to sell this as a last ditch grasp to keep your family in housing and food.
If you want a lower that you can keep without a paper-trail then this is a good route.
I have an 80% frame for a 1911 that I'm planning to build myself. I'm not doing it for a "no paper-trail" issue, I just have spare machine shop time and not enough money to go buy one. I'd like to get the experience too.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
The 80% ones I have seen are pretty pricey.
Take a look on www.homegunsmith.com
There is at least one user over there selling 80% lowers.
There are quite a few users there who have built lowers.... be it 80%, raw forging, or from scratch.
If you can deal with just a raw forging, DSA has them for about $25.00 or so if you buy 3 at a time.
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
The 80% ones I have seen are pretty pricey.
Take a look on www.homegunsmith.com
There is at least one user over there selling 80% lowers.
There are quite a few users there who have built lowers.... be it 80%, raw forging, or from scratch.
If you can deal with just a raw forging, DSA has them for about $25.00 or so if you buy 3 at a time.
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
Re: "80%" lower receivers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can sell it actually. You need to stamp a serial number in to it and sell it like any other firearm, however, don't make a habit of it.</div></div>
If you're not an 07 FFL then you don't need to stamp any markings on a firearm you build even if you do sell it, though ATF suggests that you do so. There are plenty of firearms still in circulation from before 1968 that don't have a serial number.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can sell it actually. You need to stamp a serial number in to it and sell it like any other firearm, however, don't make a habit of it.</div></div>
If you're not an 07 FFL then you don't need to stamp any markings on a firearm you build even if you do sell it, though ATF suggests that you do so. There are plenty of firearms still in circulation from before 1968 that don't have a serial number.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
I thought you had to stamp it, my mistake. At least it wasn't the "you can roll out production serial number free" kind of mistake
I thought you had to stamp it, my mistake. At least it wasn't the "you can roll out production serial number free" kind of mistake
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Just because a pre-1968 firearm isn't required to have a serial number doesn't mean that post 1968 firearms that come into the marketplace don't need one. I realize that you don't need to put a serial number on an "80%" homebuilt receiver if you never sell it, but be very very carefull if you try to sell your homebuilt someday. The BATFE has rendered several contradictory opinions over the years on the legality of selling your homebuilt firearm and it is dangerous to assume that just because somebody once read a ruling that seems to okay the sale of a homebuilt in the past that it's safe to sell yours today or in the future.
Check out the ARFCOM site for a link to what appears to be the BATFE's latest position on the sale of homebuilts. It doesn't look so good, and I for one would never risk ruining my life and losing everything I had including my family in a vain effort to "test the waters". The economic hardship theory is almost impossible to prove and is subject to interpretation by both the BATFE and the courts. Meanwhile, who's gonna pay your legal fees while you're hung up to dry waiting for a ruling?
Odds are that if you sold your homebuilt to a private individual you'd never get caught or prosecuted, but all it takes is for the buyer to get caught with it (especially while committing a criminal act) to start the ball rolling. He'd probably roll over on you like a freight train to save his own ass, and away you go. Better safe than sorry. If you're building 80% receivers - keep 'em. Selling one just ain't worth the risk!
Just because a pre-1968 firearm isn't required to have a serial number doesn't mean that post 1968 firearms that come into the marketplace don't need one. I realize that you don't need to put a serial number on an "80%" homebuilt receiver if you never sell it, but be very very carefull if you try to sell your homebuilt someday. The BATFE has rendered several contradictory opinions over the years on the legality of selling your homebuilt firearm and it is dangerous to assume that just because somebody once read a ruling that seems to okay the sale of a homebuilt in the past that it's safe to sell yours today or in the future.
Check out the ARFCOM site for a link to what appears to be the BATFE's latest position on the sale of homebuilts. It doesn't look so good, and I for one would never risk ruining my life and losing everything I had including my family in a vain effort to "test the waters". The economic hardship theory is almost impossible to prove and is subject to interpretation by both the BATFE and the courts. Meanwhile, who's gonna pay your legal fees while you're hung up to dry waiting for a ruling?
Odds are that if you sold your homebuilt to a private individual you'd never get caught or prosecuted, but all it takes is for the buyer to get caught with it (especially while committing a criminal act) to start the ball rolling. He'd probably roll over on you like a freight train to save his own ass, and away you go. Better safe than sorry. If you're building 80% receivers - keep 'em. Selling one just ain't worth the risk!
Re: "80%" lower receivers
All good info, thanks guys.
I would be doing this purely for the self satisfaction. Im not concerned with a paper trail or being able to sell it in the future. I really just want to be able to say "I built that". I was thinking of doing the same with a 1911.
For me its just an opportunity to learn even more about what goes in to my rifle.
All good info, thanks guys.
I would be doing this purely for the self satisfaction. Im not concerned with a paper trail or being able to sell it in the future. I really just want to be able to say "I built that". I was thinking of doing the same with a 1911.
For me its just an opportunity to learn even more about what goes in to my rifle.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Oh and If anyone could explain the pros and cons of billets vs. forgings i would be most appreciative!
Oh and If anyone could explain the pros and cons of billets vs. forgings i would be most appreciative!
Re: "80%" lower receivers
I have built several 80% receivers. If you can get regular ones, no its not worth it. I built mine because of where I live. I made a couple closed bottom 10 rders and then after things loosened up a bit here in Cali I built a fixed 10rd mag version. Perhaps the coolest thing to do with these is put custom engraving on them. All the ones I did were forged. You definitly need a mill for this project. Actually the best thing about doing one is pride and acomplishment of producing one.
I have built several 80% receivers. If you can get regular ones, no its not worth it. I built mine because of where I live. I made a couple closed bottom 10 rders and then after things loosened up a bit here in Cali I built a fixed 10rd mag version. Perhaps the coolest thing to do with these is put custom engraving on them. All the ones I did were forged. You definitly need a mill for this project. Actually the best thing about doing one is pride and acomplishment of producing one.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Thats exactly my mindset pinzmann.
Thats exactly my mindset pinzmann.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and If anyone could explain the pros and cons of billets vs. forgings i would be most appreciative! </div></div>
A billet AL receiver is cut from extruded bar. The crystal structure of the parent material is in the direction of extrusion. Think of how the grain runs along a piece of wood like a 2x4
When you forge something the crystal structure aligns itself and wraps around the curvature in the near finished shape part.
Imagine cutting a receiver from a piece of wood that has a neat grain structure that's aligned along the board like a 2x4 again. You can easily imagine how quickly it would crack. Now, if you had that piece of wood grow in that pattern and the grain wraps around all the corners you can see how much stronger it would be.
Metal acts in a similar manner. The milled Receiver AK's look nicer but the stamped receivers are actually stronger. Same with an AR, the billet piece is easier to manufacture, you just need a parent block of material large enough and patience with a milling machine to hog out the material.
With a forging you get a stronger part.
Not to say that a billet part isn't strong, and some of them can be quite strong, but unless you near net shape machine, reheat treat and forge it, the forged casting is stronger.
Some things you run into with extruded and cast AL parts is that there's very high levels of internal stress in the parent material. Imagine cutting the final shape to tolerance of the outside of the receiver. Now you cut the inletting for the trigger group and mag well. Toss mic's across is and realize that without the internal material there your outside dimensions just collapsed by 10 thousandths.
I've seen it happen time and again cutting race car parts, I learned the hard way twice. I said something to a friend who's a mould maker, he explained what happened. No issues since. Blow the inside out to rough shape and leave about 25 thou on it, then cut the outside to tolerance, then go back and cut the mag well and trigger housing area to tolerance. You won't F up a casting then.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh and If anyone could explain the pros and cons of billets vs. forgings i would be most appreciative! </div></div>
A billet AL receiver is cut from extruded bar. The crystal structure of the parent material is in the direction of extrusion. Think of how the grain runs along a piece of wood like a 2x4
When you forge something the crystal structure aligns itself and wraps around the curvature in the near finished shape part.
Imagine cutting a receiver from a piece of wood that has a neat grain structure that's aligned along the board like a 2x4 again. You can easily imagine how quickly it would crack. Now, if you had that piece of wood grow in that pattern and the grain wraps around all the corners you can see how much stronger it would be.
Metal acts in a similar manner. The milled Receiver AK's look nicer but the stamped receivers are actually stronger. Same with an AR, the billet piece is easier to manufacture, you just need a parent block of material large enough and patience with a milling machine to hog out the material.
With a forging you get a stronger part.
Not to say that a billet part isn't strong, and some of them can be quite strong, but unless you near net shape machine, reheat treat and forge it, the forged casting is stronger.
Some things you run into with extruded and cast AL parts is that there's very high levels of internal stress in the parent material. Imagine cutting the final shape to tolerance of the outside of the receiver. Now you cut the inletting for the trigger group and mag well. Toss mic's across is and realize that without the internal material there your outside dimensions just collapsed by 10 thousandths.
I've seen it happen time and again cutting race car parts, I learned the hard way twice. I said something to a friend who's a mould maker, he explained what happened. No issues since. Blow the inside out to rough shape and leave about 25 thou on it, then cut the outside to tolerance, then go back and cut the mag well and trigger housing area to tolerance. You won't F up a casting then.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
I heard one of the bigger problems was getting the buffer tube done correctly. I have actully thought about buying one and doing it sans the tap for the buffer tube and making it into a dedicated 22lr pistol. The 22lr doesnt require a buffer tube as the bolt works inside the length of the upper, and without the provisions for a buffer tube that means no stock either, and there is no way at that point the ATF could say I have an illegal SBR.
I heard one of the bigger problems was getting the buffer tube done correctly. I have actully thought about buying one and doing it sans the tap for the buffer tube and making it into a dedicated 22lr pistol. The 22lr doesnt require a buffer tube as the bolt works inside the length of the upper, and without the provisions for a buffer tube that means no stock either, and there is no way at that point the ATF could say I have an illegal SBR.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Thats very interesting. Im curious though why some of the forged recievers i have seen are much cheaper than the billets? Some forged recievers i have seen are even around 45$ or less.
Like here...
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
maybe they are just crap
Thats very interesting. Im curious though why some of the forged recievers i have seen are much cheaper than the billets? Some forged recievers i have seen are even around 45$ or less.
Like here...
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
maybe they are just crap
Re: "80%" lower receivers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats very interesting. Im curious though why some of the forged recievers i have seen are much cheaper than the billets? Some forged recievers i have seen are even around 45$ or less.
Like here...
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
maybe they are just crap </div></div>
That link is to a raw forging ("0%") - not a completed lower receiver.
In volume, a near-net shape forging can be cheaper because there is less machining performed and less chips generated.
Cheers,
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thats very interesting. Im curious though why some of the forged recievers i have seen are much cheaper than the billets? Some forged recievers i have seen are even around 45$ or less.
Like here...
http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-Lower-Receive...oductinfo/1001/
maybe they are just crap
That link is to a raw forging ("0%") - not a completed lower receiver.
In volume, a near-net shape forging can be cheaper because there is less machining performed and less chips generated.
Cheers,
Bill
Re: "80%" lower receivers
The DSA's look like a very nice forging to my uneducated eyes.
The DSA's look like a very nice forging to my uneducated eyes.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Spikes Tactical has also started carrying 0% forgings, I've seen the product, and it is not crap.
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=226
Spikes Tactical has also started carrying 0% forgings, I've seen the product, and it is not crap.
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=226
Re: "80%" lower receivers
so the difference between an 80 and a Zero is that there needs to be MUCH more milling work done im assuming?
the 80's i was looking at have the fire control area and mag well cut and the buffer tube area tapped. the zeros are just a solid block?
this could get interesting...!
so the difference between an 80 and a Zero is that there needs to be MUCH more milling work done im assuming?
the 80's i was looking at have the fire control area and mag well cut and the buffer tube area tapped. the zeros are just a solid block?
this could get interesting...!
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Yup, pretty much from what I have seen.
There are no machined surfaces and alot of material to be removed from a raw forging.
DogboneS;
Those are damn cheap! Good link!
It would not surprise me if they came from the same foundry as the DSA's.
Yup, pretty much from what I have seen.
There are no machined surfaces and alot of material to be removed from a raw forging.
DogboneS;
Those are damn cheap! Good link!
It would not surprise me if they came from the same foundry as the DSA's.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
CNC Gunsmithing also has jogs that look very nice. Tutorials as well that say their blanks can be completed with just the jigs and a drill press.
CNC Gunsmithing also has jogs that look very nice. Tutorials as well that say their blanks can be completed with just the jigs and a drill press.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
I would go 80% first time out,
then go to zero if you want to do another,
JMHO
I would go 80% first time out,
then go to zero if you want to do another,
JMHO
Re: "80%" lower receivers
BTW, I have the tap for the buffer, I am willing to loan it as long as you mail it back...(and don't break it, lol
)
BTW, I have the tap for the buffer, I am willing to loan it as long as you mail it back...(and don't break it, lol
Re: "80%" lower receivers
sweeeeeet, i might have to take you up on that
sweeeeeet, i might have to take you up on that
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Here is a pic tutorial, to get a visual idea of whats involved
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=4197
Ray-Vin.com had a PDF manual available, with great step by step instructions.
Here is a pic tutorial, to get a visual idea of whats involved
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=4197
Ray-Vin.com had a PDF manual available, with great step by step instructions.
Re: "80%" lower receivers
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so the difference between an 80 and a Zero is that there needs to be MUCH more milling work done im assuming?
the 80's i was looking at have the fire control area and mag well cut and the buffer tube area tapped. the zeros are just a solid block?
this could get interesting...! </div></div>
Exactly - a raw hunk of heat-treated 7076 aluminum with the flashing removed, but no machining performed.
This is a pretty good video (if you can find one), especially fun in fast forward, because you see him take a 0% and do complete machining/finish on it:
0% discontinued
I have a DSA forging - it's the real deal. Lower receiver drawing can be found on-line....
Cheers,
Bill
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so the difference between an 80 and a Zero is that there needs to be MUCH more milling work done im assuming?
the 80's i was looking at have the fire control area and mag well cut and the buffer tube area tapped. the zeros are just a solid block?
this could get interesting...!
Exactly - a raw hunk of heat-treated 7076 aluminum with the flashing removed, but no machining performed.
This is a pretty good video (if you can find one), especially fun in fast forward, because you see him take a 0% and do complete machining/finish on it:
0% discontinued
I have a DSA forging - it's the real deal. Lower receiver drawing can be found on-line....
Cheers,
Bill
Re: "80%" lower receivers
Maybe I missed something, but metal grain structure and strength are hugely different between CASTINGS and FORGINGS.
And it seems to me, that those pictures look like castings.
As was described earlier, during the forging process, the grain of the metal is aligned, and re-directed around contours and boss's. Whereas with a casting, the cavity of the mold is filled with liquid metal (molten) and the metal fills the voids like water in an ice-cube tray. (READ: no grain structure) Which is why when they break, it is 'random crystalline structure'.
Now, castings can be sorta 'forged' by taking the hot castings and pressing them between two dies. That 'sorta' aligns the outer grain structure, a bit, but not all that much.
So, as I said to open this post, did I miss something?
Maybe I missed something, but metal grain structure and strength are hugely different between CASTINGS and FORGINGS.
And it seems to me, that those pictures look like castings.
As was described earlier, during the forging process, the grain of the metal is aligned, and re-directed around contours and boss's. Whereas with a casting, the cavity of the mold is filled with liquid metal (molten) and the metal fills the voids like water in an ice-cube tray. (READ: no grain structure) Which is why when they break, it is 'random crystalline structure'.
Now, castings can be sorta 'forged' by taking the hot castings and pressing them between two dies. That 'sorta' aligns the outer grain structure, a bit, but not all that much.
So, as I said to open this post, did I miss something?
Re: "80%" lower receivers
To the OP, if you don't have access to a mill, stick with a 80%. I personally think they are overpriced, especially if you buy the drill jigs to finish them, for the novelty of "I finished the last 2 steps".
If you do have machine access, the 0% are easier to complete then most of the accurizing of rifles discussed on this site.
They are aluminum - easy to machine (steel would be a completely different story)
They are inexpensive - $20-30 (unlike the $1500-$2500 scopes discussed on the site)
If you have the time for the project, you will not be disappointed with the fact "I did it myself"
As for the forged or cast question, they are listed for sale as forged. At Spikes they are also listed as Mil-spec, so they must meet some standard of quality. They are only AR lowers, and being so, they are not designed to hammer nails with. They only line up the mag and fire control pieces, as well as suspend the buffer tube. I purchased my 0% from Spikes, and material quality is fine.
To the OP, if you don't have access to a mill, stick with a 80%. I personally think they are overpriced, especially if you buy the drill jigs to finish them, for the novelty of "I finished the last 2 steps".
If you do have machine access, the 0% are easier to complete then most of the accurizing of rifles discussed on this site.
They are aluminum - easy to machine (steel would be a completely different story)
They are inexpensive - $20-30 (unlike the $1500-$2500 scopes discussed on the site)
If you have the time for the project, you will not be disappointed with the fact "I did it myself"
As for the forged or cast question, they are listed for sale as forged. At Spikes they are also listed as Mil-spec, so they must meet some standard of quality. They are only AR lowers, and being so, they are not designed to hammer nails with. They only line up the mag and fire control pieces, as well as suspend the buffer tube. I purchased my 0% from Spikes, and material quality is fine.
Similar threads
Sidearms & Scatterguns Anyone tried the Genesis 12-gauge shotgun upper on a Xanthos lower receiver yet?
