A few random questions

[patriot07]

My 100% factory Tikka CTR 6.5 CM shoots about .5-.6 MOA with factory 140 ELD-M. I have not been able to make reloads that shoot quite as well (some days they shoot 1 MOA and some days they shoot .6-.7". I'm using once-fired Hornady brass, H-4350, CCI 200 primers, and 140 ELD-M loaded to the same length as the factory ammo, which is about .030" off the lands for my rifle. Single stage on my rock chucker weighing every charge. Brass sized with a Hornady bushing die (.289) and shoulder bumped .002". I didn't trim before loading, but they were all within spec (although not necessarily close to the same length).

So I have a few questions:

- I currently do not have a concentricity gauge or turn necks. Is this worth considering?

- What should my "target" accuracy be? Should I definitely be able to get better accuracy from my reloads, or should I be happy with a factory rifle getting to .5 MOA?

- My best accuracy has some with 41.5-42.0 grains of powder. If I am going to start changing variables, should I consider other primers, changing lengths (I have tried .015" jump and it didn't go well), or do a ladder test to optimize powder charge and then start tweaking other stuff?

Appreciate any help I can get. Thanks!

 

[diverdon]

Do you get the same result when you use new brass?
Do you get the same result when you use once fired brass?
Do you anneal?

 

[patriot07]

I do not anneal.

I have used new brass and gotten great results on one range trip (.2"-.3" groups at 41.5, 42.0, and 42.4 grains). Tried the exact same thing a month later and right back to .6"-.8". Haven't gotten those stellar results since.

The rest of the results I'm talking about are all once-fired brass.

 

[Jimgal62]

My 100% factory Tikka CTR 6.5 CM shoots about .5-.6 MOA with factory 140 ELD-M. I have not been able to make reloads that shoot quite as well (some days they shoot 1 MOA and some days they shoot .6-.7". I'm using once-fired Hornady brass, H-4350, CCI 200 primers, and 140 ELD-M loaded to the same length as the factory ammo, which is about .030" off the lands for my rifle. Single stage on my rock chucker weighing every charge. Brass sized with a Hornady bushing die (.289) and shoulder bumped .002". I didn't trim before loading, but they were all within spec (although not necessarily close to the same length).

So I have a few questions:

- I currently do not have a concentricity gauge or turn necks. Is this worth considering?

- What should my "target" accuracy be? Should I definitely be able to get better accuracy from my reloads, or should I be happy with a factory rifle getting to .5 MOA?

- My best accuracy has some with 41.5-42.0 grains of powder. If I am going to start changing variables, should I consider other primers, changing lengths (I have tried .015" jump and it didn't go well), or do a ladder test to optimize powder charge and then start tweaking other stuff?

Appreciate any help I can get. Thanks!

A concentricty gauge is a must to assess your resizing die and bullet seating die setup.

 

[Subwrx300]

A concentricty gauge is a must to assess your resizing die and bullet seating die setup.

100% agree with @Jimgal62 ... Just NOT the Hornady gauge, it does not show true run-out relative to case body/centerline.

The design relies upon the rim of case and bullet tip to center bullet and if rim is not perfectly round or has dings, it will throw the readings off...way off. I speak from first hand experience "fixing" run-out on Hornady gauge only to double check on different gauge and find run-out was worse. In my case, MUCH worse: "perfect" ammo on Hornady gauge actually had .006-007" total indicated run-out.

Any gauge that uses roller style system from body of case should provide good, reliable readings. Like Sinclair, K&M etc. Good for checking fired brass (concentricity of chamber), sized brass (concentricity of sizing die) and loaded ammo (concentricity of bullet to case centerline).

Regarding factory rifle barrel precision expectations, I'd say if you are shooting .5-.75, your doing very well. Anything under .5" average is definitely good enough and further refinement is not likely to improve your hits at long range any appreciable amount. By the time you try to reach that 1moa target at 600yards, your wind call is significantly more important than your rifle precision (assuming around 1/2 moa rifle and shooter). But this also depends on your shooting style.

If hunting rifle, 1MOA is fine out to 300-400 yards.
If PRS and steel matches/practice, 1/2moa is great system.
If FClass shooting, you need to find a way of getting to the .2-.3 moa range for F open and FTR, plus be very good at wind calls.

Good luck!

 

[patriot07]

Thanks for the response subwrx. Usage is just informal matches with buddies and shooting at the range myself. I tend to agree that I should be happy with something around .5" and call it a day. The problem for me has been finding loads that shoot consistently. When I was running a Tikka 223, if I shot 10 different range sessions, my best group each session might be .2" once, .3"-.4" twice, .5"-.75" four times, .8"-1" once or twice, and 1"-1.5" once or twice. I never was able to figure out what caused the same load to shoot really good some days and not so great on other days. My Tikka 6.5 CM seems to be quite a bit more consistent, but it seems like I'll still get some days where it shoots .2", some days where it shoots .5"-.6", and some days where it barely breaks and inch.

Thanks for the heads up on the Hornady gauge. I'll look for one of the ones you recommend.

Any suggestions on tweaking the loads? Primers, length, etc.?

What amount of runout is acceptable for sized brass and what amount for loaded rounds?

 

[Subwrx300]

Thanks for the response subwrx. Usage is just informal matches with buddies and shooting at the range myself. I tend to agree that I should be happy with something around .5" and call it a day. The problem for me has been finding loads that shoot consistently. When I was running a Tikka 223, if I shot 10 different range sessions, my best group each session might be .2" once, .3"-.4" twice, .5"-.75" four times, .8"-1" once or twice, and 1"-1.5" once or twice. I never was able to figure out what caused the same load to shoot really good some days and not so great on other days. My Tikka 6.5 CM seems to be quite a bit more consistent, but it seems like I'll still get some days where it shoots .2", some days where it shoots .5"-.6", and some days where it barely breaks and inch.

Thanks for the heads up on the Hornady gauge. I'll look for one of the ones you recommend.

Any suggestions on tweaking the loads? Primers, length, etc.?

What amount of runout is acceptable for sized brass and what amount for loaded rounds?

The variance your seeing in group size is not too bad, especially for factory rifle, but I understand the aggravating swing from sub half to sub one moa.

How many rounds peer group are you firing? Are they cold bore groups or at end of practice sessions? Is group growing vertically, horizontally, diagonally or circular? Is it consistent or changes group to group?

A lot of what you're describing can be affected by fundamentals during the shot changing slightly between shots: rear bag pressure, bipod pressure, cheek weld, natural point of aim, buttock position in shoulder pocket etc.

I would suggest ruling yourself out of the equation by having someone shoot it that can definitely shoot sub half 5-10 shot groups. That is a fast way of seeing if it's you or the rifle/ammo.

Primers can matter but not sure you'd see the effects you're describing. Have you shot over a Chronograph? Would help a bit know your SD and ES for the load you've developed.

 

[patriot07]

Lots of great info, thanks again. I typically shoot 4-shot groups, but I've been known to do 3 or 5 depending on the situation.

I have had pretty good luck with other rifles shooting consistently small groups (my modded 10/22 is a freaking tack-driver at 50 yards), but I'm nowhere near experienced enough to say that I'm not the issue. Most of my stringing ends up being horizontal for some reason. I don't have too much of an issue with this rifle stringing vertically. I did have occasional vertical stringing issues with my Tikka Varmint 223 though (sold that rifle now). I could tell those were definitely related to how I shouldered the rifle at the time, and I've gotten more consistent with my form since then.

I have not shot this rifle over a chrono. I'll take one out next time I'm at the range (hopefully later this week).

Only reason I asked about primers was to find out if it would make sense to try something like a CCI 250 or Fed 210M (local reloading store has them in stock). CCI 200 is the only one I've tried so far. And I know Tikka makes a good rifle, but I also know that I'm probably pushing the limits of a factory rifle as well. If it's reasonable to aim for consistent 1/2" 5-shot groups, then that will probably be my goal for the time being.

 

[Subwrx300]

Lots of great info, thanks again. I typically shoot 4-shot groups, but I've been known to do 3 or 5 depending on the situation.

I have had pretty good luck with other rifles shooting consistently small groups (my modded 10/22 is a freaking tack-driver at 50 yards), but I'm nowhere near experienced enough to say that I'm not the issue. Most of my stringing ends up being horizontal for some reason. I don't have too much of an issue with this rifle stringing vertically. I did have occasional vertical stringing issues with my Tikka Varmint 223 though (sold that rifle now). I could tell those were definitely related to how I shouldered the rifle at the time, and I've gotten more consistent with my form since then.

I have not shot this rifle over a chrono. I'll take one out next time I'm at the range (hopefully later this week).

Only reason I asked about primers was to find out if it would make sense to try something like a CCI 250 or Fed 210M (local reloading store has them in stock). CCI 200 is the only one I've tried so far. And I know Tikka makes a good rifle, but I also know that I'm probably pushing the limits of a factory rifle as well. If it's reasonable to aim for consistent 1/2" 5-shot groups, then that will probably be my goal for the time being.

If you can average .5MOA for five 5-shot groups, that is very good; I'd stop tweaking and start practicing wind and positional shooting.

Regarding horizontal stringing, while it could be an ammo issue, I'd lean more towards shooter/rifle.

If stringing is consistent (starts from left and walks right more and more or vice versa) it would seem to relate to barrel heat. The barrel is shifting POI as it heats up. Not much to fix this other than new barrel.

If it's more random (just left and right in general) could be bedding, action screws, or barrel contacting stock. Could also be shooter error and recoil management (stock shifting on shoulder pocket during recoil). This seems most plausible based on your experience different on different days.

Check them out one by one starting with easiest to check (rifle fit, stock/barrel inletting) then move to harder to test items (namely your setup and barrel issues).

But all said and done, I think you would be best off shooting some dot drills or doing Natural Point of Aim drills before going too far down the rabbit hole. Fundamentals aren't so fundamental until you have them down exactly right. And even then they are perishable skills.

 

[patriot07]

I'm not saying I can average .5 MOA for 5-shot groups. I'm saying that's my goal. My reloads currently would average closer to .7-.9 MOA on 5-shot groups. I have occasional really good days and can't figure out how to replicate them...

I'll work on some dot drills and other things. Then I guess I'll have a better idea of whether I should tweak my load or not.