A greater genius? Stoner vs Kalashnikov

[Acer76]

I have recreationally educated myself to some degree on the work of these iconic Fathers of Firearms. As many of us, I have a firm understanding of their respective designs, how they operate, and how they compare to each other (strengths/weaknesses in design and application)

Given we all have our reasons and preferences. Hence the discussion.

I am a huge fan of both and see specific applications for both AR and AK systems. I am very pleased with both platforms and have enjoyed greatly my AR10, AR15, AK47, AK74 rifles over the years. Most especially how they work; how they’re different.

I have often wondered about these men and how their designs came to be. Most interesting to me is how much support in design did these men have? Did Eugene Stoner develop and refine his system on his own, how much help was lended by support personnel? Did Mikhail Kalashnikov benefit from contributing efforts from a team of engineers, or did he alone conceive his platform? How much help these guys had is relative to the assessment:

Who is the greater genius?

(Short version)
My stance is that Stoner’s development of the AR-10 is more advanced in terms of potential accuracy and intelligence in design. Most especially with regard to modularity and the ability to switch configurations. Therefore the conception of his design is more sophisticated and advanced. But how much influence and assistance came from others?

There is much more I look forward to discussing in this thread.

What say you?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Yes.

 

[Maser]

The AK will always be better than the AR. And fuck off with the accuracy claim. The AK was built to work. The AR was built for welfare cases!

 

[Acer76]

The AK will always be better than the AR. And fuck off with the accuracy claim. The AK was built to work. The AR was built for welfare cases!

Thanks for your intelligent and civilized input, but try again. Pay attention if you’re going to participate. This discussion is not about AK vs AR. Hint: read the title of the thread.

 

[Maser]

Thanks for your intelligent and civilized input, but try again. Pay attention if you’re going to participate. This discussion is not about AK vs AR. Hint: read the title of the thread.

Apparently levity regarding the infamous AK vs AR discussions escapes you. Try again kid. This is the fucking Bear Pit. You think you're gonna get an actual discussion on this in this section of the forum?

 

[Acer76]

Apparently levity regarding the infamous AK vs AR discussions escapes you. Try again kid. This is the fucking Bear Pit. You think you're gonna get an actual discussion on this in this section of the forum?

Point taken. I guess I’ll suffer all that tired bullshit in this thread because that’s all some folks see.

Still, I’m willing to bet a few will read what I’m asking and respectfully participate and stimulate some thought.

Carry on, Captain! I’m not here to stand in your way. You’ll have your fun however you see fit.

 

[Veer_G]

Yes.

Only on Thursdays. The rest of the week, I consult my Magic 8 Ball®.

 

[BullGear]

Stoner of course. The AR15 rifle was a unique design, something never seen before. The AK47 rifle was hatched by taking parts from many other rifle designs and frankensteining them together. Albeit, the rifle was and still is greater than it's parts, it's still not necessarily unique.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Its a tie. Both great in their own way.

Stoner had more technical and education advantages.

Kalashnikov had battle experience and was able to go outside the box... In a Soviet state that punished independant thought with Gulag or bullet...

A genius with a lab designed a technically advanced set of guns that reflect the best in modern technology and are still going strong 60 years later. Just what a technically advanced volunteer army needed.

A genius with burn scars, from a hospital bed, invented a simple weapon that works.... And it is still going strong after 71 years. Because it is simple and effective and robust. Just what a peasant conscript army needed.

They are both geniuses. And IMHO trying to pick the best is akin to arguing about angels on pinheads. Full of great ideas but a waste of energy.

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[Veer_G]

Made you look!

 

[pmclaine]

Shouldnt you compare and contrast the designers of the StG44 Hugo Schmeisser and the Stoner team?

After all the Russians kind of freudian slipped that the AK is just a copy of the StG44.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28395/ak-47-statue-kalashnikov-german-rifle/

and MK stole Garands trigger.

 

[TxLabRat]

Shouldnt you compare and contrast the designers of the StG44 Hugo Schmeisser and the Stoner team?

After all the Russians kind of freudian slipped that the AK is just a copy of the StG44.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28395/ak-47-statue-kalashnikov-german-rifle/

This was my understanding. After Germany was broken up after the war the plant that manufactured the StG44 was on the Russian side and the plant that made the ammunition was not. That ultimately had a big influence on the AK. I have no references at hand to cite so if anyone can verify this, I would appreciate it.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Made you look!

16 minutes and I am still watching....

Feeling very relaxed, too!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Acer76]

This was my understanding. After Germany was broken up after the war the plant that manufactured the StG44 was on the Russian side and the plant that made the ammunition was not. That ultimately had a big influence on the AK. I have no references at hand to cite so if anyone can verify this, I would appreciate it.

Interesting to think that Kalashnikov may had the full breadth of Nazi engineering supporting his genius.

 

[Veer_G]

16 minutes and I am still watching....

Feeling very relaxed, too!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Much better than starting out your Fathers' Day with inane, run-on 9mm vs. .45ACP bullshit, no?

I'd swear that it's a summer Sunday. Oh, wait, it is.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Much better than starting out your Fathers' Day with inane, run-on 9mm vs. .45ACP bullshit, no?

I'd swear that it's a summer Sunday. Oh, wait, it is.

That's weak sauce . Anything you can do with either of those I can do with my .22lr pistol more accurately . Plus I have seventy thousand rounds . Harrumph !

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Interesting to think that Kalashnikov may had the full breadth of Nazi engineering supporting his genius.

He did not. He was wounded in 1941... He started designing shortly thereafter. He had been a gun designer before the war, but was a serving line soldier during the crisis of early Barbarossa.

He received some cartridges that were Soviet made in about 1943... and was one of a number of competing designers.

The designation AK 47 relates to the date of its appearance in the Soviet military. And its official appearance was at a MayDay parade 2 years after the war. During that time, the gun had been tested, manufactured and the marching troops in the parade... were all carrying it.

The STG-44 was certainly inspirational in its form and function. But comparing them was chalk and cheese. The STG was classic German over-building. But its concept was impressive, as was the medium-power cartridge that bridged between the Nagant and the tiny 9mm or 7.65 'burp guns.' There was no lab full of Werner von Braun types helping Kalashnikov... It is said though, that he did steal some ideas from some other Soviet designers, notably IIRC, someone named Siminov.

Put yourself in the context of the Soviet Union c. 1943 - 45. Does anyone think that a low-level gun designer... had resources or contacts with outside entities? Even in '46 or '47? The Iron Curtain was real. Anyone who had contact with the West... at a low level, in any case, risked being shot or sent to Siberia. The Russians executed their own returning Prisoners of War... because they had too much exposure to the west (and were considered wreckers for surrendering.)

No former Sergeant was given a lab full of ex Nazi gun designers...

There are a number of good books on the history. Some are pretty good. Others are simply propaganda. But the history is written down.

And I stand by my above statement... Neither Stoner or Kalashnikov win. It's a tie.

Well, back to that Nepalese bowl chanting.... It is relaxing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Veer_G]

That's weak sauce . Anything you can do with either of those I can do with my .22lr pistol more accurately . Plus I have seventy thousand rounds . Harrumph !

No assault wheelbarrow, no barkless chihuahua. Gecko45 you are not. We've been down this road before.

Invoking wayback mode ...

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/felon-with-a-bat-belt.50151/

 

[sirhrmechanic]

It's hard to relax to Tibetan Jug Band riffs when I am LMAO....

I forgot about that thread. Shankster in his prime.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Alphatreedog]

Made you look!

Tried listening but the impending doom low tone has me waiting for a door to be kicked in . Oh yeah I alao noticed the pic of the female with man hands . Creepy .

 

[Veer_G]

It's hard to relax to Tibetan Jug Band riffs when I am LMAO....

I forgot about that thread. Shankster in his prime.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Couldn't let the day pass by without another appropriate contribution to this thread.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Is she single ?

 

[Veer_G]

Is she single ?

I think she's married to a yak.

 

[Acer76]

I think she's married to a yak.

Willing to bet her junk looks like that avatar

 

[FS1]

Kalashnikov learned to make a reliable rifle out of stamped metal.

Stoner learned to make a accurate rifle out of molded plastic.

Both did well.

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting to think that Kalashnikov may had the full breadth of Nazi engineering supporting his genius.

Imagine if we had some German rocket scientists to help us with our space program........

 

[pmclaine]

He did not. He was wounded in 1941... He started designing shortly thereafter. He had been a gun designer before the war, but was a serving line soldier during the crisis of early Barbarossa.

He received some cartridges that were Soviet made in about 1943... and was one of a number of competing designers.

The designation AK 47 relates to the date of its appearance in the Soviet military. And its official appearance was at a MayDay parade 2 years after the war. During that time, the gun had been tested, manufactured and the marching troops in the parade... were all carrying it.

The STG-44 was certainly inspirational in its form and function. But comparing them was chalk and cheese. The STG was classic German over-building. But its concept was impressive, as was the medium-power cartridge that bridged between the Nagant and the tiny 9mm or 7.65 'burp guns.' There was no lab full of Werner von Braun types helping Kalashnikov... It is said though, that he did steal some ideas from some other Soviet designers, notably IIRC, someone named Siminov.

Put yourself in the context of the Soviet Union c. 1943 - 45. Does anyone think that a low-level gun designer... had resources or contacts with outside entities? Even in '46 or '47? The Iron Curtain was real. Anyone who had contact with the West... at a low level, in any case, risked being shot or sent to Siberia. The Russians executed their own returning Prisoners of War... because they had too much exposure to the west (and were considered wreckers for surrendering.)

No former Sergeant was given a lab full of ex Nazi gun designers...

There are a number of good books on the history. Some are pretty good. Others are simply propaganda. But the history is written down.

And I stand by my above statement... Neither Stoner or Kalashnikov win. It's a tie.

Well, back to that Nepalese bowl chanting.... It is relaxing!

Cheers,

Sirhr

Like how the Russians came up with the novel/cutting edge design of the Ural motorcycle?

Ill give Russian engineering credit where credit is due like taking an American design track system and creating the effective T34 but Russians are practicle people. They dont reinvent the wheel.

There math and physics may be cutting edge but they rely on other more creative people to find a practicle use for what they discover than they Russianize it from there.

Its not a negative. Its the trait of a survivor.

 

[EddieNFL]

John Moses Browning

 

[Veer_G]

Imagine if we had some German rocket scientists to help us with our space program........

I'm just grateful that we had a qualified military historian to battle reality drift before my second cup of coffee.

 

[Maggot]

Damn, Im late to this one. Ive shot both and will take the AR design. Anything I can shoot off my chin is ok with me. I do appreciate the ruggedness of the AK.

 

[Maggot]

16 minutes and I am still watching....

Feeling very relaxed, too!

Cheers,

Sirhr

If youre ever back in the area I have that on vinyl. It'll put you to sleep in seconds.

 

[Maggot]

Like how the Russians came up with the novel/cutting edge design of the Ural motorcycle?

Ill give Russian engineering credit where credit is due like taking an American design track system and creating the effective T34 but Russians are practicle people. They dont reinvent the wheel.

There math and physics may be cutting edge but they rely on other more creative people to find a practicle use for what they discover than they Russianize it from there.

Its not a negative. Its the trait of a survivor.

Its also the trait of the worlds's SECOND power.

I always liked the quote,



,"Europe has the metric system but the US went to the moon."

 

[pmclaine]

Kalashnikov learned to make a reliable rifle out of stamped metal.

Stoner learned to make a accurate rifle out of molded plastic.

Both did well.

You do realize that the initial design was stamped but due to failures they had to resort to making milled 1 pound receivers out of billets that were something like 7 pounds.

They figured it out but they had to likely steal someone elses metallurgy/welding process to do it.

 

[pmclaine]

John Moses Browning

Genius!

 

[Rthur]

It would seem they both represented the environs of their makers.
Stoner with freedom/technology.
Kalishnakov with hammer and anvil(or sickle).

R

 

[...]

(Short version)
My stance is that Stoner’s development of the AR-10 is more advanced in terms of potential accuracy and intelligence in design. Most especially with regard to modularity and the ability to switch configurations. Therefore the conception of his design is more sophisticated and advanced. But how much influence and assistance came from others?

There is much more I look forward to discussing in this thread.

What say you?

1) neither men are "geniuses".......both are great engineers.....but neither of them really did anything ground breaking in terms of mechanical design.

in both cases, they merely adopted elements of previously designed systems and placed them into one rifle.



2) you cant compare both mens ability based on the rifles they designed......mainly because there are other factors that come into play......like time, money, resources, design requirements, and more importantly....design philosophy.

the russians are very much of the philosophy of " the perfect is the enemy of the good"

meaning they build things to due EXACTLY what they are required to due...no more, no less......they needed a sturdy rifle that was man size accurate to 300M......thats EXACTLY what they built......its not that they couldnt build a more accurate or more advanced system.....its that they didnt need to, so they didnt.


now Americans, and to an even greater extent, the Germans, have a "design optimization" theory......we take a design, and fuck around with it until it is as refined as possible.

that is why you saw the AR incorporate polymers, aluminum, composites, ect...



3) how do you decide what is a "better" design.......is it by the one that is more 'refined'....more advanced systems....more advanced materials?...then the AR wins hands down.

or is the better design the one that does exactly what it needs to due, as simply and as cheaply as possible?......in that case, you really cant beat the AK

 

[Spblademaker]

Stoner of course. The AR15 rifle was a unique design, something never seen before. The AK47 rifle was hatched by taking parts from many other rifle designs and frankensteining them together. Albeit, the rifle was and still is greater than it's parts, it's still not necessarily unique.

No one ever wrote a book called: Some guys uniquly designed monster. ?

 

[Spblademaker]

Damn, Im late to this one. Ive shot both and will take the AR design. Anything I can shoot off my chin is ok with me. I do appreciate the ruggedness of the AK.

Wow. I’m sure someone will come along on that one. I’m feeling generous today.

 

[...]

Stoner of course. The AR15 rifle was a unique design, something never seen before. .

ummmm not really.

Rotating bolt - predates the AR15 by quite a good bit (see webley fosbery shotgun)


Gas impingement - predates the AR15
Detachable box magazine - predates the AR15


VERY rarely does anyone ever come up with a 100% new design.......its always adaptations of previously existing designs........why reinvent the wheel when you can just modify an existing wheel?

 

[Veer_G]

This thread is a monument to the concept that, in the Internet Age, expertly derived information is worthless when every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a subscription to the History Channel on their cable and a Best Buy computer to boot.

God, how I long for the old Hide.

 

[Maggot]

Damn, Im late to this one. Ive shot both and will take the AR design. Anything I can shoot off my chin is ok with me. I do appreciate the ruggedness of the AK.

Touche'. Perhaps I should have used 'fire'.

 

[Bender]

Just tag me when we get to Hello Kitty plate carriers for mall duty.....

 

[Veer_G]

@Bender We're moving in that direction.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Re. the Russians and their 'creativity....'

We used to tell a story down at NASA Johnson about how Soviets and Americans solved the problem of taking notes in space. NASA sent out a million dollar contract and a pen maker came up with the novel idea of using a pressurized ink-feed on a pen that would write in any orientation and gravity. The pens worked perfectly, went on all the space missions and actually achieved a level of commercial success, being marketed and sold in magazines like National Geographic and Smithsonian and Popular Science as the NASA Space pen... It was a well-engineered design.

The Soviets used pencils.

Cheers,

Sirhr


As an addendum, when I was shooting precision rifle on the PD... I had to use one of those silly pens. Because we were not allowed to fill out our databooks in pencil. The States' Attorney would not accept anything ever being written in pencil, because it could be erased (like that doesn't leave a mark.) So every entry in the databook had to be made in pen. In all weather, in all temperatures... When a pencil would have done just fine. We also had pens that would write in -40 degree weather. For writing citations in the dead of winter. For the record... if that pen came out... you weren't getting a warning.

 

[pmclaine]

Re. the Russians and their 'creativity....'

We used to tell a story down at NASA Johnson about how Soviets and Americans solved the problem of taking notes in space. NASA sent out a million dollar contract and a pen maker came up with the novel idea of using a pressurized ink-feed on a pen that would write in any orientation and gravity. The pens worked perfectly, went on all the space missions and actually achieved a level of commercial success, being marketed and sold in magazines like National Geographic and Smithsonian and Popular Science as the NASA Space pen... It was a well-engineered design.

The Soviets used pencils.

Cheers,

Sirhr


As an addendum, when I was shooting precision rifle on the PD... I had to use one of those silly pens. Because we were not allowed to fill out our databooks in pencil. The States' Attorney would not accept anything ever being written in pencil, because it could be erased (like that doesn't leave a mark.) So every entry in the databook had to be made in pen. In all weather, in all temperatures... When a pencil would have done just fine. We also had pens that would write in -40 degree weather. For writing citations in the dead of winter. For the record... if that pen came out... you weren't getting a warning.

Fisher Space Pen better than Mt Blanc....

 

[...]

Re. the Russians and their 'creativity....'

We used to tell a story down at NASA Johnson about how Soviets and Americans solved the problem of taking notes in space. NASA sent out a million dollar contract and a pen maker came up with the novel idea of using a pressurized ink-feed on a pen that would write in any orientation and gravity. The pens worked perfectly, went on all the space missions and actually achieved a level of commercial success, being marketed and sold in magazines like National Geographic and Smithsonian and Popular Science as the NASA Space pen... It was a well-engineered design.

The Soviets used pencils.

Cheers,

Sirhr
.

to NASA defense.....they never actually contracted to have the space pen made.....Fisher did that all on their own, and then offered it to NASA so they could use it for marketing......NASA never spent a dime to develop it.

and the reason they were reluctant to use pencils is because they were concerned with graphite dust, which is electrically conductive.....a valid concern.

but the philosophy of the story is spot on.

 

[Unknown]

Asking which of these gun designers is more of a genius is akin to asking whether Edison or Tesla is more the genius....Madam Curie (radiation/Xrays), or Salk (cure for polio)...I could go on, but you get the idea. I'm just glad there are/were people in the world like them all.

 

[Strykervet]

Kalashnikov learned to make a reliable rifle out of stamped metal.

Stoner learned to make a accurate rifle out of molded plastic.

Both did well.

That's it in a nutshell, but it's more USA's ways vs. USSR's ways --USA wasn't gonna build a cheap rifle and USSR couldn't build a rifle like the AR. USA has more indepth training regarding the rifle, ie, everyone get's the course. USSR built a rifle kids can use with almost no instruction. USA has logistics and mfg. power to build complex weapons, USSR is just now rounding that corner (but still too costly).

Stoner came from aerospace mfg. and saw the weapon built using purely those principles and materials.

Kalashnikov was a disabled combat vet, a tanker IIRC, who drew up a weapon he knew his country could make and that soldiers could use.

So both men designed a rifle that suited their country best IMO.