Re: ? about a Kimber 1911
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Can you name one reputable pistol smith who recommends them?
I can't think of a single one.
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Can you think of how a reputable pistol smith is supposed to make money by recommending a gun that comes with a 4LB trigger, and decent looking frontstrap checkering, and Novak or Bomar sight cuts, a fitted barrel, and forward and rear cocking serrations as standard features?
At least with Springfield they get a gun that can be checkered, and that needs accuracy and reliability work.
The Springfields also have an edge in the "classic style department". They will result in better looking guns to showcase in a portfolio.
Would Vickers want one of his guns to say "Kimber" on the side? Probably not. The Kimber has a trademark look- it's much harder to make a Kimber gun really look unique IMO.
There are fashion faux pas to consider. If these guys violate socially acceptable, they devalue their name and lower demand for their work.
When I bought my Springfield loaded, it came with a two piece barrel. It fit nice, but how is making the barrel from two pieces helping in the accuracy department? Can two parts be more solid than one? That's really not an upsell.
People get into the MIM or billet debate a lot. Many people use castings also which is yet another technology.
I was working on a couple 1911's once and realized that even billet parts are not created equal. Some of the makers tool steel sears are soft. Others (Nowlin) are very hard. Ed brown's "Hard core" slide stop was cast and warped so the part wouldn't sit flat to the frame (both parts in my order)< I assumed "hardcore" meant billet. Obviously not- casting lines were present.
I personally feel a quality MIM'd part is probably going to better some companies billet or cast parts. So I no longer feel generalizations are an accurate way to compare guns.
The fitment of course probably also determines the stress or lack thereof imparted to the parts. So there are a lot of factors involved making it difficult to just say "kimber sucks".
I personally like the plastic MSH. It's lighter material. Other people despise it. To each their own.
<span style="font-weight: bold">I'm not a Kimber fanboy either. I like Colt, I like Baer- but of course 4 months is the current wait on a Baer gun.
I bet Sig does a good job, and if it weren't for the SIG looking slides and external extractors I might even own one instead of a Kimber- they are affordable, and SIG has a reputation for quality.
I would love to own a springfield TRP Pro- but then that's a custom shop gun with a one piece barrel most likely- a totally hand fitted gun, guaranteed to work properly, shoot accurately and be dependable. </span>
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You're missing the boat on why smiths recommend particular guns. If you think LAV and John Harrison are "competing" with Kimber, you might want to rethink that. Their guns are selling at 3-5x times Kimber prices, WHEN they agree to even take work. It's like implying that a Ferrari mechanic who doesn't recommend Kia's, does so because "they run so well." Let's be real.
Sig has gone to shit in recent history too. Same guy who ruined Kimber is killing Sig (Ron Cohen). That's why they got kicked out of the ATF trials, the FAM's lot of .357 P229R's was rejected (and dumped on the commercial market), the P250's the FAM's got instead are sitting in storage because they won't run, etc.
Sig's reputation for quality died in 2005 when they brought Cohen in. Kimber's reputation for quality died when they moved to Yonkers and started their Series II BS.
Most of the West Coast Kimbers and the pre-2005 Sigs's are fantastic guns. Current production of both is to be avoided though to anyone who demands that they actually run.
Both of their business plans now revolve around full page glossy pictures in gun rags of the same gun with subtle feature and finish changes to an otherwise stale line up. Both rush guns out the door as cheaply as they can, tell customers to shoot a case of ammo through them to "break them in" (knowing most will put them in the safe and forget about them before they finish a single case) and repair them for the people who complain as it's cheaper than doing it right the first time, for everyone.
This is pretty widely known info for anyone who wants to look into it. Here's a start:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/non-xd-handguns/129549-when-did-sig-sauer-decline.html http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=850310#post850310 http://vuurwapenblog.com/2011/11/11/sig-continues-series-of-embarrassing-pistol-tender-failures/ Just google "Ron Cohen sig kimber"... it's all right there.
