Gunsmithing  Accuracy issues

Mauser06

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So I have a 6.5x47 Lapua. All quality parts. Quality smith.


I'm new to the precision game but have been handloading 100yd sub moa capable ammo for factory hunting rigs for a while.


I was getting a firing on my brass, getting some shots down the bore...all was well.

I was using 130gr ELDMs and H4350. It was hammering. I was running low-mid level charges. Cleaning every 25rds or so. Everything was well under MOA. Most under half moa. Best 5 shot group at 100yds was .087"


All the sudden it's generally well over MOA.

I checked everything. All right and tight. Clean bore verified with a scope. Let I get dirty and it didn't change.

Borrowed a known scope figuring it could be the glass (Viper HST...still trying to decide on glass for it)

Still no change. Same loads. Different loads doesn't matter.


Only thing that DID change was the powder.

I was scratching my head. A buddy asked if it was the same jug over powder.

I remembered then that I went from a 10-15 year old jar of H4350 to a fresh 8 pounder.


I've shot pretty much the spectrum of H4350 charges with the new stuff. It will not shoot and I don't think it's me.


Could the rifle really hate the new H4350 THAT much?

To go from .087" to 1.5-2" seems nuts?


I have some varget to try.



But figured I'd ask and see if anyone has any other suspect points to look at?

Scope, mounts, action bolts all been checked. Bore and brake cleaned and dirty.

I just can't believe old powder vs new is THAT much different?


At the same time, the bore broke in and likely sped up. I will admit, i don't have a chrono yet (can't decide on that either lol) but was around 100rds when I changed powders and it fell apart. Now at 185rds.


I wasn't too concerned about changing lots. My loan wasn't developed..I was just tinkering. I like to develop loads on fired brass.


Any ideas?

Hopefully this week I can test some Varget charges and see what it does.
 

bschneiderheinze

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    Have you chronograph it I had a lot of varget I had to drop .5 to get back into the accuracy node it was shooting 60 FPS faster. Powder was will gather humidity over time also which will slow it down. I would say you need to switch your load. The barrel was probably still speeding up at 100 rounds also I run 200 before I consider them broke in.
     
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    SonoranPrecision

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    Have you chronograph it I had a lot of varget I had to drop .5 to get back into the accuracy node it was shooting 60 FPS faster. Powder was will gather humidity over time also which will slow it down. I would say you need to switch your load. The barrel was probably still speeding up at 100 rounds also I run 200 before I consider them broke in.
    Read the original post. He addressed this.
     

    Mauser06

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    I checked all the torque..bases, rings, action bolts...different scope.


    Admittedly don't have chrono so I have no idea what's going on with the speed.


    I just cannot believe I can't find anything to shoot the new H4350.

    I'm guessing the formula or something has changed in 10-15 years. And it degraded, humidity etc etc.


    I thought for sure it was the scope...when that didn't pan out, panic mode set in. We know custom builds aren't chump change.

    I did check the crown and all that...it looks great. Doesn't snag patches or anything. I actually didn't have the break off till last week..and its been tight. So hard for much to get damaged there.


    I'm really thinking it's just the powder. Hopefully it goes back to hammering with Varget.


    Weird combination of powder change and barrel speeding up I think? Just hard to believe it absolutely won't shoot any charge I've tried since I noticed it went to crap.
     

    bschneiderheinze

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    Read the original post. He addressed this.
    Maybe you should learn how to read he needs to get an accurate reading on it somehow. He can shoot it 600 yards and match up the bc with the drop to close to an accurate speed without a chrono. Your going spend more on bullets, powder primers and brass than the cost of a cheap chrono
     

    Precision Underground

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  • Check for globs of copper in the barrel. It has happened to me twice. They started at .5moa and then opened up big time. I was “cleaning” as I was breaking them in but the borescope showed copper that needed special attention even after cleaning. Contrary to what some will say new barrels do need break in sometimes. And to head off the “that doesn’t happen with quality barrels” crowd, one of them was a cut rifled rock creek.
     

    SonoranPrecision

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    Maybe you should learn how to read he needs to get an accurate reading on it somehow. He can shoot it 600 yards and match up the bc with the drop to close to an accurate speed without a chrono. Your going spend more on bullets, powder primers and brass than the cost of a cheap chrono
    As written, the point of your post was that he may need to adjust the charge weight to get back to an accuracy node. He already adjusted powder charge up and down with no luck. He’s concerned with group size at the moment, not being in a velocity node (and yes I’m fully aware that they can coincide). He doesn’t need to know velocity to know his groups west to shit.
     

    bschneiderheinze

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    As written, the point of your post was that he may need to adjust the charge weight to get back to an accuracy node. He already adjusted powder charge up and down with no luck. He’s concerned with group size at the moment, not being in a velocity node (and yes I’m fully aware that they can coincide). He doesn’t need to know velocity to know his groups west to shit.
    Can’t fix stupid ☝️
     

    hafejd30

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    This will sound totally stupid but,

    You didn’t by chance use IMR 4350 instead of H4350 on one or the other?
     

    Mauser06

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    This will sound totally stupid but,

    You didn’t by chance use IMR 4350 instead of H4350 on one or the other?
    Nope. The original pounder was opened...10-15yr ago. Fresh 8 pounder and now crap.


    I'm no problem with the bore scope. I am still working on the first...6-8" I'm seeing what looks like copper and carbon in layers. May be a cleaning problem. We'll see. I noticed it changed each time I looked so I may have layers deposited that I need to keep going after?

    Hard to believe I lost that much accuracy within 150rds from fouling... But maybe.
     

    Mauser06

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    After 25rds or so I was letting the barrel cool and using wipe out foam. Getting home, patching it out then alternating carbon cleaner and copper cleaner till both showed clean.


    I got my bore scope last week and was pretty surprised at the lack of cleaning I was actually doing with that process.


    I'm admittedly new to this stuff. I've probably never put 185rds through any of my hunting rifles. Had a 22-250 I shoot several hundred through. But thats been it.

    I've been reading and sounds like I may need to go after that first 6-8" harder....but man. That seems excessive to go from crazy good to worse than my hunting rigs.
     
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    Badshot308

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    After 25rds or so I was letting the barrel cool and using wipe out foam. Getting home, patching it out then alternating carbon cleaner and copper cleaner till both showed clean.


    I got my bore scope last week and was pretty surprised at the lack of cleaning I was actually doing with that process.


    I'm admittedly new to this stuff. I've probably never put 185rds through any of my hunting rifles. Had a 22-250 I shoot several hundred through. But thats been it.

    I've been reading and sounds like I may need to go after that first 6-8" harder....but man. That seems excessive to go from crazy good to worse than my hunting rigs.
    Do you have any factory ammo to try?
     

    Mauser06

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    Do you have any factory ammo to try?
    I dont...might be worth trying to find some though.

    Figured I will try Varget...then seek further help. I do personally know some pretty good PRS shooters and benchrest guys. I hate bothering them with every question and like to learn myself. Figured this post will yield various things to check. It has...but most of them I've checked.


    So far I still think it's powder or fouling.


    For a round that is so known for easy tuning...I'm sweating. It went from being true...shooting nearly everything really well. To...mostly not even grouping. I thought it was the barrel breaking in so I tried everything in a 4 grain span in. 2 or .3gr increments. Fiddled with seating depth a little. None of it is nearly acceptable.
     

    Precision Underground

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  • I dont...might be worth trying to find some though.

    Figured I will try Varget...then seek further help. I do personally know some pretty good PRS shooters and benchrest guys. I hate bothering them with every question and like to learn myself. Figured this post will yield various things to check. It has...but most of them I've checked.


    So far I still think it's powder or fouling.


    For a round that is so known for easy tuning...I'm sweating. It went from being true...shooting nearly everything really well. To...mostly not even grouping. I thought it was the barrel breaking in so I tried everything in a 4 grain span in. 2 or .3gr increments. Fiddled with seating depth a little. None of it is nearly acceptable.

    Sounds exactly like the copper fouling I dealt with. Borescope it until there’s no trace of copper anywhere. The blue patch thing has never worked for me. Boretech is the best thing I’ve found because it cuts the copper pretty well and you don’t have to worry about it hurting your barrel. Wet patch, scrub, soak, wet patch...repeat.
     

    iceng

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    Powder, 100% . I've had this, and witnessed multiple others with adi2209 powder 1.5 years ago.

    Have a look at this:

    Also do some home work on who makes IMR and Hodgson powders.

    Powder is hydroscopic, it will absorb moisture. (Can a. Chemist please confirm this ? 2nd hand knowledge).

    Change powders. Simple. I, and a few other had to do it.
     

    FisherT&C

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    Try loading up a jump test and finding your jump node. Then go back and run a powder charge ladder. For a better explanation watch Scott Satterlee's videos he did with Long Range with the Lilly's on You Tube. I think your barrel sped up, I've experienced this with my own rifles and reworking the jump fixed it.
     
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    Sgtsideways

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    I recently noticed the same problems that you are having. Two things that I have noticed is that the pic rail attachment (Badger rings) has a fitting that seems to loosen up and you only notice it if you look closely at the gap difference between the pic. attachment points on the two rings.
    The other thing I noticed is that I thought I had a clean bore. Turns out that the copper is really building up in the grooves. I've sent away for a borescope and boretech cu+2, and eliminator. Hoppes copper solvent is not doing the trick at all. Now I have to wait to try and track down the problem. My es numbers are way off too. You really need a chronograph btw.
     

    Mauser06

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    I don't believe anything with the scope/mounting is the culprit. I checked MY scope in reverse as I removed it. It was right b tight. So was the rail. Mounted my buddies knownand proven high end scope and did a comparison. Same results with both scopes and mounting systems.



    I think its a combination of barrel sped up, powder change and fouling. Now with right about 200rds through, and back to clean, hopefully it's "cured"


    Hopefully back to testing tomorrow. I think she's actually clean now via bore scope....



    I'm going to try the H4350 and Varget. I did try some 130gr Bergers the other day along with 2 scopes and 130gr ELDMs.


    I know I need a chrono. I'm just torn on what I want. I want to be able to use it for everything...not just my rifle.. Labradar on paper does what I want. But seems so many people have issues and end up buying tons of accessories.



    Will update after some testing.
     

    Sgtsideways

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    I had issues with the Lab also. The JKL trigger solved all of the problems. My brake angles the blast back, so I had to move the Lab in front of the muzzle about 1 ft and 3-5" to the side. Also, it is important to aim it at the target and get that right. I use a primer tube to aim with. Lab verses MS also leads to a lot of heated debate here on the Hide.
     

    Mauser06

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    So you can see where I can't decide....lol.

    Id go MS...but it won't do my bow. And I believe I'd need accessories to do my pistols and such. Also, don't care for potential POI shifts with/without it.


    Probably need to research what I need to get the labradar to work for me and get me one.
     

    Sgtsideways

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    So you can see where I can't decide....lol.

    Id go MS...but it won't do my bow. And I believe I'd need accessories to do my pistols and such. Also, don't care for potential POI shifts with/without it.


    Probably need to research what I need to get the labradar to work for me and get me one.
    One thing I would get for the Lab, other than the trigger, would be a good usb rechargeable battery pack.
     

    Mauser06

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    Shot again today.


    Looking better. But not what it was.


    Kinda thinking it may be the monkey behind the trigger and me not being used to the rifle and shooting style. Using a mechanical rest and bags trying to eliminate the monkey behind the trigger. But I gotta learn to use it I think. 2 or 3 or 4 shots will slam into 1 hole and then 1 or 2 are an inch or so out. Sometimes it'll print a couple individual holes 2 or 3 here and 2 or 3 there.

    Last group was 4 in 1 hole and I called the last one and dropped it 1/4"..that was after I moved the rest back and rebuilt a different position...it seemed to help.

    Could still be a host of things. I think I just had a really good day when I first started shooting it. Lol.
     

    Mauser06

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    I'm suspecting you mean my h4350?


    It was a new sealed 8 pounder.


    As a bitnof an experiment, I did that. Left it sit in my 120 for a week...I run 2 dehumidifiers at 50% humidity. Didn't change anything.


    Going to keep at it. I've tried different bullets. Going to try Varget. And Going to work on ME. I really am thinking I might be the issue. This stuff is brand new to me aside from shooting hunting rifles and such. And I dont shootbas regularly as I'd like. I went 4 months or so without shooting this rifle.
     

    larryh128

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    Shot again today.


    Looking better. But not what it was.


    Kinda thinking it may be the monkey behind the trigger and me not being used to the rifle and shooting style. Using a mechanical rest and bags trying to eliminate the monkey behind the trigger. But I gotta learn to use it I think. 2 or 3 or 4 shots will slam into 1 hole and then 1 or 2 are an inch or so out. Sometimes it'll print a couple individual holes 2 or 3 here and 2 or 3 there.

    Last group was 4 in 1 hole and I called the last one and dropped it 1/4"..that was after I moved the rest back and rebuilt a different position...it seemed to help.

    Could still be a host of things. I think I just had a really good day when I first started shooting it. Lol.
    Stupid question to you but did you set your parralex(sp) for 100 yds? Being not adjusted properly will do exactly what you are describing.
     

    Mauser06

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    Stupid question to you but did you set your parralex(sp) for 100 yds? Being not adjusted properly will do exactly what you are describing.


    I've tested my scope for 3 groups next to a borrowed high end known tested optic for the same 3 loadings. Same result rules out the scope.


    I've never shot a stock with a vertical grip...I really think it's me and a consistency issue. I'm going to focus on ME...and going to have my buddy send a couple groups and see what he does.


    Like I said, this is a new rifle and new shooting style for me. I looked back at all my targets and it looks like I had 1 decent day...shotba couple really good groups...that I haven't replicated l even with the same loads...hard to "accidentally " shoot a .087" 5 shot group. But hard for a new shooter to do it consistently lol.



    Not trying to act like I know anything. I posted this to learn and appreciate everyone's responses. I need to learn to diagnose issues as they arise in the future as well as now. I've covered everything listed except changing powders.. which I will do next.

    Rifle is right n tight. Scope was pulled and a good one used. A spectrum of charges and some varied seating depths tested. Different bullets tried.

    I think the rifle shoots. I think the guy pulling the trigger has to do his part consistently.
     
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    larryh128

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    I've tested my scope for 3 groups next to a borrowed high end known tested optic for the same 3 loadings. Same result rules out the scope.


    I've never shot a stock with a vertical grip...I really think it's me and a consistency issue. I'm going to focus on ME...and going to have my buddy send a couple groups and see what he does.


    Like I said, this is a new rifle and new shooting style for me. I looked back at all my targets and it looks like I had 1 decent day...shotba couple really good groups...that I haven't replicated l even with the same loads...hard to "accidentally " shoot a .087" 5 shot group. But hard for a new shooter to do it consistently lol.



    Not trying to act like I know anything. I posted this to learn and appreciate everyone's responses. I need to learn to diagnose issues as they arise in the future as well as now. I've covered everything listed except changing powders.. which I will do next.

    Rifle is right n tight. Scope was pulled and a good one used. A spectrum of charges and some varied seating depths tested. Different bullets tried.

    I think the rifle shoots. I think the guy pulling the trigger has to do his part consistently.
    Going back to my initial question, did you adjust the parrellex on either scope? Being a relatively new shooter this might be foreign to you. Some call it side focus but with the rifle stationary, no influence from you, when it's adjusted properly for the range the xhairs will stay stationary as you move your head up/down/side to side. If they move, you're not adjusted properly and you will never shoot tiny groups.
     

    Mauser06

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    Other than setting them to 100yds and making sure the focus looked good....you might be onto something if there is more to it.
     

    b6graham

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    Other than setting them to 100yds and making sure the focus looked good....you might be onto something if there is more to it.
    The numbers don't mean much on 99% of scopes

    But more than likely parallax isn't an issue
     

    larryh128

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    Other than setting them to 100yds and making sure the focus looked good....you might be onto something if there is more to it.
    The numbers on the scope SOMETIMES line up, not usually. But if the parralex isn't set like I told you, your face has to be exactly in the same position.
     

    Mauser06

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    The numbers on the scope SOMETIMES line up, not usually. But if the parralex isn't set like I told you, your face has to be exactly in the same position.
    Thanx! I will do some further research and try to learn how to set it properly.

    I know my form and consistency needs some work. It really showed when I moved my rest closer to me and shot in more of an upright position opposed to leaning forward. That last group I fired the other day was around half MOA with 1 I dropped and knew I did when I broke the trigger. 4 were in 1 hole. I think my form and foundation made that improvement.


    Going to try to start shooting more regularly and see if I can't iron all this out. I hunt a lot...so oct-jan I am either working or in the woods. I have too many hobbies lol. I know to truly be good at precision shooting and long range shooting, you have to be consistent and regular trigger time probably helps.
     

    Mauser06

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    So....a little update.


    Tested positive for the rona right before my turkey-cation was due to end. Didn't know you can get the rona from pollen but whatever. 10 more days off work. Lol.

    Finally got to feeling better. Decided to tear into the rifle because something ain't right. I blamed myself but I shoot my deer rifles better than this thing was shooting.

    Didn't know what I was looking for but I was looking for something lol.


    As I loosened the front action bolt I noticed the barrel move. A LOT. Like 1/8" or more. Huh. That ain't right.


    Looked at the bedding. Everything looked good. Lug recess looked good. Dropped it back in. Definitely teetering on something...big time. Pulled it out and looked.

    1 tinyyyyyy shiny spot on the top of the mag well. Hmmmm.


    I slowly put it in and watched..front of the trigger hanger was contacting the top of the mag well.


    Fired up the dremel. Ground a little recess for the trigger hanger. Fits like a glove and doesn't move at all.

    Didn't have much time but threw together some ammo.


    Produced a 5 shot group that'd probably measure in the .3s. Another group was probably in the .4s


    I THINK I may have fixed it.


    Still some user error and definitely need to replace the glass. But I feel better now...going to try to keep shooting regularly and see if it keeps shooting. Hopefully that was it. Feel like a dummy overlooking that....


    And I will admit...I'm the idiot that bedded it. It was my....3rd bedding job. I actually put the pillars in and bedded the bottom metal and action..first time doing all of it. Lessons learned.


    Anxious to get back to the range and make sure it keeps repeating and then I can finally fine tune a load.
     
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    Mauser06

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    I've learned many lessons by being a DIYer...but, in the end, that's what is important. I learn from it and get better.

    I am admittedly cheap. I spend money where it needs spent. But I could not see paying a smith to bed it. And I'm just not keen on bedding blocks and mini chassis...although they work well for many many shooters and I know that. Yep...it'd saved me 300 rounds and lots of head scratching.

    But I've learned. And bought a bore scope which may be the best $50 I've spent in a while....and taught me that cleaning this rifle isn't like cleaning my other rifles that never see high round counts and tenths of an inch accuracy are something I care about.


    So, at the end of the experience came several good lessons....and that's another reason I like doing things the hard way. Money can't buy those learning experiences. True. I could have simply spent more and likely never ran into the issue. But I've noticed that guys that try to buy their way into something end up spending a LOT more. Example...take the rifle back to the Smith. He says everything is fine. Still shoots MOA at best. Take it to another Smith. He charges you since he's diagnosing and correcting someone else's screw up. Or, many guys would say it's fouling and wrecked the bore chasing a shadow on a bore scope and there goes a Bartlein and a chamber and threading job.



    Funny I overlooked it though. I have a Kimber Montana and that is literally a known issue which I corrected in mine...and I'm building another rifle now and using a different bottom metal which required a good bit of fitting and stock reshaping which makes my factory bottom metal too tall now. So I KNEW the issue was common when building a rifle...just overlooked it...