Accuracy, me or the rifle?

[Zmechanic]

Because I am crazy, I'm over here stressing about the accuracy of my latest rifle. I'm by no means an experienced target shooter or long range shooter, but I have done some of both.

Remington .223 cerakote w/5r barrel (w/ BC Medalist M40 stock)
Warne 1 piece steel base bedded
TPS SL rings
Vortex Viper PST 2.5-10x32

Base to gun 25 in/lb (and blue loctite)
Rings to base 50in/lb
Rings to scope 18 in/lb

It is basically BRAND new with now 40 rnds through it. I sighted it in with cheaper American Eagle 55gr tipped-varmint. After about 15rnds of that I jumped to Winchester Match 69gr SMK HPBT.

The winchester match gave me groups about like this one:


I was not/am not super impressed with that. It measures about 1.4MOA or so for 100yds. However I did notice every group seemed to be taller rather than wider, which makes me think it darn well
might be me. I was shooting from some not so great, kinda cheap rests (they were not bags, more like hard foam thingies).

For the most part, the american eagle was all over the place, none too impressive. However, after having shot 20rnds of the winchester match. I had exactly 3 rounds of American eagle left in a box.
I loaded it up and it put this group out.


Thinking it might actually be good ammo and the barrel needed a bit of fouling to straighten out, I tried a bit more, only to have it go back to being all over the place. That started to make me think I got
lucky or something on those three.

I asked a friend about it, too, given my usual stressing nature. He has far more experience than I, and his immediate opinion was that it was my inexperience, not the rifle. I would actually love for that to be true.
That means I don't have a dud AND I get an excuse to shoot more. "But sweetie, I'm still not good enough, I have to go practice!"

Years ago I had a savage 12FV that was a heck of a shooter. It loved Black Hills 69gr SMK HPBT. I'm thinking I might give that a try too. I guess I'm hoping for the mythical "sub-MOA" performance that everyone
seems to claim.

Anyway, opinions?

 

[Lazer]

If it's 9 twist you won't get any real consistency out of those 69s, go back to something good around the 55 range shoot 4, 5 shot groups and let's see what happens.

 

[Tangodown911]

69g will do fine out of that barrel. Get a good rest/bag set up and try some different match ammo. Let someone else shoot it too.

 

[mdmp5]

It could definitely be your shooting, but shooting groups doesn't really prove much. I believe in being able to hit targets at distance with one shot. Tight groups are nice, but they don't always reflect the precision of the rifle. It is easy to pull a shot when you get anxious to get that super tight group

 

[lancetkenyon]

69 SMKs should shoot fine out of a 1 in 9" twist in my opinion also. My rifle is a 1 in 9" twist and has shot a .202" group at 100 yds. with 69 SMKs. A routinely sub-MOA rifle when I do my part.

I would say you need to shoot it more and that should help (both the gun and shooter). Mine shot OK (1-1.5 MOA) when brand new. Much better after a few 1000 rounds through it and also after dropping in a new trigger. Only been cleaned twice. About 800-1000 rounds between cleanings.

 

[Lazer]

Mijp, your statement is absolutely silly! "Shooting groups doesn't prove much" and "tight groups don't reflect the precision of a rifle" this is gonna get interesting !

 

[Drifter™]

Clean the barrel, then try again with different match ammo. 69's should be fine in a 9 twist.

New barrels can foul initially, which is why I suggest cleaning it. Then it will require some experimentation to learn what ammo it prefers.

 

[MosesTheTank]

Did your friend with more experience try the rifle? If so, how did it go? Maybe your friend has a rifle of known performance that the both of you could use for comparison? There are a lot of variables that make it difficult to diagnose from afar. I had one rifle that needed the scope rail pinned, which is odd in my experience. Another rifle I found only shoots a particular bullet well and it took a bit of experimentation to find the right one. Another time I forgot to torque the scope ring nuts. But that one tight group you have does make me wonder if you might let an experienced shooter give a go with your rifle and take it from there.

 

[Tangodown911]

The stuff I read here lately causes me to question if barfcom has been shut down.

 

[Bender]

Mijp, your statement is absolutely silly! "Shooting groups doesn't prove much" and "tight groups don't reflect the precision of a rifle" this is gonna get interesting !

What does shooting groups prove then? You know how to shoot groups? Big whoop. I shoot things. Not groups. Groups are chasing the useless and a waste of ammo. Zero it and go shoot.

 

[Lazer]

I'm out on this thread boys!

 

[6Dasher]

How in the heck do you test precision of your rifle/ammo if you only do one shot? WTF? That only hints at potential accuracy (where you hit it) if it's not just a flyer that ended up in the right place by accident, that's not anything resembling precision (hit the same pot every time).

If it's the ammo, the rifle or the shooter; if you can't hit the same spot twice then it's a crap combination no matter which is to blame. You can have a 1/4moa rifle and 1/3moa ammo, but if the shooter is 1.5 moa, then your groups will never be smaller than 1.5 moa (probably closer to 2 moa statistically). The other way around; if you are a 1/4moa shooter with 1moa ammo it will be the same pisspoor combination. The only way to find out which is the problem (ammo/shooter/rifle) is to go out and test groups.

If training is "stupid" and we should "just go out and shoot stuff" I think you're pretty much wasting bandwidth and range space. The only way to test and improve yourself is to train, and not just shoot gallon jugs of water or hope to hit that deer while huntin'


@TS: Letting someone else shoot and shooting off a rest is definitely a good method to rule out ammo/rifle or the shooter. Pick a shooter that you know is good though

 

[6Dasher]

"Know what you know, know what you don't know, never confuse the two."

Having this sig and making those statements... ironic...

 

[Hanzerik]

I would get more ammo and continue practicing/shooting. I don't have a .223, but in my .308 I brought 120 rounds with me on my initial outing with it. Everything from 168gr FGMM, AE 150gr/AE 168gr, Hornady Steel match. It gave me a chance to see how the gun shot, zero it, and get a feel for it. The factory triggers are OK, but can be a little on the heavy side. Replaced mine with a Timney and it helped out a bit on the accuracy side. Good ammo is important when you are trying for tiny groups, whether it be factory or hand loads. Also be consistent in the way you are shooting; position, sighting, breathing, trigger pull, follow through, etc.

And I understand the part about getting out more to shoot LOL. I try to get out as often as I can, but work and family makes that hard at times. I'll probably be getting the wife a .223 bolt gun, since she said no to wanting an AR, and she doesn't like shooting my 308. If that happens maybe we can spend more time on the long range stuff. She shoots her pistols a bunch; 1911 and P238, and her M&P 15-22, but no long range stuff.

I can see where Bender is coming from. Once you have your gun zeroed, know your velocity, and dope, it can be kind of boring to do nothing but shoot at paper targets all the time. If your range only goes out to 100-200 yards, there's not much you can do besides shoot paper, or other small targets. It's fun to trying to, and hitting clay pigeons out at 400-700 yards in a 45mph cross wind, gusting over 55mph. It's kind of a challenge. The range I go to has different steel targets at 300-700, with plans to go out to 950 (property border fence) this summer.

Just My Opinion..

 

[trickyric]

First I would check the rail. If you are using a cheap rail or the rings are not on correctly (happens a lot more than you would think) You could get micro movements.
I have fixed this problem for many friends who "saved money" on a cheap rail.
I prefer a rail with a locking lug like a Badger.

Next put the rifle on a steady bag or better yet a gun vice.(if you can get your hands on one).
If it is showing a spread when the rifle is locked down than we have some moving parts somewhere.
The 5R is a really good barrel so I doubt that is the problem.

 

[MosesTheTank]

There are lots of things you can practice at 100 or 200 yards. Positional shooting, dot drills and many other drills that you can make more challenging with time constraints.

What does shooting groups prove then? You know how to shoot groups? Big whoop. I shoot things. Not groups. Groups are chasing the useless and a waste of ammo. Zero it and go shoot.

I'm not sure I would dismiss the practice of shooting groups as pointless. In all of my experience shooting F Class, EIC, Military Vintage, and NRA Smallbore the goal is to hit an x ring consistently. Call us a bunch of fools, but putting shots in those black circles is precisely what Bender is advising against doing, shooting groups. The tighter your group around the center the higher your score.

 

[trickyric]

There are lots of things you can practice at 100 or 200 yards. Positional shooting, dot drills and many other drills that you can make more challenging with time constraints.



I'm not sure I would dismiss the practice of shooting groups as pointless. In all of my experience shooting F Class, EIC, Military Vintage, and NRA Smallbore the goal is to hit an x ring consistently. Call us a bunch of fools, but putting shots in those black circles is precisely what Bender is advising against doing, shooting groups. The tighter your group around the center the higher your score.

I have to agree. Shooting groups is great practice and it shows the discipline to concentrate consistently as well as verify your skills.

 

[B Man]

You have only tried two types of ammo. Don't freak man. Go buy a few types of match ammo and give it a swing another day.

Advice from my old man years ago. If you ever start to feel distracted, rushed, or stressed in any way while shooting, Walk away until another day! It only magnifies things and bad habits.

Post your results

 

[Bender]

Accuracy, me or the rifle?

I can see where Bender is coming from. Once you have your gun zeroed, know your velocity, and dope, it can be kind of boring to do nothing but shoot at paper targets all the time. If your range only goes out to 100-200 yards, there's not much you can do besides shoot paper, or other small targets. It's fun to trying to, and hitting clay pigeons out at 400-700 yards in a 45mph cross wind, gusting over 55mph. It's kind of a challenge. The range I go to has different steel targets at 300-700, with plans to go out to 950 (property border fence) this summer.

Just My Opinion..

This.^^^^^^

Are you going to shoot BR? Or are you going to shoot things. I think Low Lights dot drills are perfect. Make every shot your first shot. Group it once or twice then shoot things. But if you get your jollies shooting paper.... By all means. Shoot paper. I just get bored trying to shoot groups all the time. If you REALY want to shoot groups then drag out a shooting bench, or never leave the range. Take 15mins to shoot your 5rds and wait for PERFECT wind and Shoot out of a VICE and...... Well to me, this is a useless waste of ammo. But if I don't agree with you, the sun still will rise.

 

[Zmechanic]

First off, whoa. Didn't mean to start a tiff. Second, it took like two days for this thread to get modded, and in the process I tried starting a different one, so my apologies in advance if a duplicate surfaces..

To answer the general "what are you trying to accomplish?" sentiment. Well, I enjoy shooting steel and other things at range. I've had success with .223 out to 500M in calm conditions. I too would get dreadfully board just making holes in paper every range trip. However, I did want to see how it appeared to shoot, which seems to be a pretty common practice (I don't think I'm alone, anyway).

A few developments. I went over the rifle with a fine tooth comb and found a few things.
1. There is a ding on the face of the chamber. This was putting a nice long scratch down all the brass, I checked all that I had shot that day. However I don't think it's an accuracy concern, and after cycling a bunch of fired brass through it, it seems to be a lot better.
2. I found a small ding in the crown right where it transitions from the ID to the crown face. It was cerakoted over so it was that way from the factory. At first I was furious and flipping out, but I've read some articles that say the crown isn't all its cracked up to be in terms of an end-all-be-all accuracy factor. One guy even took a punch and carbide burr to his and his rifle still shot quite well (you guys have probably seen such articles).
3. I checked the scope ring torque at home the other day and two of the screws (one on each ring) seemed to have loosened slightly. By that, I mean it took some turning to get them back to 18 in/lbs.
4. The scope base isn't a cheapy. It's a warne tactical steel rail. It barely even needed bedded (only had about .004" gap at the back). It doesn't have a recoil lug, but 4 screws torqued to 25 in/lbs are gonna put a huge amount of friction on the receiver. AND I'm shooting .223, not a ton of recoil to start with. The scope base coming loose, well I suppose that's always possible, but I did torque it and loctite it.
5. The shoot it till it won't shoot anymore before cleaning vs make it shine debate. Well, not touching that one.

So I went round and round. Send it back? Have it re-crowned? Yadda yadda. However, I think I've come to realize I have not nearly shot it enough to make an assessment of how accurate it is. Heck, I'm not even sure I'm qualified to anyway. So I made a lunch run the other day to get some different types of ammo for it and I'm gonna shoot it some more and see what it does (or I do, hah). Having someone with more experience shoot it is still something I'd like to do.

 

[trickyric]

First off, whoa. Didn't mean to start a tiff. Second, it took like two days for this thread to get modded, and in the process I tried starting a different one, so my apologies in advance if a duplicate surfaces..

To answer the general "what are you trying to accomplish?" sentiment. Well, I enjoy shooting steel and other things at range. I've had success with .223 out to 500M in calm conditions. I too would get dreadfully board just making holes in paper every range trip. However, I did want to see how it appeared to shoot, which seems to be a pretty common practice (I don't think I'm alone, anyway).

A few developments. I went over the rifle with a fine tooth comb and found a few things.
1. There is a ding on the face of the chamber. This was putting a nice long scratch down all the brass, I checked all that I had shot that day. However I don't think it's an accuracy concern, and after cycling a bunch of fired brass through it, it seems to be a lot better.
2. I found a small ding in the crown right where it transitions from the ID to the crown face. It was cerakoted over so it was that way from the factory. At first I was furious and flipping out, but I've read some articles that say the crown isn't all its cracked up to be in terms of an end-all-be-all accuracy factor. One guy even took a punch and carbide burr to his and his rifle still shot quite well (you guys have probably seen such articles).
3. I checked the scope ring torque at home the other day and two of the screws (one on each ring) seemed to have loosened slightly. By that, I mean it took some turning to get them back to 18 in/lbs.
4. The scope base isn't a cheapy. It's a warne tactical steel rail. It barely even needed bedded (only had about .004" gap at the back). It doesn't have a recoil lug, but 4 screws torqued to 25 in/lbs are gonna put a huge amount of friction on the receiver. AND I'm shooting .223, not a ton of recoil to start with. The scope base coming loose, well I suppose that's always possible, but I did torque it and loctite it.
5. The shoot it till it won't shoot anymore before cleaning vs make it shine debate. Well, not touching that one.

So I went round and round. Send it back? Have it re-crowned? Yadda yadda. However, I think I've come to realize I have not nearly shot it enough to make an assessment of how accurate it is. Heck, I'm not even sure I'm qualified to anyway. So I made a lunch run the other day to get some different types of ammo for it and I'm gonna shoot it some more and see what it does (or I do, hah). Having someone with more experience shoot it is still something I'd like to do.

Did you say the screws were a touch loose. That could do it.
Go back to the range and test it again now that you have torqued the screws to the proper tension.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

This.^^^^^^

Are you going to shoot BR? Or are you going to shoot things. I think Low Lights dot drills are perfect. Make every shot your first shot. Group it once or twice then shoot things. But if you get your jollies shooting paper.... By all means. Shoot paper. I just get bored trying to shoot groups all the time. If you REALY want to shoot groups then drag out a shooting bench, or never leave the range. Take 15mins to shoot your 5rds and wait for PERFECT wind and Shoot out of a VICE and...... Well to me, this is a useless waste of ammo. But if I don't agree with you, the sun still will rise.

Now that your done beating your chest and letting us all know that you only use your rifles to hunt, step aside and let others offer some opinions on how the Op can improve his rifles accuracy. We're all pretty sure your not the Op, and you have a different style of shooting so why are you trying to dissuade him from having fun shooting paper? Actually, don't answer that please.. There are other hunting forums that will suit you much better than the Hide if you only want to discuss rifles for hunting. Those views are a minority on this site.
I shoot paper, steel, and mammals that fill my freezer. Why? Because sometimes game is out of season and I still like to shoot my rifles.

Z. Give it some time and definitely try various kinds of match ammo. By one box of whatever you find and see what your rifles like. I have had custom rifles that shoot just like yours with one type of ammo and shoot one hole 5 shot groups with other brands. Hand loading will bring out the maximum accuracy in a rifle. But typically, Federal Match seems to be the most consistently accurate match ammo in various calibers. Do this after re-checking all your torque values and let us know how it turns out.

 

[mdmp5]

Wow...I try to keep my responses succinct when possible, but from some of the polarizing responses to my statement, I guess I have to elaborate more. Everyone wants to shoot tight groups all the time, including me. But if I shoot one group of ¼ MOA, then my next one is 3/4 MOA, does that mean my rifle is a piece of shit, my ammo sucks, or I am a bad shooter? I don't think so; most likely I pulled a couple of shots. Mind you, I am talking about shooting the same ammo, hand loaded or factory. I have shot some real tight groups at 100 yds, only to go the distance and unable to hit targets entirely. The opposite was true too; crappy groups, but great hits out to 1000. I started this hobby shooting 100 yd groups, and was pretty good at it. Today, my groups may not be as tight, but I can shoot distance. I consider myself a better shooter being able to shoot varying distances with 1 round hits, than just shooting tight groups at 100 yds.

Let me conclude by saying that shooting groups is a hobby in itself. If you are into bench rest or F class, then you need to shoot tight groups period, so by all means practice. But if you are relying on your groups as the ultimate judgement of your rifle or you, you are gonna be disappointed.

 

[mdmp5]

Add this: I am a very good shot with a pistol; much better than with a rifle. I can shoot very tight groups at 50 ft. This didn't translate into anything else other than shooting a group at 50 ft. When the variables changed for me, shooting reactive targets, double tapping, shooting objects, etc, I wasn't such a great pistol shot anymore. I had to practice those other skills, then I improved. There is more to shooting than groups. I believe that unless you are shooting matches that require tight groupings, you can sap the fun out of the sport by becoming obsessed with groups alone. Just go out there and have a good time and practice skills. The accuracy will come.

 

[hollowoutadime]

For the OP,

I feel your pain.

I have a new Win model 70 in .243 that was planned to reach out a bit farther than my rem 40x in 220 swift. I installed a Timney trigger, put good glass on it (Leupold MK 4 8.5x25x50 mil dot) and worked up 18 loads from 55g to 110g with most of the popular/reliable powders suited for that caliber. Most of the 100yd groups are slightly over 1". I routinely shoot much better than that so I am regrettably thinking I wasted about $1500+ in rifle, brass, handloading rounds, etc. This will be a good coyote gun at 200 yds, at that is about it.

As for the paper/target argument - if I can't group well on paper at 200yds, than I don't expect to regularly register hits at 500yds on small critters. That Win .243 will not be making any out of state trips on my pdog calendar.

Assuming your eyes, breathing, rifle, and environment are up to snuff and you can shoot better - I'd certainly try different loads, but also consider cutting your losses at some point.

 

[Zmechanic]

For the OP,

I feel your pain.

I have a new Win model 70 in .243 that was planned to reach out a bit farther than my rem 40x in 220 swift. I installed a Timney trigger, put good glass on it (Leupold MK 4 8.5x25x50 mil dot) and worked up 18 loads from 55g to 110g with most of the popular/reliable powders suited for that caliber. Most of the 100yd groups are slightly over 1". I routinely shoot much better than that so I am regrettably thinking I wasted about $1500+ in rifle, brass, handloading rounds, etc. This will be a good coyote gun at 200 yds, at that is about it.

As for the paper/target argument - if I can't group well on paper at 200yds, than I don't expect to regularly register hits at 500yds on small critters. That Win .243 will not be making any out of state trips on my pdog calendar.

Assuming your eyes, breathing, rifle, and environment are up to snuff and you can shoot better - I'd certainly try different loads, but also consider cutting your losses at some point.

Haha, I'm trying not to think like that until I try out more stuff. I have been very pleased with everything else so far about the rifle (hah). I figure if it doesn't behave things will start changing. Kind of the sunk cost argument. For the price of jumping ship now, I could do a lot with it. Trued action, new barrel, new trigger, etc. I will do my due diligence before I start throwing parts at it though.

 

[Bender]

All I am saying is I don't see many practical "snipers" worrying about group sizes. Hit the target. Steel. Prairie dog. Jack. Or whatever and move on. But I don't know everything either. Just don't see the use of it other than the first load development or new gun. Cary on.

 

[X47Lapua]

By definition accuracy and precision both require multiple shots. When I got my rem 700 new and was working on loads I had the first shot hit bullseye and the next two inches low. If I called it good with the first shot is never hit anything I shot at.

 

[Sharpsman]

This silly game we play....and I've been playing it for 60 years now revolves around CONSISTENCY....whether it be in whatever venue and CONSISTENCY in reloading and in paying attention to the hardcore rules of marksmanship which are unyielding in their nature! When getting a new rifle/cartridge I shoot groups but I don't do it from 100 yards; rather I start at 200 & 300 yards and if all seems well....I'll then take it to 600 yards and again...if all well there I then see what I've got from 1000. My experience has been that whether I were shooting the Palma course or the standard NMC if the rifle/cartridge combo shot well from 600 yds. that it would generally perform well at 1000 also. Provided the right load, rate of twist and bullet is chosen, one way to determine the all important CONSISTENCY of the efforts extended is to determine if tight groups are delivered!

 

[ColoYooper]

For me, if the group is awesome, I'll take the credit...if it sucks, I blame the rifle...(I've had a pile of piss poor rifles )

 

[Zmechanic]

So I took the rifle out this weekend and have been playing with it. With Federal GMM 69gr SMK I was able able to get 1 5-shout group right at about .75 MOA and another right at 1 MOA. The smaller group took every ounce of my concentration. Haha. I'm still getting the feel of this rifle. I went ahead and backed the trigger pull quite a bit down. I didn't realize how stiff it was from the factory until I adjusted it.

Also, as for it scratching the hell out of brass. It's not the chamber at all. Laying awake in bed, suddenly it hit me the scratch goes all the way down across the rim which never touches the chamber. Sure enough, there are a bunch of sharp edges left on the factory feed lips in the receiver. They are just sharp 90 edges. When a round gets stripped, it slides them along these sharp edges and it cuts a nice gash like a freakin knife. Awesome. I started working on that last night and hope to have it sorted soon.

Can't decide if I should get a decent rest/bag setup for the bench, or go bipod route for versatility. I like bipods though, and I especially enjoy shooting prone. We'll see.

 

[The Gump]

Sound like inconsistancy in cheek weld or breath. FYI, I am no one special. I'm not an instructor. I just shoot a little. I would tape some firm fome to the comb to align your eye with the center line of the scope and go from there.

I would get a bipod and rear bag.

 

[inthewind]

I am interested in cheek weld and breathing as well. I recently read "The Ulitmate Sniper" by the famous Col. Plaster. Several photos reveal military snipers wrapping their stocks with mole skin to adjust height and cheek weld. Shooting off sandbags is the 'gold standard' for stability in this book. I am making a study of shooting off sandbags, bench rest, camera tripod with modified attachments. Many things effect group size and accuracy. That first cold shot is the most critical.

 

[Hanzerik]

My feed lips on my SPS 308 were doing the same thing. Took one of my wife's Emory boards (nail file), and some fine sandpaper and ran it across them a few times when I had it out of the stock. Helped out a bunch.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

OP,

The only thing we know for sure about your groups is holes on the target indicate where the barrel was pointed. Since all firing takes place at the rifle, there are two methods of shooter/target analysis: observation and call/strike evaluation. Without a highly qualified coach to observe you as you shoot you only have one means, call/strike evaluation, to come to understand whether your poor shooting is likely you or the rifle. If the rifle is broken or ammunition is defective, shots will not go on call, period. If shots do indeed go on call but are not right-in-there then the error indicates inconsistent control of the rifle. Shots called right-in-there that are right-in-there shows rifle and marksmanship are harmonious.

Since your original post placed all emphasis on equipment and none on the principles of marksmanship or the elements and factors of a steady position, i.e. you did not mention your means of analysis, only your expectations, I would suspect that you have not yet learned how to shoot; and, you are likely using your equipment as substitutes for marksmanship rather than aids to it. You may simply not know that you do not know, and, perhaps, you have incorrectly concluded that execution of the two firing tasks is the equivalent of knowing how to shoot.

Because equipment can serve as a substitute for marksmanship at close distance, as Sharpsman suggested, take your equipment to the 300 yard line for more meaningful appraisal of everything.
Also, get some basic marksmanship training and work on building a muscularly relaxed position.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I am interested in cheek weld and breathing as well. I recently read "The Ulitmate Sniper" by the famous Col. Plaster. Several photos reveal military snipers wrapping their stocks with mole skin to adjust height and cheek weld. Shooting off sandbags is the 'gold standard' for stability in this book. I am making a study of shooting off sandbags, bench rest, camera tripod with modified attachments. Many things effect group size and accuracy. That first cold shot is the most critical.

I read the book. I did not learn anything from it. Col. Plaster is not an authority on marksmanship. And, If marksmanship, rather than field craft, is the subject, I think reading the USAMU's Service Rifle Guide would be a more useful study.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Sound like inconsistancy in cheek weld or breath. FYI, I am no one special. I'm not an instructor. I just shoot a little. I would tape some firm fome to the comb to align your eye with the center line of the scope and go from there.

I would get a bipod and rear bag.

All good shooting has its roots in consistency. Your other thoughts, "I would get a bipod and rear bag" can actually undermine consistency. The bipod is a great rest but a lousy support. It dulls the sense of NPA; and, does not promote control of the rifle as other combinations of bone/artificial support. The use of a rear bag in prone may promote a position too low, where the head cannot be maintained in a upright position for a proper eyepiece/eyeball relationship without muscular tension. It is the shooter's head that should dictate the height of the position. And when the rifle is brought to the head, rather than head to stock laying on the bag, the position will be at a proper height to accommodate sight alignment. Thereafter, placing the butt stock in the pocket formed in the shoulder is sufficient for a solid position. No bag is needed and that's good, since use of the bag would force distress. Techniques to properly use both the bipod and rear bag for good support in certain applications can be learned but without instruction on how to properly use these aids they will only serve as poor substitutes for marksmanship at short range. Learning first to build the position with bone/sandbag or bone alone will inspire a steady position without distraction and without need of advanced training.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

All I am saying is I don't see many practical "snipers" worrying about group sizes. Hit the target. Steel. Prairie dog. Jack. Or whatever and move on. But I don't know everything either. Just don't see the use of it other than the first load development or new gun. Cary on.

The bottom-line is shooting a group is necessary for zeroing. Begin with this fact: The literal definition of a zero is where the line of sight and bullet path intersect and their resulting value in any form of measurement is zero. Now, since the literal definition cannot be easily realized, that's to say, most shooters cannot hit the target exactly where aimed, it becomes necessary to shoot a group from which triangulation defines the theoretical zero. Once zeroed, there indeed may not be any reason to shoot groups; but, this is what some folks like to do. They do not need to justify their actions. Shooting small groups for these folks is just plain fun. Good grouping for them is an indicator of progress and an inspiration to pursue greater excellence. My own enjoyment with the concept was abandoned for other concepts I thought I needed to juggle to get my HM rating. That was a mistake, shooting for just a good hit on the target or even a good score is not enough of a challenge to actually get the best results. This is why I am now back to shooting groups with the objective to actually realize the literal definition. I may not get there but I am certain will have more X's on my score card.

 

[usmc02xx]

Haha, I'm trying not to think like that until I try out more stuff. I have been very pleased with everything else so far about the rifle (hah). I figure if it doesn't behave things will start changing. Kind of the sunk cost argument. For the price of jumping ship now, I could do a lot with it. Trued action, new barrel, new trigger, etc. I will do my due diligence before I start throwing parts at it though.

my 2 cents.. give it a few hundred rounds to break in before you even start worrying about it. If you arent handloading then you will need to find an ammo that fits your rifle. every rifle is different. 69gn will shoot just fine out of a 1/9. My sps in 223 and B&C stock holds .5 moa using a 69gn smk. Its 1/9 also. Sounds liek its off to a good start, just shop around for some different ammo or start handloadiing. thats where a lot of the "tune" of your rifle comes from anyway.

 

[Zmechanic]

Alright, so I've been researching everything I can about proper shooting, etc, etc and I'd say it's paying off. This was the best group last weekend shooting from the bench with a bipod.


5 Shots of FGGM 69gr SMK. About 15 rounds through a freshly cleaned barrel (first cleaning for the gun) before shooting the group. It measures out right around 0.5moa.


It looked like one hole through the scope.

The more I shoot my gun, the less I think my B&C stock is "all that". Now I seriously want LOP and comb adjustment. Right now I have a cheapo $6 shell holder with a cut up towel stuffed under it for cheek adjustment. Having a solid cheek weld is like night and day though.

 

[jashmore1234]

What is the pull weight of the trigger?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

Mijp, your statement is absolutely silly! "Shooting groups doesn't prove much" and "tight groups don't reflect the precision of a rifle" this is gonna get interesting !

so is yours saying 69smk wont shoot well in a 9 twist barrel. there's thousands of people here that will beg to differ.

 

[nexusfire]

Do the obvious things first:

1. the the scope mounts and rail
2. shoot from a good rest

Then:

1. get some good ammo (hornady match or FGGM), bullet weight is not that important.
2. have a buddy shoot it and see if they get the same results. find the best shooter you can.

I have a 223 that has about 4000 rounds down it. I have found that 75 grain Hornady match does not shoot much different than 40gr Fiocchi VMAX. It is a 1:8 twist 22" Krieger barrel. The idea is to eliminate the ammo as the possible source of the problem. You should be happy with your last group.

 

[6Dasher]

Nice improvement Z !!! And technically it is one hole

 

[Lazer]

Kill switch , see my target a on the 100 yd challenge that's w 52smks it's a factory barrel. Not saying that target won't be beat just sAying it won't be beat w 69s.

 

[thespecialist]

The more I shoot my gun, the less I think my B&C stock is "all that". Now I seriously want LOP and comb adjustment. Right now I have a cheapo $6 shell holder with a cut up towel stuffed under it for cheek adjustment. Having a solid cheek weld is like night and day though.

Adjustable comb height is easy, there's several options out there that will work for the stock you have. $25 plus shipping will get you an adjustable cheek rest from XLR Industries (Kyle is good people, BTW). Drill 2 holes in the stock, purchase 2 stainless 2 1/4" 1/4-20 screws from the hardware store and 2 1/4-20 acorn nuts to secure it with. 10 minutes of work and less than $40 and you're done.

Or; order a Karsten cheek rest made out of Kydex (IIRC). It will come with the hardware, but the XLR option is much nicer IMHO.

Option 3; PM StockDoc on here and have hm install a KMW Loggerhead setup in your stock. I believe it's right around $175-$200.

LOP is trickier, but can be done as well. There are adjustable buttplates out there that can be made to work with a lot of fitting and a little cutting on your stock. Midway has them for about $65. I've been thinking of putting one on my HS Precision stock on my 260, but haven't committed to the idea yet. No idea what a smith would charge to install one, but I can bet it wouldn't be cheap.

 

[Zuul]

OP, it sure feels good when the groups start tightening up! Not too long ago I was having issues similar to what you posted. One thing that has really helped me out is to set up my shooting mat in the garage, put one of those small orange circle target stickers on the far wall, and do dry firing practices. I'd do 20 to 50 dry fires a night a few times a week and work on things like body placement, making sure the butt of the stock was correctly positioned in the shoulder pocket, trigger pull, loading the bipod, etc. One of the main things I was severely lacking was consistency when I got behind my gun. Now that I have established a "ritual", my groups are getting a lot better.

 

[T2CH]

Good shooting Z. I have a 5R .223 as well with a 20" threaded barrel and found for factory ammo, the 69 FGMM work extremely well. The 77's did very well also.