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Precision Rifle Gear Adaptive Tuner - Kinetic Security Solutions

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Minuteman
  • Apr 12, 2001
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    I am jumping into the Tuner World, which I think is an awesome direction,

    adaptivetuner.JPG

    Grabbed a few to give them a try, for a guy like me who uses factory ammo, this should be a nice improvement.
    I know we have a bunch of other tuner threads, didn't see a dedicated Adaptive ones.
     
    I am so looking forward to your review on these. I only use factory ammo so was wondering if they would help.
     
    What made you go with the ATS?
     
    I bought one in November and have played with it on a .223 (28" Bartlein / Varmint contour). Installed per instructions... Adjusted in increments of two marks as advised... and saw no real difference across seven (7) 2-round "groups" (~ an inch apart) of 77gr SMKs at 2900fps. So I cranked two full turns on the thing and started over at 0. I found a "node" at mark 4 which cut the groups in half (like where the rifle should shoot anyway). That setting also seemed to work well with 75gr ELD-Ms at 2925fps.

    Yesterday, I found a lower node at 2835fps with the 77s. Four rounds into a quarter inch and the 5th bleeping round doubled the size.

    At some point I'll try the tuner one one or both of my 6.5CMs. @Rob01 has some experience the tuner on his, and maybe with his .223 since I last talked with him.

    Very interested in other shooters' experiences with the tuner.
     
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    I posted my experiences in the Tuner thread in the Bolt Rifle section a while back but I am sold on the ATS tuner. Great to be able to screw it on and use the brake of my choice over it. I have only used it on my 6.5 Creedmoor with a few lots of factory ammo and it was easy to tune. Below is one pic of one tuning target I used. Lot 715 only took one two position turn. Lot 537 started at target #2 as #1 was used for another lot. I only had 12 rounds in the box of ammo I grabbed so that is where it stopped but you can see them getting closer with adjusting 2 lines at a time on the tuner. I was pissed I grabbed a partial box as that lot never really shot good in that rifle.

    To the rifle, it had over 2300 rounds when I did this test. Barrel has been pulled and I am putting the ATS on my new barrel.

    IMG_0758.JPG
     
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    Reactions: JGR1953
    I posted my experiences in the Tuner thread in the Bolt Rifle section a while back but I am sold on the ATS tuner. Great to be able to screw it on and use the brake of my choice over it. I have only used it on my 6.5 Creedmoor with a few lots of factory ammo and it was easy to tune. Below is one pic of one tuning target I used. Lot 715 only took one two position turn. Lot 537 started at target #2 as #1 was used for another lot. I only had 12 rounds in the box of ammo I grabbed so that is where it stopped but you can see them getting closer with adjusting 2 lines at a time on the tuner. I was pissed I grabbed a partial box as that lot never really shot good in that rifle.

    To the rifle, it had over 2300 rounds when I did this test. Barrel has been pulled and I am putting the ATS on my new barrel.

    View attachment 7521128
    I agree versatility at a reasonable price and they flat out work.
    Great job Aaron Hipp !
    IMG_0807a.JPG
    IMG_0805a.JPG
    IMG_0803a.JPG
     
    I've got mine mounted on a 6BRA barrel. I've only tried tuning a little during load development, I hope to get out and do a little more this week. I did see groups open and close, but I didn't find a 'node' of multiple adjustment settings with small groups like I sometimes hear.

    Where did you guys start the tuning? Mine is pretty close to this image, which is what I think the instructions call for as a starting point, but I can't help but think there may be some benefit to running it further forward.

     
    Pretty sure the instructions say to start with it flush. That is where I started.
     
    Instructions say leave it where it arrived

    So how you took it out of the box is where you are supposed to start

    Then 2 hash increments is how I read it for centerfire
     
    In 2-hash increments, what is the total adjustment range? Put another way, how much ammo may be necessary for a tuning session? Just ordered one and want to be ready with ammo in hand...
     
    That would depend on the ammo. One took one turn and another was 6 and probably needed another couple. Have 20-40 rounds ready and you should be fine.
     
    @Rob01 do you do a full turn to the second hash or just turn 2 hash marks over, shoot, 2 hash marks over shoot, or full turn to the 2nd hash, shoot, full turn, to next 2nd hash ?

    It sort read like a full turn, but then it said 22 stuff, and then 2 hash increments, so I was a bit confused by that part
     
    The directions say start with tuner just behind the face of the collar, which is where I started. I then screwed in (towards the action) 2 hashes per over a total range of 3 revs. I found two positions that grouped well, about a turn an a half apart.

    I'm just wondering how many rotations 'in' people are finding good groups - are you closer to the muzzle, or moving quite a bit in towards the action? I'll probably start a bit closer to the muzzle for this new load.
     
    I've been mulling this one over as well. Do we yet know when he will have his stock replenished?
     
    From flush there are roughly 4 revolutions with 24 marks per revolution. So basically 100.

    For what its worth there is also ~3 revolutions forward of flush before the set screw reaches the end of the inner piece.
     
    I bought one off the PX to try. Didn’t see much if anything but my 6.5 loads were already tuned. I have thought it might be more useful for factory ammo but never got around to testing it. I am curious how your tests will go.
     
    @Rob01 do you do a full turn to the second hash or just turn 2 hash marks over, shoot, 2 hash marks over shoot, or full turn to the 2nd hash, shoot, full turn, to next 2nd hash ?

    It sort read like a full turn, but then it said 22 stuff, and then 2 hash increments, so I was a bit confused by that part

    @lowlight just two haskmarks over and shoot 2 shots. No more than two is needed. You can see them come together. After I get the setting I shot a 5 shot group. Also I went so the outer section is coming back towards me as I turn it. Just so it's not going to interfere with anything in front.

    After I got done I took a pic of the lot of ammo and setting so I had a record of where it is set. I just used the center of the brake as the reference point.

    IMG_0754.JPG
     
    Taking photos as a note. Nice. I do the same, but also have a log book of data. Redundancy. Good idea to record ammo lots.
     
    The fact people have to mark their barrels seems like a design flaw to me.

    You don’t have to. Just using the top center is enough but some people like reference points.
     
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    Waiting on the EC tuner/brake, I did order a .750 shaft collar to see if that works as well. Saw some dude on youtube do it and it worked lol I'll be shooting at the range anyways may as well try for a couple bucks.

    How much do the other tuners weigh outta curiosity? I'll go weigh this collar real quick. 54 grams or 834 grains for the collar.
     
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    Waiting on the EC tuner/brake, I did order a .750 shaft collar to see if that works as well. Saw some dude on youtube do it and it worked lol I'll be shooting at the range anyways may as well try for a couple bucks.

    How much do the other tuners weigh outta curiosity? I'll go weigh this collar real quick.
    The ATS competition model weighs 6oz and his XL model weighs 7oz and a hunting model that weighs 3.7oz
     
    Hmm Maybe I will try one solo and glue 2 together which would bring it to almost 4 OZ and try that. It was a pack of 4 so I could just add to until it works best lol. Superglue is cheap. :)

    How much movement is "2 clicks"?
     
    Hmm Maybe I will try one solo and glue 2 together which would bring it to almost 4 OZ and try that. It was a pack of 4 so I could just add to until it works best lol. Superglue is cheap. :)

    How much movement is "2 clicks"?
    There are 24 hash marks per full turn of the tuning collar. The thing does not "click" like a scope turret.
     
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    Reactions: Smittiac
    I know it doesn't click lol, I'm just trying to make my life easier by getting measurements to mark on my barrel since it's not threaded.

    EDIT: Eric already has $235 bucks from me and I totally don't want FUGLY Shaft collars glued together on my barrel. I just wanna see if it works while I impatiently wait on the real deal.
     
    I wonder if Tuners need to be so big and have so many revolutions. Speaking to F-Class shooters who have been using tuners for years, they talk about patters repeating around revolutions and that small changes in settings can have a material impact on groups. We really don't need 3-5 revolutions and hundred+ settings especially if you have a well-made rifle, use good components and have done some basic load development. We are 'tuning' a load that shoots well already.

    With that in mind, I am trialling the EC 'Micro' Tuner which is basically Erik's tuner reduced in weight by 40% for finer / less coarse adjustments.

    I tried various settings and Groups 0, 3, 4, 5 and 10 were sub 1/4 MOA with 0, 3 & especially 5 showing the most promise/repeatability following a second round. This was shot with new brass standing from a bench and I only used half the travel available from the EC ‘Micro’ tuner. I am planning to take those settings out to distance soon.
    130824881_2858296574493508_115043761876542636_n.jpeg
    IMG_8074.jpeg
     
    Just my thoughts,

    Tuners aren't only for people with custom ammo. The biggest benefit is likely for people shooting factory ammo. I have 1 and a second on order and to me it cuts down load development enough that its worth it. So far I only used it on 1 rifle but I was able to take a load that was flat velocity wise but not great accuracy and make it shoot well without alot of fuss.

    F class loads are already more refined than many loads people here talk about so the comparison isn't exact atleast to me.

    The more adjustment you have the more options there are.

    Heavy short barrels should take more adjustment than a hunting barrel.

    Ymmv
     
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    Just my thoughts,

    Tuners aren't only for people with custom ammo. The biggest benefit is likely for people shooting factory ammo. I have 1 and a second on order and to me it cuts down load development enough that its worth it. So far I only used it on 1 rifle but I was able to take a load that was flat velocity wise but not great accuracy and make it shoot well without alot of fuss.

    F class loads are already more refined than many loads people here talk about so the comparison isn't exact atleast to me.

    The more adjustment you have the more options there are.

    Heavy short barrels should take more adjustment than a hunting barrel.

    Ymmv
    I think you are right and that is why I believe we will see tuners adapt. Those for competition and those for factory ammo. Both require a different solution. For my test, I just threw in a random powder charge into tight neck new brass to get me into the velocity ballpark I wanted and then I seat to 20 thou off. Nothing more than that. Trust me, I am easily the worst reloader on the Hide. Factory ammo would probably be an upgrade for me :LOL:
     
    Add to it that as much as everybody thinks they are “good” reloaders

    More often than not these experts openly admit the factory match that’s used as their baseline still shoots better.

    True r-class and BR guys load development and gear are not the norm
     
    The fact people have to mark their barrels seems like a design flaw to me.

    I've marked my brakes for years so that I can tell if they have moved, do to having several friends that have had them come loose during matches. My tuners haven't moved, but I like to glance at it before I start shooting for the day.
     
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    I wonder if Tuners need to be so big and have so many revolutions. Speaking to F-Class shooters who have been using tuners for years, they talk about patters repeating around revolutions and that small changes in settings can have a material impact on groups. We really don't need 3-5 revolutions and hundred+ settings especially if you have a well-made rifle, use good components and have done some basic load development. We are 'tuning' a load that shoots well already.

    With that in mind, I am trialling the EC 'Micro' Tuner which is basically Erik's tuner reduced in weight by 40% for finer / less coarse adjustments.

    I tried various settings and Groups 0, 3, 4, 5 and 10 were sub 1/4 MOA with 0, 3 & especially 5 showing the most promise/repeatability following a second round. This was shot with new brass standing from a bench and I only used half the travel available from the EC ‘Micro’ tuner. I am planning to take those settings out to distance soon.View attachment 7522095View attachment 7522096
    Tuners do need to have a certain amount of weight to them but they don’t really need more than one revolution as long as they have a thread pitch of 24 or greater. Never needed more than one revolution to dial in a load and if you’re using more than one then you’re probably wasting ammo and might need to re-asses your loading/tuning techniques. The reason they have so much adjustment is thread engagement. The more the better.
     
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    I bought a couple. One with the 1/2-28 thread and the other in 5/8-24. I tried the 1/2-28 out on a .224 Valkyire and didn't see any difference. Then I put it on a .22LR rifle, and again, there was no difference.

    I kept adjusting it in 2-click increments. There just wasn't any difference. I suppose I could do like one person did and that was to turn the darn thing in several revolutions until I see some results.

    So what am I doing wrong?
     
    You need to try the entire adj range. Or atleast until you see a change you want.
     
    You need to try the entire adj range. Or atleast until you see a change you want.

    You are probably correct. I may just turn it as far as I can to the rear then start moving forward until I can see a change. When I tried it before, it was all the way forward and I started moving it in 2-click increments to the rear with no discernable change. After darn near 50 rounds, I gave up.
     
    You are probably correct. I may just turn it as far as I can to the rear then start moving forward until I can see a change. When I tried it before, it was all the way forward and I started moving it in 2-click increments to the rear with no discernable change. After darn near 50 rounds, I gave up.

    For 22LR, I had to do 2.5 revolutions until I found my tightest groups. The updated instructions say to

    1610031737357.png
     
    I've marked my brakes for years so that I can tell if they have moved, do to having several friends that have had them come loose during matches. My tuners haven't moved, but I like to glance at it before I start shooting for the day.

    Im thinking of using it on more than one rifle. It has no reference point to allow me to set it to X for one and XX on the other.
    for example.
    20210107_073239.jpg


    Not the end of the world, I'll end up putting one on it. Just a little annoyed they give a little cheesy arrow sticker to put on your barrel like an afterthought.
     
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    Im thinking of using it on more than one rifle. It has no reference point to allow me to set it to X for one and XX on the other.
    for example.
    View attachment 7522188

    Not the end of the world, I'll end up putting one on it. Just a little annoyed they give a little cheesy arrow sticker to put on your barrel like an afterthought.

    Simple enough to put a mark on the front of the tuner so it's on there and not the barrel. There are way more pros to the ATS than a single con being a reference mark.
     
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    I got out again over the weekend to tune out the new load. I started with the weight a smidge forward of the collar, and had the load tuned in three adjustments. At first, I thought I had made a mistake moving it that far forward, as I had a three shot group go a little over an inch... but then .5, and .3, and it stayed at .3 for a 5 shot confirmation group at the end, which is about how well I can hold on my best days. Added plus, it stacked splashes on steel at 600y, so tuning at 100 seems to be holding true for distance.

    I got the ATS after seeing the hype of the EC tuner, and not wanting to have to send barrels off to be re-machined - so far, the ATS hasn't disappointed.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Rob01 and JGR1953
    I got out again over the weekend to tune out the new load. I started with the weight a smidge forward of the collar, and had the load tuned in three adjustments. At first, I thought I had made a mistake moving it that far forward, as I had a three shot group go a little over an inch... but then .5, and .3, and it stayed at .3 for a 5 shot confirmation group at the end, which is about how well I can hold on my best days. Added plus, it stacked splashes on steel at 600y, so tuning at 100 seems to be holding true for distance.

    I got the ATS after seeing the hype of the EC tuner, and not wanting to have to send barrels off to be re-machined - so far, the ATS hasn't
     
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    Has anyone heard if production is on schedule? I pulled the trigger on an XL.
     
    I have to say the process drove me crazy I was not prepared mentally for wasting this many rounds at 100 yards... it broke my brain

    The biggest bitch was, before I started my test group looked like this:
    IMG_1053.JPG


    So I am starting from a point here, and then the groups were going big, smaller, not quite small enough, bigger, it drove me nuts. I hated it playing with it.

    I threw a ton of fliers too that made me hate it even more and question the entire process. Is that ME or the tuner doing it, is that two in one hole and a 3rd, is that group good enough or should I try more. The mental aspect of this process should not be overlooked.

    Then to make matters worse, my suppressor came loose twice, once the can, and it's an OSS Reverse thread, I think initially there was some contact I missed. Then the brake loosened up so I took it off and started over.

    Another brain breaker, trying do to it on a 8x11 sheet of paper. I did not go to my range, I met Chris Way at a local 200 yard range near Denver. I had built a target at my range, like many above, used a 3/8" orange pasty, spread wide apart. Doing it on a single sheet made it a mess personally. I hated it.

    Now all that said, that is all me, I can see these working but at what point, The idea is simple enough, David Tubb talked about it with his brake, moving the self timing brake back and forth to tune.

    So it actually lends to ideas.

    I shot way too many rounds for about a 1/4" increase, so in my mind this is the perfect factory gun fix, or seating depth replacement. I know speaking to a Palma Shooter they talked internal Ballistics a ton. Chasing lands, chasing barrel, to me here is where the tuners would shine.

    I think the thing that killed me mentally was when a group got bigger. If I threw a round farther than before. Almost every group was just one round out there, 90% were two round in one hole, one round out, so you are Constantly questioning your own shooting. E Blah I hate the amount of ammo I was shooting at paper.

    But I plan on moving forward, I think I might cherry pick rifles to use, my Bartlein barrels don't really need it initially

    And for me not having all my kit with me, no spotter, you have to literally walk down every single shot. I had actually missed a perfect stopping point because from behind the rifle I didn't see what I thought I did, (didn't have my prescription glasses with me either, total operator error, self induced clusterfuck ). so I could have been finished in like 18 rounds and been happy, instead of 68 rounds ... and stopping.
     
    Last edited:
    I have to say the process drove me crazy I was not prepared mentally for wasting this many rounds at 100 yards... it broke my brain

    The biggest bitch was, before I started my test group looked like this:
    View attachment 7528726

    So I am starting from a point here, and then the groups were going big, smaller, not quite small enough, bigger, it drove me nuts. I hated it playing with it.

    I threw a ton of fliers too that made me hate it even more and question the entire process. Is that ME or the tuner doing it, is that two in one hole and a 3rd, is that group good enough or should I try more. The mental aspect of this process should not be overlooked.

    Then to make matters worse, my suppressor came loose twice, once the can, and it's an OSS Reverse thread, I think initially there was some contact I missed. Then the brake loosened up so I took it off and started over.

    Another brain breaker, trying do to it on a 8x11 sheet of paper. I did not go to my range, I met Chris Way at a local 200 yard range near Denver. I had built a target at my range, like many above, used a 3/8" orange pasty, spread wide apart. Doing it on a single sheet made it a mess personally. I hated it.

    Now all that said, that is all me, I can see these working but at what point, The idea is simple enough, David Tubb talked about it with his brake, moving the self timing brake back and forth to tune.

    So it actually lends to ideas.

    I shot way too many rounds for about a 1/4" increase, so in my mind this is the perfect factory gun fix, or seating depth replacement. I know speaking to a Palma Shooter they talked internal Ballistics a ton. Chasing lands, chasing barrel, to me here is where the tuners would shine.

    I think the thing that killed me mentally was when a group got bigger. Of threw a round farther than before. Almost every group was just one round out there, 90% were two round in one hole, one round out, so you are Constantly questioning your own shooting. E Blah I hate the amount of ammo I was shooting at paper.

    But I plan on moving forward, I think I might cherry pick rifles to use, my Bartlein barrels don't really need it initially

    And for me not having all my kit with me, no spotter, you have to literally walk down every single shot. I had actually missed a perfect stopping point because from behind the rifle I didn't see what I thought I did, (didn't have my prescription glasses with me either, total operator error, self induced clusterfuck ). so I could have been finished in like 18 rounds and been happy, instead of 68 rounds ... and stopping.

    Short story is that I sold mine.

    I was doing rimfire, but shooting Center-X and went through a little over 400 rounds. I started off with 1/4" groups at 50 yards, and went through the tuner, groups got bigger, groups got smaller. And I thought I found a node that was smaller, but then I started getting flyers, and I swear it wasn't me. So I started pulling off the tuner and trying it at a blank slate.

    So after 400 rounds, I ended up just feeling more confident that my rifle and my lot of Center-X was already 'tuned' to each other, and left my rifle without it.

    I've seen people running factory rifles, factory ammo getting great results though. Taking groups that were .7" at 50 yards, and shrinking them down to .4". So moral of the story is if you're shooting 1/2 moa groups already with your ammo/rifle, don't burn a bunch of ammo on the tuner. If you happen to have a stack of ammo that's shooting like 1.2 moa, the tuner can probably lower it down to 3/4.
     
    I'm glad l held off on ordering one. Thanks for the input everyone. I guess my money would be better spent elsewhere right now but I plan on revisiting the idea at a later date.