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Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

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Flakbait

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Minuteman
Jul 12, 2010
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#1
I am still fairly new to reloading (almost 2 years). I am loading a Rem 700 SPS Tactical .308 1/12 twist with 168 SMK in used Federal cases from fired FGMM.

Currently, I am able to produce sub MOA ammunition with Varget. I plan to used up my Federal brass supply (4-5 reloads is when the primer pockets grow too large seems to be the expectation) and switch over to Winchester cases for better longevity of brass.

What is the advantage of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die in the controlling of sizing of the neck with adjustable bushings?

Do you get better accuracy through less manipulation of the case neck? I'm not a benchrest shooter...just want to learn how to shoot beyond 300 yards at steel and paper. I don't care for the time investment of turning necks.

Or just brass longevity? I don't plan to anneal (afraid of open flames). Does fine tuning the neck to minimize manipulation lead to longer lasting cases (less split necks)?

I need another excuse to buy more Redding dies but I want to know the benefit of this die upgrade. I am currently using the standard Redding Full Length dies and bump the shoulder back .002 using the competition shellholders.
 
#2
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

Short answer is hopefully longer brass life because you are working the necks less.

Normal die squeezes the neck smaller than it needs to be then expands it to the proper size with the expander of the die. "S" dies allow you to select the correct bushing that will work for your brass and not require an expander.

Since you're only working the brass once instead of twice it should last longer.
 
#4
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: B y r o n</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Normal die squeezes the neck smaller than it needs to be then expands it to the proper size with the expander of the die. "S" dies allow you to select the correct bushing that will work for your brass and not require an expander.

Since you're only working the brass once instead of twice it should last longer. </div></div>

What Byron said. Even after the neck is squeezed down by the die and stretched back out by the expander, the neck is still typically way smaller than necessary. Your bullet ends up acting like another expander ball because it has to stretch the neck even further during the seating process. You want your neck to stretch a little when the bullet is seated (around .002 for a bolt gun), but a typical standard sizing die makes the bullet do much more stretching than this.

With a bushing die, you don't really need an expander ball at all. You squeeze the neck to the desired size (and no further) in one step. And that's it. Much less reshaping of the neck gives a longer case life.

The bushing die also lets you fine tune your 'neck tension'. For a bolt gun, a neck that is .002 smaller than the bullet before seating will hold the bullet securely. For semi-auto ammo, you usually want the neck to have a little firmer grip on the bullet so it won't move around when the round is cycled through the action, say .004 smaller. With standard dies, you can't make this adjustment. You're stuck with whatever size the die gives you, and typically that size is far smaller than you need.

The bushing die also lets you adjust for different brands of brass. Some .308 brass may have neck walls that are .010 thick, and other brands may have walls of .016. That's a big difference and a standard die will treat them both the same.

And the neck is not the only part of the case that gets work-hardened by unnecessary sizing. That's what Mallard was getting at when he suggested s neck sizing die.
 
#5
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

Okay, then I have a question. I am about to buy S series dies from Redding to reload for a .338 LM and I will be using Lapua Brass. So what bushings should I start with? I understand that you want to go with .002 smaller than a loaded round but what size bushings should I order as a starting point? I dont have any loaded ammunition so where is my starting point? Thanks. \
 
#6
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

I'm in the same boat as you at the moment. I am BRAND new to reloading, read heaps but havent actually done it yet. About to fork out and cry once so I want the best possible die sets. These seem to be bee's knees without getting custom dies.
I've measured my cases loaded and unloaded, at the top of the neck and at the bottom of the neck.
I'm shooting for 30-06 and currently my loaded cases measure 0.333-0.334" at the top of the neck
at the bottom of the neck they are 0.338-0.340"
Having read what's been said above I assume I should be using that top of the neck diameter as its what's "holding" the bullet in place.
So if I go 0.002" less of the smallest average I should aim for a bushing size of 0.331" ?
My unloaded neck diameter at the top of the neck is 0.340-0.344" . Is an expansion of 0.013" okay or should I try to aim for the upper reading of 0.340-0.002" being 0.338" bushing?
Thanks and sorry if i'm hijacking...
 
#7
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

I ended up with a handful of bushings. Let's say you wanted the I.D. (inside diameter) of your neck to be .306 so you could have .002 of neck tension. Since your die sizes the outside only, the question is what size would the O.D. of your neck have to be in order to get the desired I.D. That answer will depend on the thickness of your neck walls, and that will vary from brand to brand. Just a few examples from my .308 brass on hand:

Lapua - .016
LC - .016 (this will vary from lot to lot)
FC - .015
Win. - .0135
Black Hills Match - .0125
(These are average measurements. You will get some case to case variations depending on the brand, with Lapua being the most consistent and LC being the least consistent)

As you can see, you will probably need several bushings depending on how many brands of brass you are using. You can get a ball park idea of wall thickness with dial calipers, but to get an exact reading you need a ball micrometer like the one shown below. If you are measuring the O.D. of a loaded round, you can get by with a set of calipers because the wall thicknesses are part of that total measurement.

Ball Micrometer
80620485.jpg


Using FC with a wall thickness of .015 as an example, to get an I.D. of .306 you'd need an O.D. of .306 + .015 + .015 = .336 (the target I.D. plus the thickness of both walls). Next you have to consider spring-back. If you used a bushing size of .336, the brass will rebound a little bit when it comes out of the die. Instead of staying at .336, it would expand back out to .337 or .338, depending on how new the brass is (newer brass rebounds more than older brass). If it rebounds to .338, you basically end up with no neck tension at all. So you would need a bushing of .334 or .335 to end up with an O.D. of .336.

When you see the common advice to measure the diameter of a loaded neck and subtract .002, that advice gives you the target O.D. but it neglects to account for the spring-back. Your bushing needs to be a tad smaller, .001 or .002 smaller.

As you can see, this can get tedious, especially when you're moving from brand to brand or old lot to newer lot. For a brand new reloader, it can get so complex that it gets overwhelming. And because spring-back can and will vary, it can get very frustrating when you're trying to be exact. It becomes easier with practice, and after a while I got to where the difference between .004 and .002 of neck tension was sometimes not worth the extra effort. It saves on excess working of the neck but it doesn't make a measurable difference in accuracy. At least not to me. And the 'excess working' of the neck at this level is nothing compared to what you get with a standard die.

One other thing - most new factory brass in my experience doesn't need neck sizing to reduce the diameter (not that it may not need sizing just to remove dings or bring the case body into uniform specs). New necks are usually smaller than you need and I usually run an expansion mandrel into them just to get them big enough to accept a bullet without needing brute force during seating.

Deepsouth, I'm guessing the difference in diameters you're getting from the top to bottom of your loaded necks is due to the fact that many sizers squeeze the top 3/4 or so of the neck more than they do the bottom portion. This is even true of most bushings.

 
#8
#9
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

I watched that first video. I think he gets a little carried away with the 'too much grip' comments. I guarantee you that a standard sizing die will give you way more than .002. In fact, semi-auto loads are often recommended to have around .004, and a standard die will give you far more than that. To test this, just measure the O.D. of a neck that has been sized in a standard die and then compare that with the dimensions we've been talking about here. It's not that the makers of standard dies don't care about too much neck tension, it's that they don't know how thick your neck walls will be or what kind of gun you'll be loading for, so they have to make the dies with enough squeeze-down to suit the most extreme situation. From a safety standpoint, it's much better to overwork the brass by having too much neck tension than it is to have bullets being shoved back into the case when the round is cycled through a semi-auto. That can blow up the gun. I have never heard of dangerous pressures being the result of too much neck tension. The brass simply isn't strong enough to grab and hold a bullet that tightly. By contrast, taking a max load at normal OALs and then stretching it out till the bullet is jammed in the lands - that can develop dangerous pressures.

Spring back is a real bitch when it comes to the calculations. I had been reloading for maybe 25 years when I first tried the bushing dies, so I pretty much knew what I was doing. I did all my calculations and had it down pat - at least till I put the first case through the die. I was using brand new brass and my results were off by around .003. I tried several bushings and took more measurements but I could never get what I expected to get. I was about to chunk my fancy new dies out the window. Finally I figured out that the .001 number I'd always heard about spring back was just a ball park guess.

New brass has been annealed at the factory and has a max amount of spring to it. Every time it gets fired and resized, it loses a little bit of springiness. At some point, it gets so work-hardened that the spring is about gone and it needs to be annealed or thrown out. This is the point when you start getting cracks and splits and the accuracy falls off. Depending on what brand of brass, how it has been treated, and who you ask, this can happen anywhere between 4 and 8 firings, generally speaking. I've found that the bushing I need to use will change over the life of the cases, and this loss of springiness is the reason. The .001 rule of thumb for spring-back is about what you get when your case is half-way through its useful life. And that is just my ball park estimation.

This is why I said I ended up with a handful of bushings. Between the variance in spring-back and the difference in case wall thicknesses, you won't find one bushing that will give you exactly what you want in every situation. Some dies (like Forster's neck-size and shoulder-bump sets) come with a basic set of 3 bushings. They put three sizes in the set because they know this isn't a 'one size fits all' deal.

I keep notes on each lot of brass - how many firings, what bushing I used last time and what size it produced, etc. Even at that, it's not uncommon for me to try a couple different bushings every time I sit down to resize a lot.
 
#10
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

Wow, that's a lot of discussion about figuring out which bushing to use/obtain. All in the name of getting most uses out of your brass cases as I don't hear lots of discussion about increasing accuracy through less neck tension.

I figure someone would have figured this stuff out by now and the methodology to determine the correct bushing size would be indisputable...now the Redding rep in the video is telling everyone to use a different bushing size that what is published in their standard catalog. I guess I would follow the Redding Rep since they are the makers of the dies.

I appreciate everyone giving their input. Areas like bushing size is why I think reloading is very fun. Technical and totally obtuse to most people, but kind of intriguing to me..
 
#11
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flakbait</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, that's a lot of discussion about figuring out which bushing to use/obtain. All in the name of getting most uses out of your brass cases as I don't hear lots of discussion about increasing accuracy through less neck tension.

I figure someone would have figured this stuff out by now and the methodology to determine the correct bushing size would be indisputable...now the Redding rep in the video is telling everyone to use a different bushing size that what is published in their standard catalog. I guess I would follow the Redding Rep since they are the makers of the dies.

I appreciate everyone giving their input. Areas like bushing size is why I think reloading is very fun. Technical and totally obtuse to most people, but kind of intriguing to me.. </div></div>

Brands and lots of brass have different thicknesses so there is no one size bushing to give you the right numbers on every piece of brass. You must measure the necks and add the to projectile diameter then go 1, 2, or 3 thou under and give it a try or just measure loaded round diameter. Also neck tension is in the name of accuracy not just brass life esp when its inconsistent.
 
#12
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: b2!!!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, then I have a question. I am about to buy S series dies from Redding to reload for a .338 LM and I will be using Lapua Brass. So what bushings should I start with? I understand that you want to go with .002 smaller than a loaded round but what size bushings should I order as a starting point? I dont have any loaded ammunition so where is my starting point? Thanks. \
</div></div>

With Lapua brass if you want.002 neck tension get a .366 if you want .003 get a .365
 
#13
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

ordered a bushing 0.001 smaller and comp set from the redding group buy ( 40% off!) and will post how it goes. Next order i'll get a few more bushings and experiment a bit more to see if it makes a difference or not.
The more I learn about reloading the more I find that I don't know...
 
#14
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

What OldTex said. Plus this: IMO the major reason to use a neck bushing die is concentricity of the loaded rounds. Too much neck tension will result in some / many bullets seated out-of-round. You can see this easily: roll your loaded rounds towards you on a desk or other very reliably flat surface. Watch the tip of the bullet; if it wiggles, it is out-of-round (not straight) AND IT WILL ENTER THE BORE THIS WAY. You can expect results accordingly. You can buy an expensive tool to do this, but I haven't bothered. I am a Pennsylvania Dutchman and we are notoriously cheap.

This problem plagued me all through my highpower days; I would sort loaded rounds and shoot the wigglers as foulers or at shorter ranges, saving the straight ones for 600yards. I never understood what was going on and failed to investigate thoroughly (Al Gore hadn't yet invented the Internet...).

I am now able to produce large quantities of extremely high quality ammunition, and my shooting shows it. The Redding bushing type dies are worth the money.

I am using a .337 bushing for LCMatch brass; the mouths are so thin on my Winchester brass that I can load in regular dies and achieve correct neck tension. Lapua for me requires at least a .338 neck bushing.

The neck tension discussion in the posts above is IMO correct as it relates to bolt versus semi-auto. Semis obviously slam the loaded round around a lot and so require more neck tension to hold the bullet firmly in place.
 
#15
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

How concentric is the bullet while entering the lands, doesn't seem to be a big issue. The only way that bullet is getting down the barrel immediately after the leade is passed is the same way every single time, which is exactly concentric with the barrel for the complete length of the barrel. It won't fit any other way. Especially if that bullet tip (using the desk rolling experiment above) varies by only a (few) degrees or so. The top portion of the bullet will get guided into via the leade area into the lands perfectly, far as I can imagine it.

I do see how neck tension could seriously vary accuracy by making MV's vary excessively. I am doing some experiments on that now. My latest batch of Lapua 338LM brass (which is like a year or two old) unfired that I just reloaded used noticeably more seating force on my Redding press than did my multi-fired brass. It will be interesting to chron for any differences between 3x-5x used 338LM brass and brand new (ran it thru neck bushing resizer, and carbide ball) brass with everything else the same (primer, powder, bullet, etc...).
 
#16
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

I was just reading a shooting mag. article about brass life. He tested 6 different brands of brass. When the srooting was all done(over a half year) the Remington and Lapua were the only two to last through 20 firings with all 20 rounds. I think the Black Hills was the first to have a falure. My shooting buddy has fired his 50 Lapua 308 brass 8 times so far and it still looks like new. Primer pocket still tight.
 
#17
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

after I fire BHA match ammo, I throw away the brass. Won't touch it.

Winchester brass seems to be great for reloading, esp when you weigh and sort the cases. The necks are annealed on Win brass, and not on Fed Match brass. For what it's worth. I am reloading both and so far only one Fed seems to have lost it's pocket primer tightness. None of the Win's have been affected.
 
#18
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

My Redding FL "S" die gathers dust.
MY RCBS FL die gathers dust.

I like a Forster FL die with the neck lapped out to my specification at the factory.
I like a Lee collet neck die with the collet, collar, and mandrel polished on my lathe.

For years and thousands of rounds I used a Redding FL "S" die.
Then I did a test with populations of brass dedicated to a sizer die, and all the brass being cycled through the same single shot accurate rifle.

The results shocked me.
The Redding FL "S" die looked the best and cost the most, but performed the poorest.

The Redding die makes brass grow the most and bends the neck the most.

That ugly cheap Lee collet die will make the most accurate ammo and make the brass last the longest. At way over SAAMI pressure I can get over 15 firings and no annealing.

What does it all mean?
Buy every die, every brand, and do a test.
Give each die 25 pieces of brass, and shoot it all over and over.
Which ammo is the most accurate and concentric?
Which brass is lasting the longest?
 
#19
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

One note about tools. I pictured a ball micrometer up above made by Sinclair that cost about $200. Ball micrometers are made by many companies and are designed for measuring the wall thickness in cases (or any tubular goods).

There is another cheaper tool that will do the same thing, although I've never tried it. I think I saw it being used in one of the videos linked above. Sinclair sells the Insize digital thickness gauge for about $50 (item #52-9900). I'm not saying it's as accurate as the ball micrometers, but it doesn't really have to be for these purposes.
 
#21
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

The FL type S sizing die allows you to neck or Full Length size. Better choice than owning the neck die.

Still need to polish the sizing ball, unless you don't use the expansion ball on your decap rod.

Sinclair sells the Skip's Die Spacer set. Good accessory to have. Setup your die with spacers when want only to neck-size, use w/o when want to FL size.


Also worth having a set of Redding Competition shellholders in your loading quiver.
 
#22
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

I sized two Winchester once fired .308 cases with my standard Redding FL sizing die and produced two cases with necks that measured .330.

I then loaded them with Nosler Custom Competition 168 match bullets (cheaper and not too different from 168 SMK) and the measured necks were .332.

The stand FL sizing die is already sizing the neck of the brass to .002 less than the loaded cartridge. What advantage would there be to get a new Type S FL sizing die and a bushing for .331?

I already have the competition shellholders and bump the shoulders to .001 to .002 with each FL sizing.

Winchester cases are really thin.

Am I chasing that last minute bit of theoretical accuracy and brass longevity?

 
#23
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

cali tz,

Are you saying the bore straightens the bullet? "It won't fit any other way." A piece of (soft) copper and lead jammed into a steel hole at 60,000 psi will only fit one way? I think at 60,000 psi I could probably shove that bullet down the bore any way I wanted to if I could hold the pressure constant and weren't relying on the propellant-driven pulse. Lead and copper deform (engrave to the rifling) at much less than 60,000 psi.

There's a fairly large amount of published data on the importance of the straightness of loaded rounds. Here's one example: http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

I do not use the expander ball on my Sinclair S full length dies, and I use a three-die set otherwise.
 
#24
Re: Advantages of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die?

Flakbait, sounds like you hit a homerun with your combo of die and brass. My old standard sizing dies (RBCS Comp) produced much smaller necks. You might get some variation with older/newer brass, but probably no more an a thou one way or the other.

But if you used another brand of brass, you'll have a much tighter squeeze for your bullets. Change over to LC and your 'grip' will go from .002 to .012, or something in that neighborhood.
 
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