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Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

lordt313

lordt313

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
May 27, 2007
90
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41
Louisville. KY
Hello, I am what I think to be a fairly proficient shooter, I have never had any formal training or instruction, everything I know of shooting has come from videos, books, and Outdoor channel. A couple of years ago I shot out to 700 yds with a friend who was a competative LR shooter, with is instruction I was semi-accurate. I want to learn to shoot at that distance and have very little knowledge of what I am lacking as far as fundementals. My question is this: where could I find training/instruction on the basics of shooting as I am sure I have some pretty bad habits given my self-taught method? Addtionally, would you more experienced shooters consider this a vital prerequisite to learning LR shooting?

Thanks,
Taylor
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Correct fundamentals are as important to LR shooting as they are to any other kind of shooting - and probably more so because your errors are magnified at longer distances. Maybe check out Lowlight's OnLine training, then go take a basic course from a reputable outfit. I've been doing this for a while and I'm still taking - and learning from - basic courses.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Frank, you owe me a finder's fee.
laugh.gif
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

You should also be aware that no amount of books or online courses will make you a proficient rifleman. The courses and books are merely tool to teach principle. You can only acquire accuracy by implementing the fundamentals physically when you are actually at the range. Most of good accuracy comes from muscle memory and repetition(you must remain constant!)I would find someone who can watch your body position and coach you at the range. Let me know if you have any questions.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Ronin, do you think I should seek professional instruction? What I mean is, I am totally unaware of factors like breathing, trigger control, correct postion etc., any reccomendations?
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

As far as seeking professional help,Do you have the funds? If so then great, but do you think it is worth paying for something that you can acquire if you apply yourself.You are obviously aware that the things like breathing etc. are important because you listed them. You just need to learn the basic principles of shooting,strictly apply the fundamentals,figure out what your weak points are and then fine tune them. There are tell tale signs of what mistakes you are making. The proof will be found on the target. You will notice trends in your impacts. (EX: If you are breathing while firing, then the rounds will be placed radically in an up and down patern,etc.)You can use these trends to fix the problem, but this must be done at shorter ranges to cancel as many variables as possible,such as (wind,humidity,etc.)If you have any questions, I will be glad to help
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

I think the online training will be a good point of information.

Ronin, I have a question since you've offered your help. How would I go about hitting a man sized target at 800 yards from the prone position in a 10mph crosswind from the 3 O'clock direction?
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

lordt313
There is a section in this area called advanced marksmanship
in it is a sticky called fundamentals of marksmanship. It is worth reading.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Read, Read and then read some more on the fundamentals of LR shooting. The rest is to spend as much time and money sending bullets down range to get better.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

thanks for the recommendation crump, you were right that was good info!
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lordt313</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello, I am what I think to be a fairly proficient shooter, I have never had any formal training or instruction, everything I know of shooting has come from videos, books, and Outdoor channel. A couple of years ago I shot out to 700 yds with a friend who was a competative LR shooter, with is instruction I was semi-accurate. I want to learn to shoot at that distance and have very little knowledge of what I am lacking as far as fundementals. My question is this: where could I find training/instruction on the basics of shooting as I am sure I have some pretty bad habits given my self-taught method? Addtionally, would you more experienced shooters consider this a vital prerequisite to learning LR shooting?

Thanks,
Taylor</div></div>

I think we've spoken. At any rate, I've got a one-on-one day course which, I'm certain, will get you off to a good start, as it reveals everything known to be important to good shooting. PM me if you're interested, or stop by Shooter's Supply for a brochure.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Burkes, sorry for my late response, but I had some personal issues to attend to. In response to your question, For a basic solution,I would consider the sighting device that you are utilizing (MOA adjustments)and make the corresponding wind call to place your shot further to the right if the wind is coming from 3 o'clock. The previous all depends on the type and tajectory of your round type. A .223 is efected more by the wind at 800 yards than a .300 Win Mag. Can you be more specific?
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Taylor,
First let me say i'm not affiliated with Rifles Only nor do I get anything in return from them. What you need IMO is to take a formal basic class so someone can show you the proper fundamentals. From there everything you read will make more sense. Additionally it will teach you the right way to practice at home and hopefully minimize your bad habit development. Rifles Only can do that for you. I assure you, if you have the ability to learn, you will there.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

1-Call Lisa at Rifles Only and get slot for PR1.
2-Go to RO.
3-Practice what you learned.
4-Call Lisa at Rifles Only and get slot for PR2.
5-Go to RO.
6-Practice what you learned.
7-Augment your proper education with reading and interaction with shooters who know more than you.
8-Reload ammo and maintain skill set.
9-Practice Dry Fire.
10-REPEAT 1-10.

Questions?
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the online training will be a good point of information.

Ronin, I have a question since you've offered your help. How would I go about hitting a man sized target at 800 yards from the prone position in a 10mph crosswind from the 3 O'clock direction? </div></div>


dope it....dial it...

wait for the mirage to come straight up & fire.....lol
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the online training will be a good point of information.

Ronin, I have a question since you've offered your help. How would I go about hitting a man sized target at 800 yards from the prone position in a 10mph crosswind from the 3 O'clock direction?</div></div>

Let's give Ronin a hand; static target, no slope, assuming you're shooting something that uses a wind constant of 10, you'd need to counter with about 8 MOA of adjustment right, that's a favor which converts to a little bit more than 5 feet.

Here's my question, the same target just began moving toward 9 o'clock at about 3 mph, in addition, you've just discovered what you thought was a horizontal shot is actually a 22 degree upward slope from shooter to target. Boy, am I glad I just shoot in NRA LR competitons. Wait, now the target is moving forward at about a 45 degree angle to the shooter's position, and the wind appears to no longer prevail, but is now boiling, no wait, it's now blowing at about 10 mph from 9 to 3.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

No worries Ronin, I'm the late responder this time.

Ok, I'm shooting a .308 with factory match ammo, scope adjusts in Mil/Mil. I got my dope when it was 90 degrees outside and 90% humidity, now it's 40 degrees and 20% humidity.

At what range does humidity come into play?

Your profile says you are range instructor. Would you mind sharing where you do your instructing and what kind of shooting background you come from? Just curious.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Humidity will not really affect the rounnd, it's negligible
Round weight will also have an impact on how much correction you have to apply. the havier the rnd the better it holds up to wind.

To get an idea contact the manufacturer of the ammo or go online to some ballistic calculator and get a ballistic table for your ammo. That will give you an idea of what to dial in.
Be advised though, that's just a ballpark table. All rifles shoot differently and you should make your own dope card by going to he range and actually shooting targets from 100 to 1000 and writing it down.

R.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Humidity will not really affect the rounnd, it's negligible</div></div>

Can you elaborate on this please...
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

I think the point is being missed.
You can learn academic theory online and in books, depending heavily on the source, but you cannot beat real world experience, at a top notch school.
Think of it as learning Spanish through Telemundo, or Rosetta Stone, on the way to Spain...
Just a thought...
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

I should specify that my occupation was Combat Marksmanship Instructor for the USMC (MTU)out of 29 Palms. Among my many other jobs in the Corps. I have also run rigorous tactical shooting courses at battalion level for deployment workups. I understand that you are verifying my legitimacy,but I will say that I am not here to post my Resume and if you have any more questions about my background, I'll be glad to answer them by PM. As for your questions, I believe the level of your personal knowledge on shooting displayed by your post proves that you probably already know how to make a wind call at 800, if so, then I am not here to play games.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Yes Wil.
The effect of humidity is negligible for MOST types of shooting. Definitely not within 1000 yards.

RG2/7
Yeah it is just the humidity thing that got Tony wondering about the things you were writing. NO biggie.

Thank you for your service and keep at it!
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Humidity will not really affect the rounnd, it's negligible</div></div>

Can you elaborate on this please... </div></div>

here is the best way I know to explain it:

If I take my ATRAG software or really any ballistic software and I put these variables in:

175gr 308
MV 2600
Temp 70
Baro 29.92
and Humidity 5%

I get a come up of 39.3MOA for a 1000 yard shot.

If I take that same information and change the Humidity to 75% I get 39.2MOA, so its just under a quarter MOA at 1000 yards, of less dope necessary... pretty small in the scheme of things.

If I change the bullet to a 250gr 338LM with the same data, the change from 5% humidity to 90% is .1MOA. With a 300WM, same thing, .1 MOA of change.

If you are shooting something past 1200 you have to figure it in, but inside 1000 yards with a 308, this stuff is pretty small, and not worth filling your head with.

The problem is many of the old books, USMC, Army, etc, wrongly had humidity increasing drag on the bullet when it is the opposite, as well they were giving "rule of thumb" information that was wrong for then and really wrong now, but it keeps getting reprinted.

At a 1000 yards, its about a .25MOA, maybe a tick under, but still what most would consider very small as no one is holding a quarter MOA of accuracy at that distance.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Humidity will not really affect the rounnd, it's negligible</div></div>

Can you elaborate on this please... </div></div>

here is the best way I know to explain it:

If I take my ATRAG software or really any ballistic software and I put these variables in:

175gr 308
MV 2600
Temp 70
Baro 29.92
and Humidity 5%

I get a come up of 39.3MOA for a 1000 yard shot.

If I take that same information and change the Humidity to 75% I get 39.2MOA, so its just under a quarter MOA at 1000 yards, of less dope necessary... pretty small in the scheme of things.

If I change the bullet to a 250gr 338LM with the same data, the change from 5% humidity to 90% is .1MOA. With a 300WM, same thing, .1 MOA of change.

If you are shooting something past 1200 you have to figure it in, but inside 1000 yards with a 308, this stuff is pretty small, and not worth filling your head with.

The problem is many of the old books, USMC, Army, etc, wrongly had humidity increasing drag on the bullet when it is the opposite, as well they were giving "rule of thumb" information that was wrong for then and really wrong now, but it keeps getting reprinted.

At a 1000 yards, its about a .25MOA, maybe a tick under, but still what most would consider very small as no one is holding a quarter MOA of accuracy at that distance. </div></div>

rgr all

-Wil
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

sorry if there was a misunderstanding,but the wind and humidity variable was listed in my response to lordt313 not Tony. lordt313 was asking about LR shooting, and humidity becomes a variable when you get past a grand. I had no idea how far lordt313 was going to shoot and was just advising him that he can more accuratley identify his mistakes at a shorter range with less variables.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

I ALWAYS blame myself. It sure isn't the fucking rifle
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ALWAYS blame myself. It sure isn't the fucking rifle </div></div>

Unless your name is Jack, then it's the scope and rifle!!!!
laugh.gif


R.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

Taylor, in answer to your original question. Sterling Shooter is in your neck of the woods and is a HIgh Master in Long Range Shooting. You will be hard pressed to find a better way to learn than a day on the range with him.

There are other places to go but dollar for dollar your best served to use the local High Master who is also an instructor.

 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

yeah, I bought a brand new Nightforce from Charles yesterday, cant wait to take his course this summer, until then I am reading posts on here everyday to learn better fundamentals, the online training from lowlight and the folks at rifles only is also going to be a great academic resource for me. Thanks to all who have given some insight on this topic.
-Taylor
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ALWAYS blame myself. It sure isn't the fucking rifle </div></div>

Unless your name is Jack, then it's the scope and rifle!!!!
laugh.gif


R. </div></div>



WAIT a minute! How did I get dragged into this? It REALLY WASN'T ME!!!!!!!
smile.gif
smile.gif
smile.gif


Jack
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

I learned by getting involved in NRA Highpower National Match competition. Accepting that this is not precision LR shooting per se, the value comes from working the pits, and discussing the subject(s) with your fellow shooters. You learn from them all, newbies to Distinguished Experts. Moving on from that to F Class, you should get a pretty good rounding in the pertinent subjects.

The key point to understand is that the process is continuous and open ended. Nobody is immune to the need for further coaching and improvement. If I actually ever got to the point where I truly had nothing further to learn, it would likely break my heart; because the hunger for personal knowledge and improvement is the bait that draws me onward.

Greg
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The key point to understand is that the process is continuous and open ended. Nobody is immune to the need for further coaching and improvement.
Greg </div></div>

Nothing could be further from the truth.
And back to his question, the coaching is paramount. I don’t care how much dedication, commitment, or intelligence one has, at one point or another people need coaching to truly achieve maximum peak. Pro athletes are a great example. Most are amazing athletes by themselves, but would never have reached that point without formal instruction and coaching. In this arena, weather for sport or otherwise, having the opportunity to get that guidance in the beginning is very important IMO. it will allow you to learn the correct way from the start and not have to unlearn and re-learn in the future, which is much harder to do physiologically speaking.

smile.gif

R.
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

i would NEVER accept advise much less paid training from a guy that insists 600 plus yard longrange training can be done at 100 yards with reduced size targets. now matter how many credentials he tries to wear on his sleve!
SEEK COMPETENT INSTRUCTION
from what you said you have a grasp of basic shooting. and yes there will be bad habibits to break. this is why even tiger woods has an instructor working with him. habits sneak in from time to time.
when qualifieing a school, ask these questions,
if seeking "sniper" training, are there any military sloted and trained instructors teaching at this school?
if seeking "swat/tactical" trining, are there any sloted and trained swat officers teaching at this school?
if the answer is no,move on in a hurry!
unless you feel comfortable learning skydiving from a scuba instructor.
SEEK COMPETENT INSTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i would NEVER accept advise much less paid training from a guy that insists 600 plus yard longrange training can be done at 100 yards with reduced size targets. now matter how many credentials he tries to wear on his sleve!
SEEK COMPETENT INSTRUCTION
from what you said you have a grasp of basic shooting. and yes there will be bad habibits to break. this is why even tiger woods has an instructor working with him. habits sneak in from time to time.
when qualifieing a school, ask these questions,
if seeking "sniper" training, are there any military sloted and trained instructors teaching at this school?
if seeking "swat/tactical" trining, are there any sloted and trained swat officers teaching at this school?
if the answer is no,move on in a hurry!
unless you feel comfortable learning skydiving from a scuba instructor.
SEEK COMPETENT INSTRUCTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div></div>

All shooting is the same, LR is just more demanding. It's an angular thing. BTW, you're not in a position to know what is or is not competent. Your marksmanship excursions are very limited. In other words you don't know what you're talking about; and, to the experienced here, you're making yourself appear ignorant.

 
Re: Advice on how to learn LR precision shooting

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman762</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hey man, i never claimed all that bullshit you have in your signature, much less suggest longrange training can be done at 100 yards. and also, how would you know how limited my excursions are? and how limited my ability is? here is another example of you talking out of the wrong sphincter. i would imagine someone like yourself would consider yourself superior to military trained marksman. yep, these guys have no trigger time.
when looking into charles ludwig, i keep hearing the terms nra blockhead and "he's a tool".
like i said, either you are ignorant or you are trying to dupe the guy into paying you for something you know nothing about. and now you are telling someone you know nothing of, how inexperienced he is. ha ha ha you had better stay in your fantasy, because it's clear you know nothin of reality!
i even took this scenario to another forum. all pretty much agreed, anyone sellin trainin like this is a dumb ass!
maybe you should get back to bench rest or something like that.
this race track is no place for a school bus driver.
the rest of us can look on the bright side, when this range goes two way, it'll be the dumb asses that will get whacked right out of the gate.
good luck.
have you apologized to that poor sap you tried to sell your long reange training to? i suspect you have integrity issues as well.</div></div>

Of course you can't claim anything because you have nothing to claim.

Stating that my credentials are "bullshit" further undermines your senseless arguments.

I know you know nothing about good shooting, as your comments reveal it.

Your arguments are weak, leading you to attack me personally, as well as distort my positions and the content of a particular course of instruction I offer.

The only thing anyone knows about your shooting experience is what you've alluded to, which is what, one LR training event? This makes you an authority on what is and is not good training?

It appears that your singular training experience only revealed to you that you didn't know the first two things about good shooting. How do you know that such concepts are exclusive to LR?

BTW, what exactly was revealed to you in your LR training that makes you think it was an esoteric experience; and, how would you know what you learned was an exclusive experience, having no other training to make contrasts and comparisons with?

Why not troll someplace else, or just reveal the true purpose of your posts.
 
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