AICS and wrist pain?

[SpookyPistolero]

I mounted my new (to me) aics 2.0 this weekend and took it for a spin yesterday. I put 110 rounds through it (308 Remington). I I was prone for 85% of it. Today the wrist on my strong hand is killing me. I have haven't used a stock with a thumb hole before this. I was making conscious effort to pull the stock back, not not try to hold it in place (a situation situation where I'd be more understanding of wrist pain).

Is this common? Am I screwing something up fundamentally? Does a full pistol grip like like the Viper skin alleviate this at all?

I have searched searched but didn't find an answer to this.

 

[Trigger Monkey]

It just could be something with your body mechanics, I can't stand the AR-15 grip angle on a chassis while some seem to do just fine with it. Try letting the thumb from your firing hand ride the side of the chassis instead of going through the thumbhole. You could also give Viper Skins a try but try that first. Good luck.

 

[SWRichmond]

Check your length of pull. If it is too short then your strong (shooting) hand wrist will be bent backwards.

 

[Matno]

I'm no shooting expert, but I am a hand surgeon, and the most likely problem is allowing the recoil to torque the wrist. Doesn't matter which way, if the wrist is bent and absorbing recoil at the same time, after a few rounds, it's probably going to hurt. If you have a more vertical grip, that's probably going to align your wrist a little more naturally (in spite of what the Glock fans will tell you). A standard stock with a steep angle doesn't transmit force quite as directly because your hand is less in line with the recoil. A thumbhole stock may put you in between those two where you're absorbing recoil in line with the bore, but not necessarily at an ideal wrist angle. (I'm talking about radial ulnar deviation). In addition, avoiding flexion or extension will reduce torque as well. (Length of pull can affect that as mentioned above).

 

[Donr13]

When I shoot on my aics I keep my thumb laying on the side rather than through the thumbhole. Seems to work for me with no pain.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Thanks very much for all the info. I have checked length of pull and it seems to be right on. (13.75") I will try putting my thumb on the side, but it's a bit irritating to agonize of chassis system selection, save up for it, and then not be able to use the thumb hole.

Is the grip angle the Viper skins the same as the standard skins?

Considering just ditching it and saving for a Jae or something. This is disenchanting.

 

[strike33]

I switched from the thumbhole to the pistol grip skins and it feels much better. Still not a fan of the ergos but it was an improvement

 

[Donr13]

I have heard it's hit or miss on the the thumbhole stocks, sometimes just looking good doesn't mean it's going to be a great fit for YOU. It's too bad you were not as pleased with it. It's one of my favorite stocks.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Not sure if I even want to sink more money into this or not. I love the overall feel of this thing until I pull the trigger, apparently. I shot worse with it and I'm not sure I didn't have a harder time managing recoil (bizarrely steep learning curve for me on this one it seems).

I picked this up to help rule out some gear as a hindrance to my improvement but it seems to be muddying the waters. Grr...

 

[strike33]

Not sure if I even want to sink more money into this or not. I love the overall feel of this thing until I pull the trigger, apparently. I shot worse with it and I'm not sure I didn't have a harder time managing recoil (bizarrely steep learning curve for me on this one it seems).

I picked this up to help rule out some gear as a hindrance to my improvement but it seems to be muddying the waters. Grr...

I'd be willing to loan you my pistol grip skins if you want to give them a try. They are the AI skins, The Viper skins for the new AICS are supposed to be out this month.
I paid 110 for the skins from MileHigh. It was well worth it

 

[SpookyPistolero]

That is very kind of you! I may just order a set and see what happens. If it still hurts, I'll just sell the whole setup. (my WTB thread has not had a bite yet). Not sure what stock to turn to if that fails?

 

[malsa82]

I also float my thumb and have no issues (I think this helps you get a perfect 90* angle with your trigger finger). I agree that it sounds like your length of pull is too short and you're bending your wrist too much. I personally don't think the PG skins will help this. The AI spacer set allows you to (somewhat) fine tune your length of pull and is WAY cheaper than getting a whole new set of skins. I would give those a try first. I'm 6'3" and I needed to add about 10mm to my length of pull to be comfortable.

Accuracy International Accessories

 

[50APIT]

You can pick up a set of Viper Skins from Mile High for $75 shipped: Victor Company: Viper Skins - 2.0 Folding - Short Action - AICS - Mile High Shooting Accessories
You could probably sell your thumb hole skins here to cover most of the cost.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

That's a good price on the skins, I'll definitely check check them out. And some spacers. Is a quarter inch or so of LOP enough to cause this?

 

[SWRichmond]

There's a lot of geometry happening here.

Note: I believe I am doing this differently than most, so YMMV.

When I am on my rifle, my wrist is not straight, it is bent back a bit. This is the case whether I am on an AICS or a "conventional" rifle stock. My LOP is at 14.5"; I am a bit under 6' but have long arms. Over time I have developed a technique for shot release which works for me, and it is based in part on learning that too much "grip" is bad; it seems if I have my thumb wrapped around the stock there is too much opportunity for recoil to push the rifle into my hand and push shots horizontally, so my hand is placed thus: thumb through the hole but not wrapped; third and fourth fingers cupped firmly and pulling straight back into my shoulder; cheekpiece adjusted up to where I can lay my cheek on it with a large amount of weight and my face falls naturally into line with the scope, pushing the rifle down into the bags (bless you Nancy Tomkins for your book; I can shove a finger all the way through underneath the cheekpiece between it and the stock, and I don't see anyone else with this adjusted in this manner); when I squeeze the trigger there is no thumb tension at all, I am squeezing it with my index finger into the thumb's carpo-metacarpal joint (Thumb Joint Replacement | eorthopod.com). I use firm but not moose pressure with my cupped hand straight back into my shoulder. No more horizontal flyers.

One other thing I noticed: where the AICS places my hand is a bit close to the trigger for me, and if I am not mindful of this I will bend my wrist further back in order to move my index finger a bit further away from the trigger. I have solved this problem by installing the Timney Tactical Trigger (Tactical Replacement Trigger) which allows me to move that sucker away from my hand and put it exactly where I want it. This was a bigger help than you can imagine.

 

[BookHound]

I'm no shooting expert, but I am a hand surgeon, and the most likely problem is allowing the recoil to torque the wrist. Doesn't matter which way, if the wrist is bent and absorbing recoil at the same time, after a few rounds, it's probably going to hurt. If you have a more vertical grip, that's probably going to align your wrist a little more naturally (in spite of what the Glock fans will tell you). A standard stock with a steep angle doesn't transmit force quite as directly because your hand is less in line with the recoil. A thumbhole stock may put you in between those two where you're absorbing recoil in line with the bore, but not necessarily at an ideal wrist angle. (I'm talking about radial ulnar deviation). In addition, avoiding flexion or extension will reduce torque as well. (Length of pull can affect that as mentioned above).

Great info shared here. Much appreciated.

To the OP, I get the same result when shooting any thumbhole stock, including the AICS. I have a bit of carpel tunnel starting in my right wrist and when I grip any thumbhole my wrist ends up canted outward away from the stock just a bit. Getting my wrist more in-line with the bore and more vertical really helps me and I don't get any fatigue or pain. I run an AX chassis and Manners T4A & T2A stocks with zero wrist issues. So, you aren't alone.

Best regards,

Mark

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Thanks so much to all of you for your thoughts. I'm going to look into all fixes, technique and otherwise.

Would keeping the rifle to close to my center do anything? I tend to ride it close to my neck, so my neck doesn't torque as far and for perceived improvement in recoil control. (this is a carry over from carbine shooting though). When I went prone at home yesterday, to get a feel for what I might have been doing, my wrist is definitely very broken. My forearm is approaching the grip at around a 70 degree angle it feels like. The only way to fix fix it I would think, would be much longer LOP or move the rifle further away from center line.

Who knows a good instructor in central KY haha? I need some in a bad way.

 

[SWRichmond]

Moving the butt further out away from your neck towards your shoulder will definitely straighten your wrist somewhat; so would longer LOP. I have seen people perfectly straight on their rifles; I am not one of them. That would put the butt on my collarbone and make it impossible for me to lay my cheek on the cheekpiece.

Are you comfortable on the rifle? Are you holding strain anywhere? Neck / back / shoulders / arms? Is your chin banging into the stock? When you finished your range session that caused the wrist pain, what else hurt the next day? See what I mean?