AK-74 vs. Brown Bear outside of Anchorage

[Anvil_X]

Turnagain Arm trail closed after hiker kills charging bear | Anchorage | ADN.com


heard this on the news this morning and thought I'd spread the word. I guess Fifteen shots of 5.45X39 will do the job.

 

[kraigWY]

I read that on the Anchorage Daily News Web Site. It worked but as the game warden said, not the best gun for defense against bears, I agree. I think luck and a guardian Angle had a lot to do with this incident.

I landed at Savoonga (St Lawrence Island) just as a guy shot a polar bear on the run way so we could land with a 220 Swift, it worked, but not for me.

 

[ORD]

Any AK-variant...versus a charging, 500lb+ bear...no thank you!!! Guy is VERY lucky to have come out of that incident unscathed!!

 

[rrflyer]

It's coming right for us!!

 

[coldboremiracle]

Certainly not my first choice for bear defense, but waaaaaaay better than bear spray!

 

[grayghost]

Was watching Alaska state troopers last night and the cops actually said that most natives have ar 15 for killing bears. They were on there way to arrest a felon.

 

[Veer_G]

Because somebody had to ...

 

[Anvil_X]

Was watching Alaska state troopers last night and the cops actually said that most natives have ar 15 for killing bears. They were on there way to arrest a felon.

hell, I'm surprised they go that heavy. I met an old Y'upik salt a while back, all he had was a Ruger 10-22. when my buddy, his grandson, got him a 25 round magazine for it, he looked at him and said "Son, what the hell am I going to use this for? I only need the first two rounds to drop a bear!"

Gotta love old Native dudes. they put a whole new spin on not giving a damn.

 

[wfjames22]

he was probably using brown bear ammo. Matched the picture on the box to the critter he needed to shoot.

^^^^this^^^^

 

[7.62willdo]

I read that on the Anchorage Daily News Web Site. It worked but as the game warden said, not the best gun for defense against bears, I agree. I think luck and a guardian Angle had a lot to do with this incident.

I landed at Savoonga (St Lawrence Island) just as a guy shot a polar bear on the run way so we could land with a 220 Swift, it worked, but not for me.

I've been to gamble and savoonga quite the party villages huh!
I read a book about a professional wolf hunter in alaska in the 30's that carried a pre-64 winchester in 220 swift and killed a lot of grizzlies with it....

 

[Sean the Nailer]

While interesting and concise, I just can't help but point out that it would be quite hard to acquire a Post-64 Winchester in the '30's. Or did they have their lines of transportation THAT GOOD? Back then it still was mule-team, was it not? Maybe things HAD improved somewhat?

 

[Anvil_X]

While interesting and concise, I just can't help but point out that it would be quite hard to acquire a Post-64 Winchester in the '30's. Or did they have their lines of transportation THAT GOOD? Back then it still was mule-team, was it not? Maybe things HAD improved somewhat?

lol Maybe it was a pre-1864 Winchester. in which case, it's 2 years older than the company itself. damn, that's gangster.

 

[thejeep]

30 rds of center fire cartridges=better than nothing. sometimes you just don't have a .416 rigby laying around.

 

[Anvil_X]

30 rds of center fire cartridges=better than nothing. sometimes you just don't have a .416 rigby laying around.

True. I never like to criticize what somebody's carrying in the woods because of that. At least they've got something, and hopefully the training to do something with it.

Actually surprised nobody's made mention of the whole "fifteen rounds is five more than the Anti-2/A folks would allow"

 

[CMH]

True. I never like to criticize what somebody's carrying in the woods because of that. At least they've got something, and hopefully the training to do something with it.

Actually surprised nobody's made mention of the whole "fifteen rounds is five more than the Anti-2/A folks would allow"

Where did you see 15 rounds? I read the article a second time because I was curious how many he fired and didn't see that info. Another source?

 

[Anvil_X]

Where did you see 15 rounds? I read the article a second time because I was curious how many he fired and didn't see that info. Another source?

sorry, it was on NPR that morning. They corrected it today to 13 rounds fired. and it turns out he only needed one. the fatal hit penetrated the skull, while the rest... I'm sure you can imagine.

Pretty damn good penetration if it went through the forehead, but another possibility is that it went into the nasal cavity. nice little inch diameter tunnel right to the brain.

 

[45.308]

Pure luck but in all honestly...that is all that counts in a bear charge!

I do believe there is more to this.

What I see coming, backcounrty users now thinking this is the perfect bear stopper....dood, I want a 9 so I's can pop that bear 17 boolets and use my other clip, that is hows you kilt a barr.

 

[Anvil_X]

Pure luck but in all honestly...that is all that counts in a bear charge!

I do believe there is more to this.

What I see coming, backcounrty users now thinking this is the perfect bear stopper....dood, I want a 9 so I's can pop that bear 17 boolets and use my other clip, that is hows you kilt a barr.

If you're right, then I can see how the turbohippies in girdwood and elsewhere would react. shoving that stick up their anti-2/A backsides just may be worth it.

 

[45.308]

I know them as subaru hippies from girdweed!

 

[T J]

I know them as subaru hippies from girdweed!

Now THAT is funny. One of my co-workers has a cabin above Girdwood. Being a Wyo redneck, that place made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.... hippies give me the heebie-jeebies.


t

 

[Veer_G]

What's the typical bullet design for that cartridge? FMJ? FMJ w/ penetrator?

Typical 52-53gr military rounds have an air space at the business end that's designed to induce yawing as soon as the round penetrates tissue.

[video=youtube;-Oq3ZEZ7YFw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw[/video]

 

[308Gunner]

When I go mule dear hunting I always have 2 things, a 45acp and a fat guy. The 45 while not a good bear stopper will hurt and the fat guy. BAIT

 

[Cartman]

It's coming right for us!!

"Mmm, out of ammo!"

 

[45.308]

Now THAT is funny. One of my co-workers has a cabin above Girdwood. Being a Wyo redneck, that place made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.... hippies give me the heebie-jeebies.


t

By a cabin above girdweed you do not mean tree people?

Have you witnessed the forest fair? Its not what it was but its still fun (weird). If you have not, go you will not be disappointed!

 

[T J]

By a cabin above girdweed you do not mean tree people?

Have you witnessed the forest fair? Its not what it was but its still fun (weird). If you have not, go you will not be disappointed!

God I hope he's not one of them-there tree people (being employed in the Oil Industry might have a negative effect on his longevity in the area).

I have not witnessed that particular fair. Last time I was there I believe there was some type of hill climb going on... April I believe.


t

 

[GunMax]

thats what i would use for a bear if i just wanted put a bunch of holes in a shot amount of time

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Typical 52-53gr military rounds have an air space at the business end that's designed to induce yawing as soon as the round penetrates tissue.

[video=youtube;-Oq3ZEZ7YFw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oq3ZEZ7YFw[/video]

Veer is right... it also had a thin steel rod inside and, more importantly, an airspace in it. It was also very unstable in flight. When it hits, it has a tendency to tumble and cause very nasty wound cavities. When the AK74 (Avtomat Kalashnikov 1974) started showing up in Afghanistan in the '80's, the round was called "The Devils Round" by the Muj because of the nasty wounds it inflicted. It didn't violate international conventions about hollowpoints because they were, in fact, a fully-jacketed round. But the effects were very similar. Google Martin Fackler who started the Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. He did a paper in the late 1980's that extensively looked at wound ballistics, including the 5.45.

I can actually see these being far more effective against a bear than one might think. The wound cavities and hydrostatic shock would be formidable. Not my first choice... but still formidable.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sierracharlie338]

Interesting video and read on the 5.45. Didnt expect those kind of terminal ballistics.

 

[dang472]

Rumor is that this guy used 5.56x45 ammo. I've been told it works great on bears. The Russians knew what they were doing with the AK-74. Not ideal, but doable!

 

[Bergmann]

I shot at it 10 times and almost all the round hit with two volleys from start to finish. 13 rounds were fired in all. I shot 3 warning shots. I remember finding about 6 holes in the hide. and one in the forearm. As to the ammo question, I used surplus ammo.. .He was 50ft away when he came at me. I was on the rocks with no where to run. He dropped 10 feet from me and went 300ft down the bluff..The 545 annihilated his chest cavity. One pierced his chest/shoulder and exited his arm pit. The one round shattered his forearm and i now have that bone on my shelf. And you can see the mouth strike in the pictures....

This happened in the early morning, in low light and i was out of breath from climbing..I did not panic or spray and pray like the douche media liked to say....

 

[JesseSB]

Thanks for the up date and clarification. Good shooting!

 

[BGE541]

Man solid job on dropping that thing with the old AK74. That last photo reminds me that Bear and Pig arent far apart. Stay safe...

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Once in a while... you get to meet "the guy" who we all talked about... and get the facts right from the source instead of merely via interweb speculation and theorizing. In this case, the pictures are worth many thousands of words. Thanks for the photos, Bergmann and for the details!

Good job on the bruin and glad to know you are a 'Hide member. I think you more than earned the "serious tactical marksman" title on that one!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Bergmann]

Thanks folks. Much appreciated.....That day I was going to take my AKMS but since i was going to be rock climbing I opted to take the lighter AK74. I wonder if i would have been as accurate with the AKMS seeing how it bucks worse then the AK74. In any case, I lived. It died...He would have surely killed me out on the rocks if I hadn't of stopped him.

This is the only forum I bothered to post a clarification because all of you were respectful and no one talked shit. I really appreciate that.

This is me a few months later when i went back to harvest some bones as souvenirs..(With the AKMS)



And I went and got a bear dog....His name is Olaf..We are sitting right where I was when the bear charged me




This was the left leg that i hit. I found the hole when we skinned him out. It was a perfect hole punched in the leg the same diameter as 545.. but at the time he was so musculature i couldn't tell it was broke..you can see the pieces mate perfectly. This is how i found it..I was actually hopeing to see this but i didnt expect it to be so clean so I took it..

<a href="http://s740.photobucket.com/user/bootnknife/media/Bear%20bones/DSCN3884_zpsdafbcc65.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/Bear%20bones/DSCN3884_zpsdafbcc65.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN3884_zpsdafbcc65.jpg"/></a>


Here is the same leg..notice a slight curve in it..still wasn't sure at the time that it was broke..

<a href="http://s740.photobucket.com/user/bootnknife/media/Bear%20attack/DSCN3579_zps47f688da.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx48/bootnknife/Bear%20attack/DSCN3579_zps47f688da.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN3579_zps47f688da.jpg"/></a>

 

[dbateman]

I shot at it 10 times

Nice shooting good job on keeping a cool head during a charge.

Thanks for taking time to post the pics.

 

[Bergmann]

You're welcome Sir.

 

[mountainman308]

There but for the grace of Mikhail Kalashnikov go you. Good shooting.

 

[Bergmann]

Thank you.

 

[Anvil_X]

Glad you're okay dude. I've been wondering exactly where on the trail you were, so thanks for posting the pics.

 

[Centuriator]

OK, note to self. Do not talk to bears when you see them.

The man called, “Hey, bear,” hoping not to startle the animal, he said.

Read more here: Turnagain Arm trail closed after hiker kills charging bear | Anchorage | ADN.com
​

 

[Centuriator]

What does bear meat taste like anyway?

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Amsdorf's post and this thread kind of reminds me of this guy:

Timothy Treadwell Incident--A Full Report and Examination

I always thought that Timothy Treadwell was about as ironic a figure as you could get. His "living among grizzlies" silliness and the way he anthropomorphized them into some kind of 'animal frat brother' was just inane. Yet plenty of Kool-Aid drinkers think this is what bears are like. They aren't. This idiot got himself and his greenie girlfriend kaked and eaten in Alaska by bears. End of story. Ironically, he died ironically. The line at the end of the article asks whether, as he was being dragged out of his camp by a bear, he still thought they were his friends??

Bears are not pets, toys or cuddly forest critters, not matter what you saw on Grizzly Adams, Gentle Ben or Brother Bear... the animated version. To Bergman's point about media whining... no doubt the whiners were big fans of the above series as suburbanite kids and have no clue about the realities of living in proximity to bears.

Those entering bear country have a responsibility to protect themselves as well as to take basic measures to not become 'bait' such as wrapping food, etc. There are good guidelines for travelling, hunting, camping, hiking, etc. in bear country to protect people and bears. My bet is that Bergman knows and practices them all. For the un-initiated or the delusional, handling bears like they are kittens is outright stupid and worthy of a Darwin Lifetime Achievement Award.

Amsdorf... all depends on how it's cooked. Eastern Black bear can be delicious... or so awful that, in the words of one friend, "it gets bigger when you chew it." Never had brown bear meat, though. Truthfully, I am not a huge fan of bear meat, except when cooked by a couple of people who I know who do it really well. It's why I never bothered to shoot one, though have had a couple of chances up here.

BTW, I took these from my front window a few summers ago. You've not lived until you called in late for work because your car was being guarded by bears! That's a huge clump of raspberry bushes on the right, BTW.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[Centuriator]

Wow.....


We have snow delays sometimes, but not many bear delays.

 

[MarinePMI]

Pure luck but in all honestly...that is all that counts in a bear charge!

I do believe there is more to this.

What I see coming, backcounrty users now thinking this is the perfect bear stopper....dood, I want a 9 so I's can pop that bear 17 boolets and use my other clip, that is hows you kilt a barr.

And so, said hippie, gangsta, gang banger get's eaten by a bear...I'm not seeing a downside yet, to having them believe a 9 or AK is sufficient for bear. Perhaps we should just let mother nature sort out the dumb ones, eh? (and no Bergmann, I'm not implying you fall into that category).

 

[Maggot]

So Im thinking of doing some back country in Yellowstone next year. Whats recommended? I was thinking a Remington Marine Magnum with 00 buck or slugs. Somehow an AK 47 with 30 rds seems comforting though.

 

[45.308]

And so, said hippie, gangsta, gang banger get's eaten by a bear...I'm not seeing a downside yet, to having them believe a 9 or AK is sufficient for bear. Perhaps we should just let mother nature sort out the dumb ones, eh? (and no Bergmann, I'm not implying you fall into that category).

My point is after dozens of encounters with bears, every bear and every encounter is different. AK47, AK74, M16, 12ga, 454, 30mm Bushmaster, 20 rounds a blazing or 2 well aimed, it all comes to luck.

Selling firearms, there has been a shift to high cap firearms for bear duty. Right or wrong its happening.

 

[45.308]

So Im thinking of doing some back country in Yellowstone next year. Whats recommended? I was thinking a Remington Marine Magnum with 00 buck or slugs. Somehow an AK 47 with 30 rds seems comforting though.

I would want a 12ga with slugs but its not the easiest to carry and use in the backcountry. It is the preferred weapon for bear guards in Alaska but most times we are not doing much but guarding, not fishing, cutting wood, etc, sometimes air support will locate a booboo and we go chase it away. It is a long gun. While the firepower is encouraging, its a long gun and can get in the way so it can be set down and left doing chores etc. when you discover your 12ga is 20 yards away when booboo shows up 15 yards away.

I would not want buckshot, I talked to those who like bird shot first two, buck shot next two then slugs and a whole host of shot shell combos, me, nothing but slugs, others may say different though.

A short gun carried on the chest is almost out of the way, more so than a rifle and shotgun and can be fired when a bear is on top of you chewing away. This thought is never processed by those carrying a bear weapon.

The best system, a can of spray, core cast loaded revolver, and a 12ga or long gun but most important is luck to include bear awareness signs, they are there but not always and every bear and every encounter is different.

good luck and have fun

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Maggott. Here are the rules for Wyoming national parks...

Firearms in Parks - Grand Teton National Park (U.S. National Park Service) Teton and Yellowstone should be the same rules.

Note the following: "Firearms may not be discharged in this national park (except during legal hunting seasons) and can not be used as a wildlife protection strategy. Bear spray and other safety precautions are the proven methods for preventing bear and other wildlife interactions"

So guess as long as you make the case that it's for personal protection against humans...

As for what to carry... I'll let those from "big bear" country recommend something.

BTW, here is a picture I took while motorcycling in Yellowstone in 2010:

The little dot is a Grizzly. That photo was blown way up and taken with a 135mm lens on a digital rangefinder. It was a long way away! I believe that it's a pretty big privilege to see any brown bear in Yellowstone these days. They are there, but not often seen while just riding around. This was mid-May. Still a lot of snow on the ground and for riding motorcycles, we were a bit early... snow and ice fell on us several times and we had one 20 mile section heading into Mammoth Lodge where we rode through 2 inches of ice pellets and snow. One of the scariest rides of my life. But on the plus side, we had the park utterly to ourselves. Such a perfect time to be in Yellowstone. It is a magnificent place... but you do get tired of geysers and mudpots after a day or so. Fortunately, there is a lot more to see than Old Faithful.

I love that whole part of the country.

Cheers, Sirhr

 

[Maggot]

Sir, thanks for the info. I ran into a grizzly while logging in Montana just east of St. Ignatius. Was driving one of the mt. roads and saw a cub eating some berries. I stopped for a better view and got out. About that time mama raised up out of a thicket and made kind of a 'Snuffing' sound. Having read that a Griz can pop the door off a car I hopped back in and left them to their breakfast. They are powerful critters and beautiful.

 

[Veer_G]

OK, note to self. Do not talk to bears when you see them.

The man called, “Hey, bear,” hoping not to startle the animal, he said.

Read more here: Turnagain Arm trail closed after hiker kills charging bear | Anchorage | ADN.com
​

Are you just about brain dead, or is it just an act? Who do you think it is who's posted here for everyone's benefit?