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All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price...

Bob Shaver

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 30, 2006
177
0
Illinois
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100805/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_carrier_killer

Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

ABOARD THE USS GEORGE WASHINGTON – Nothing projects U.S. global air and sea power more vividly than supercarriers. Bristling with fighter jets that can reach deep into even landlocked trouble zones, America's virtually invincible carrier fleet has long enforced its dominance of the high seas.

China may soon put an end to that.

U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with what analysts say is a game-changing weapon being developed by China — an unprecedented carrier-killing missile called the Dong Feng 21D that could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defenses of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 1,500 kilometers (900 miles).

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — The USS George Washington supercarrier recently deployed off North Korea in a high-profile show of U.S. sea power. AP Tokyo News Editor Eric Talmadge was aboard the carrier, and filed this report.

___

Analysts say final testing of the missile could come as soon as the end of this year, though questions remain about how fast China will be able to perfect its accuracy to the level needed to threaten a moving carrier at sea.

The weapon, a version of which was displayed last year in a Chinese military parade, could revolutionize China's role in the Pacific balance of power, seriously weakening Washington's ability to intervene in any potential conflict over Taiwan or North Korea. It could also deny U.S. ships safe access to international waters near China's 11,200-mile (18,000-kilometer) -long coastline.

While a nuclear bomb could theoretically sink a carrier, assuming its user was willing to raise the stakes to atomic levels, the conventionally-armed Dong Feng 21D's uniqueness is in its ability to hit a powerfully defended moving target with pin-point precision.

The Chinese Defense Ministry did not immediately respond to the AP's request for a comment.

Funded by annual double-digit increases in the defense budget for almost every year of the past two decades, the Chinese navy has become Asia's largest and has expanded beyond its traditional mission of retaking Taiwan to push its sphere of influence deeper into the Pacific and protect vital maritime trade routes.

"The Navy has long had to fear carrier-killing capabilities," said Patrick Cronin, senior director of the Asia-Pacific Security Program at the nonpartisan, Washington-based Center for a New American Security. "The emerging Chinese antiship missile capability, and in particular the DF 21D, represents the first post-Cold War capability that is both potentially capable of stopping our naval power projection and deliberately designed for that purpose."

Setting the stage for a possible conflict, Beijing has grown increasingly vocal in its demands for the U.S. to stay away from the wide swaths of ocean — covering much of the Yellow, East and South China seas — where it claims exclusivity.

It strongly opposed plans to hold U.S.-South Korean war games in the Yellow Sea off the northeastern Chinese coast, saying the participation of the USS George Washington supercarrier, with its 1,092-foot (333-meter) flight deck and 6,250 personnel, would be a provocation because it put Beijing within striking range of U.S. F-18 warplanes.

The carrier instead took part in maneuvers held farther away in the Sea of Japan.

U.S. officials deny Chinese pressure kept it away, and say they will not be told by Beijing where they can operate.

"We reserve the right to exercise in international waters anywhere in the world," Rear Adm. Daniel Cloyd, who headed the U.S. side of the exercises, said aboard the carrier during the maneuvers, which ended last week.

But the new missile, if able to evade the defenses of a carrier and of the vessels sailing with it, could undermine that policy.

"China can reach out and hit the U.S. well before the U.S. can get close enough to the mainland to hit back," said Toshi Yoshihara, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College. He said U.S. ships have only twice been that vulnerable — against Japan in World War II and against Soviet bombers in the Cold War.

Carrier-killing missiles "could have an enduring psychological effect on U.S. policymakers," he e-mailed to The AP. "It underscores more broadly that the U.S. Navy no longer rules the waves as it has since the end of World War II. The stark reality is that sea control cannot be taken for granted anymore."

Yoshihara said the weapon is causing considerable consternation in Washington, though — with attention focused on land wars in Afghanistan and Iraq — its implications haven't been widely discussed in public.

Analysts note that while much has been made of China's efforts to ready a carrier fleet of its own, it would likely take decades to catch U.S. carrier crews' level of expertise, training and experience.

But Beijing does not need to match the U.S. carrier for carrier. The Dong Feng 21D, smarter, and vastly cheaper, could successfully attack a U.S. carrier, or at least deter it from getting too close.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned of the threat in a speech last September at the Air Force Association Convention.

"When considering the military-modernization programs of countries like China, we should be concerned less with their potential ability to challenge the U.S. symmetrically — fighter to fighter or ship to ship — and more with their ability to disrupt our freedom of movement and narrow our strategic options," he said.

Gates said China's investments in cyber and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, along with ballistic missiles, "could threaten America's primary way to project power" through its forward air bases and carrier strike groups.

The Pentagon has been worried for years about China getting an anti-ship ballistic missile. The Pentagon considers such a missile an "anti-access," weapon, meaning that it could deny others access to certain areas.

The Air Force's top surveillance and intelligence officer, Lt. Gen. David Deptula, told reporters this week that China's effort to increase anti-access capability is part of a worrisome trend.

He did not single out the DF 21D, but said: "While we might not fight the Chinese, we may end up in situations where we'll certainly be opposing the equipment that they build and sell around the world."

Questions remain over when — and if — China will perfect the technology; hitting a moving carrier is no mean feat, requiring state-of-the-art guidance systems, and some experts believe it will take China a decade or so to field a reliable threat. Others, however, say final tests of the missile could come in the next year or two.

Former Navy commander James Kraska, a professor of international law and sea power at the U.S. Naval War College, recently wrote a controversial article in the magazine Orbis outlining a hypothetical scenario set just five years from now in which a Deng Feng 21D missile with a penetrator warhead sinks the USS George Washington.

That would usher in a "new epoch of international order in which Beijing emerges to displace the United States."

While China's Defense Ministry never comments on new weapons before they become operational, the DF 21D — which would travel at 10 times the speed of sound and carry conventional payloads — has been much discussed by military buffs online.

A pseudonymous article posted on Xinhuanet, website of China's official news agency, imagines the U.S. dispatching the George Washington to aid Taiwan against a Chinese attack.

The Chinese would respond with three salvos of DF 21D, the first of which would pierce the hull, start fires and shut down flight operations, the article says. The second would knock out its engines and be accompanied by air attacks. The third wave, the article says, would "send the George Washington to the bottom of the ocean."

Comments on the article were mostly positive.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price...

Given that the main things we seem to prioritize is ramped up production of morons, loafers and panzies, Pyramid schemes, boob jobs, lawsuits and the lowest price, it should not be surprising to find that a nation with 2 millenia of pent up greivances and 4 times our population, (most of whom work harder, and endure more privation in any given day, than most Americans will do in a year)would be looking to effectively counter our strategic advantage.

And I bet most American's will continue to labor under the delusion that some magic new technology will arise to prolong our indolent position.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price...

Although seriously neutered for the next 2 years I think our "Big Stick" is nuke subs floating off the coasts of every country in the world.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given that the main things we seem to prioritize is ramped up production of morons, loafers and panzies, Pyramid schemes, boob jobs, lawsuits and the lowest price, it should not be surprising to find that a nation with 2 millenia of pent up greivances and 4 times our population, (most of whom work harder, and endure more privation in any given day, than most Americans will do in a year)would be looking to effectively counter our strategic advantage.

And I bet most American's will continue to labor under the delusion that some magic new technology will arise to prolong our indolent position. </div></div>

The 'everyman' in China is indeed a hard worker, and cares jack or shit about us and the Chinese Commie government. The kind who buy CHinese here are also the ones who will sell their souls for that promised safety, and better life crap the libs spout off about.
I did post a hearty 'fuck you' to the entirety of the liberal types in that article. Made ME feel a lot better
grin.gif
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price...

This is why I don't buy shit made in China if I can at all avoid it.To people who say it is impossible,BS,do your research and read labels.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given that the main things we seem to prioritize is ramped up production of morons, loafers and panzies, Pyramid schemes, boob jobs, lawsuits and the lowest price, it should not be surprising to find that a nation with 2 millenia of pent up greivances and 4 times our population, (most of whom work harder, and endure more privation in any given day, than most Americans will do in a year)would be looking to effectively counter our strategic advantage.

And I bet most American's will continue to labor under the delusion that some magic new technology will arise to prolong our indolent position. </div></div>

Yeah, that's great and all, but what about the new season of Jersey Shore?!?!?!
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

I'll buy shit made anywhere. If I can afford it, it's good enough. Some situations can dictate preferences.

The problem isn't that China can do it affordably, it's that <span style="font-style: italic">we can't</span>. That's because we forgot about work ethic and productivity. It's because we decided that social justice is more important than anything tangible. It's because we stopped calling a spade a spade and an imagined wrong a matter of personal neurosis.

Put the blame where it belongs. When folks blame America, sometimes they're right ontarget. And we did it to ourselves. That's the real danger inherent in democracy. Bread and circuses translates very smoothly into beer, wrestling, and parapsychology reality shows. If you want to know thy enemy, first know thyself. Sometimes they're really one and the same.

You can tell who the enemy is very easily. They're the folks who insist the preceding is bushwa, and that the Emperor's new clothes are just so chic.

Greg
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

We can quote, bitch, moan and complain about Americans all we want. The bottom line is we as a nation are supporting the people around the world who are trying to kill us. So the more foreign oil we burn, and the more goods we import from China, then the more we are digging our own graves. Or the graves of our grandchildren. Because you can believe one thing for sure. When any one of those foreign nations feels strong enough to take us on-they will come. And you better believe that. So we need to stop crying and bitching, and do something before it is too late.

After all can you blame Beijing for not wanting the nuclear carrier George Bush or George Washington off their coast!! I sure as hell know we would not stand for it. China's first goal is to be the asian monarch. Ther first step was addicting us to their cheap product. These missiles are step two. And they are probably in a 10 step program!! Tom.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

What's wrong with America?
Christ...WHERE to friggen begin, hmm?

Take my 2007 Dodge Ram Megacab for example.
Sticker on the driver's door: "Assembled in Mexico"
Majority of the parts on my truck are made in Mexico, Canada, and, YES Virginia there IS a Santa Clause, China.

Take a Toyota Tundra for example.
Assembled in San Antonio, Texas.
Majority of the parts on the Tundra are made HERE including all the engines and transmissions.

Yet they call my Dodge an "American" truck, and the Toyota a "Foreign" truck?
Interesting...

Now which one would I rather have?
Let's put it this way:
If one particular dealer played his cards just a bit better, and took just a SMIDGE more money off, my screen name would be "CrewMax"
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

Well, bad as things are, I'm not goin' anwhere different. In for a penny, in for a pound. Wherever my country is headed, I'm headed there with it. My country doesnt have to be right or perfect; never was, I hope it never is.

I especially hope those politicos in Foggy Bottom get the messege this November that we're tired of them playing perfectionist with everything from public health to sex education, individual rights, and the world's most (normally, when left alone) robust economy. That's not what votes are for, and not why we elect them. They should stick with public works and providing for the common defense, and leave the rest of their preferred knitting to the private sector. A publicly managed economy is basically a clusterf*ck, and we have the (former) Soviet Union for an object lesson in such things. If they're too stupid to learn such things, they're too stupid to suck at the public trough.

Greg
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Megacab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's wrong with America?
Christ...WHERE to friggen begin, hmm?

Take my 2007 Dodge Ram Megacab for example.
Sticker on the driver's door: "Assembled in Mexico"
Majority of the parts on my truck are made in Mexico, Canada, and, YES Virginia there IS a Santa Clause, China.

Take a Toyota Tundra for example.
Assembled in San Antonio, Texas.
Majority of the parts on the Tundra are made HERE including all the engines and transmissions.

Yet they call my Dodge an "American" truck, and the Toyota a "Foreign" truck?
Interesting...

Now which one would I rather have?
Let's put it this way:
If one particular dealer played his cards just a bit better, and took just a SMIDGE more money off, my screen name would be "CrewMax"




</div></div>

I purchased the nicest drum brake pads I could find at the local auto parts store, figured I have 80,000 miles on my tundra about it's time for a change.

Took the drum off and busted out the calipers.


Get this; the freaking pad on there had more remaining material than the brand new ones I'd purchased.

Toyota, thumbs up for a quality constructed vehicle with quality components chosen. I love my Tundra.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I purchased the nicest drum brake pads I could find at the local auto parts store, figured I have 80,000 miles on my tundra about it's time for a change.

Took the drum off and busted out the calipers.


Get this; the freaking pad on there had more remaining material than the brand new ones I'd purchased.

Toyota, thumbs up for a quality constructed vehicle with quality components chosen. I love my Tundra. </div></div>

Yep, and at the same time, in LESS than 3 years my truck has had:

Front axle universal joints (left and right) replaced TWICE
Shock absorbers (all 4) replaced
Factory Nav head unit replaced
Rear window window replaced due to leaks


Funny that the guy's reply at the Toyota dealership, when I mentioned the Ram I was looking at had a lifetime powertrain warranty, was something like "That's excellent. You'll be taking full advantage of it, Sir."

Yep...Good 'ole American quality there!
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

I have no problems with my '04 F-150 80K miles. Quality is a mindset, and even with 6-sigma your going to get a faulty part on average every 10,000 items you produce, the problem is there are more than 10,000 parts in a modern car. The second part of the problem is a bit harder to nail down, American's pay a premium for everything, not just labor, so cost cutting and outsourcing have become the trend for sustainability for all american companies (obviously not super-premium or hand-crafted products that demand a premium price). The problem this brings is Toyota, Nissan, and others came to age during the time that this cost cutting started and were able to put their initial capital investments in the right place to give them a competitive advantage in the market. These companies didn't need to focus on cost cutting, because they didn't have the huge recapitalization expenses hanging over their heads on top of the premium prices already paid to simply exist. Unfortunately R&D and design are often seen a extraneous and cut first, this kills the future for the company because the money is not there to focus on the details which results in quality problems (comparatively).

The interesting thing about China is that it needs to become self-sustaining, and likely will not be able to. Here's why: China refuses to allow its currency to inflate because doing so will reduce it's competitiveness as an exporter resulting in less income. General macroeconomic theory provides that as countries trade their currencies will drift towards each other in value. Since China won't allow its currency to inflate, the more we trade with them the more the dollar declines. Once the currency is equal in value, there will no longer be any point in trading with China because we will be able to make the products domestically for the same price-hence 6 billion people no longer have jobs. For the time being this will not happen because China can leverage U.S. fiscal policy using its huge stockpile of U.S. reserves to prop up the dollar, but this relationship can not last forever. Capitalism is self cleansing, so at some point the U.S. will have to default on this debt (China knows this), at this point the U.S. will be forced to devalue and eliminate the dollar and adopt a new system. This is why China is trying to find a new currency (other than the dolar)to peg itself against--this will allow them to rid themselves of the risky U.S. treasuries and dollars without starting the aforementioned chain of events... Interesting times.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

Don't forget to thank former POTUS Clinton for handing over all the satellite navigation technology, missile guidance systems,& etc. to the Chicoms. Of course it was first denied, then whitewashed, then we were told it was of no strategic importance. You haven't forgotten have you?
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Megacab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's wrong with America?
Christ...WHERE to friggen begin, hmm?

Take my 2007 Dodge Ram Megacab for example.
Sticker on the driver's door: "Assembled in Mexico"
Majority of the parts on my truck are made in Mexico, Canada, and, YES Virginia there IS a Santa Clause, China.

Take a Toyota Tundra for example.
Assembled in San Antonio, Texas.
Majority of the parts on the Tundra are made HERE including all the engines and transmissions.

Yet they call my Dodge an "American" truck, and the Toyota a "Foreign" truck?
Interesting...

Now which one would I rather have?
Let's put it this way:
If one particular dealer played his cards just a bit better, and took just a SMIDGE more money off, my screen name would be "CrewMax"




</div></div>

I purchased the nicest drum brake pads I could find at the local auto parts store, figured I have 80,000 miles on my tundra about it's time for a change.

Took the drum off and busted out the calipers.


Get this; the freaking pad on there had more remaining material than the brand new ones I'd purchased.

Toyota, thumbs up for a quality constructed vehicle with quality components chosen. I love my Tundra.</div></div>

When it comes to parts from Toyota, Honda and Nissan you REALLY need to check the prices at the dealer. Many times the factory parts are cheaper by about 5% to 10% than the cheap brand at typical Pep Boys, Kragen etc. Particularly brake pads, shoes, oil filters, air filters, and some other standard service parts.
 
Re: All that cheap Chinese crap comes at a price..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COURAGEWOLF</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Megacab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's wrong with America?
Christ...WHERE to friggen begin, hmm?

Take my 2007 Dodge Ram Megacab for example.
Sticker on the driver's door: "Assembled in Mexico"
Majority of the parts on my truck are made in Mexico, Canada, and, YES Virginia there IS a Santa Clause, China.

Take a Toyota Tundra for example.
Assembled in San Antonio, Texas.
Majority of the parts on the Tundra are made HERE including all the engines and transmissions.

Yet they call my Dodge an "American" truck, and the Toyota a "Foreign" truck?
Interesting...

Now which one would I rather have?
Let's put it this way:
If one particular dealer played his cards just a bit better, and took just a SMIDGE more money off, my screen name would be "CrewMax"




</div></div>

I purchased the nicest drum brake pads I could find at the local auto parts store, figured I have 80,000 miles on my tundra about it's time for a change.

Took the drum off and busted out the calipers.


Get this; the freaking pad on there had more remaining material than the brand new ones I'd purchased.

Toyota, thumbs up for a quality constructed vehicle with quality components chosen. I love my Tundra.</div></div>

When it comes to parts from Toyota, Honda and Nissan you REALLY need to check the prices at the dealer. Many times the factory parts are cheaper by about 5% to 10% than the cheap brand at typical Pep Boys, Kragen etc. Particularly brake pads, shoes, oil filters, air filters, and some other standard service parts. </div></div>


Thanks for the heads up I appreciate it I'll probably be doing that next time around. Gonna wait it out a while I think.