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Gunsmithing Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

BigBrother

BigBrother

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 27, 2007
687
5
New England
Just something I was curious about recently -

Have any modern manufacturers re-examined revolver, lever, or other type of actions besides rotating bolt for precision rifles?

I don't know enough about how the tolerances work to predict how they would affect accuracy, but it seems like the whole bolt model isn't terribly efficient from a speed and ergonomics standpoint, so I was wondering why we don't see more alternatives besides gas.

Thanks.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I suppose someone could do a number on the Browning Lever Action...barrel extension might be a problem. Glue in the barrel to the stock and float the action... or something. Has to be someone with more time and nits. JMHO
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I guess what I'm getting at is, on the one hand you have piston/DI gas based systems, which have the too-many-moving-parts issues (reliability, absolute accuracy, etc.), and on the other, the bare bones, reduced to its simplest parts system which has a pretty serious disadvantage in rapid follow ups. I'm surprised an intermediate system hasn't been explored in so long.

In fact, I'm actually really surprised that by WWI, designs like repeating rifles and revolving rifles had been phased out - with both you're talking about substantially fewer motions than a bolt action.

Anyone know why?
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

What you don't see moving in a revolving action is the fine moving parts that make a revolver stay in proper time and lock up solidly.

Additionally a revolver design works well to a point, but bottle necked rifle rounds with chamber pressures exceeding 60ksi is beyond that.

Revolvers in 454 Casull at 50ksi are exorbitantly loud and harsh on the shooter.

A revolving bolt, lever action rifle would potentially be strong enough to take the pressures seen from modern loads, but I'd be hard pressed to say they are as strong and rugged as the classic 2 lug turn bolt without sitting down and actually doing the math on it.

Also, if you've seen what a turnbolt can be setup for I think you'd be amazed. There's some discussion on here regarding "Bolt actions being faster than gas guns" or something like that. It's a very specific application but the guys who are good at it are VERY good at it.

When it finally boils down, I'm not sure you'll find that a bolt action has all that many parts which a lever action or a revolver don't have. In many cases I can think that the bolt action probably has fewer assemblies and a lower part count than either of the lever or revolver platforms.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

There are a number of straight-pull bolt actions which are quick but usually lack the leverage of the standard turnbolt action for extracting tight cases. The Swiss have used them since 1889 and still do today in the SIG Blaser rifles. They are quick and ergonomic. The standard turnbolt (98 mauser, Rem 700 etc) can be ergonomic and is in fact very efficient especially when the low rotation 60 deg bolts are considered. Sako, Desert tactical etc fit in that catagory. As for the lever guns the Marlins have used lever operated rotating bolts for pretty powerful rifles so they are capable but lack the ergonomics of the standard turnbolt. Falling blocks are great but usually single shot so the followup shot that frequently gets mentioned may take longer to get off. Revolvers are too much trouble to seal for rifle cal's so probably not something future manufacturers will flock to.

My opinions of course so there ya go.
Frank
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Very interesting stuff. Thank you. Also:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
When it finally boils down, I'm not sure you'll find that a bolt action has all that many parts which a lever action or a revolver don't have. In many cases I can think that the bolt action probably has fewer assemblies and a lower part count than either of the lever or revolver platforms.
</div></div>

Right, you may have misunderstood me- I'm sure bolt actions have fewer, that's what I meant by an intermediate system as far as complexity is concerned. Interesting to hear about revolving cylinders and their pressure tolerances - didn't know about that, and I guess that logically rules those out. Still think though that lever or something similar would be interesting. As slick and quick as a rotating bolt can be, I just don't see a three-motion cycling action, which necessarily also takes the hand off the trigger area, is terribly efficient, even with the mad minute demonstrations. Just simple ergonomics.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I think I finally understand your post and have a few observations.

Actions serve the functions of providing fire control and a mechanical support for the barrel. Fire control covers such things as providing the means to set off the round AND controlling the pressure generated by the round so that shooting is safe. To that end, the bolt action has proven to be one of the best compromises of ease of operation, ease of manufacture, and efficiency of performing the tasks as any others you have mentioned. To handle the pressures of modern rounds, a "traditional" lever action would have to be so big and bulky as to make it unfit for use. Or, like the Browning BLR, it would basically have to be a turn bolt that is actuated by a finger lever.

As I see it, a bolt action offers the strongest lock-up; however, to follow your line of thinking - there ought to be another way of turning the bolt other than manually turning the bolt. Perhaps someone smarter than I could look at the Swiss K31 and the Anschutz Fortner action and figure out a way - maybe using counter force springs and ball bearings - to make a side pull or "flip" lever that would in turn turn and lock/unlock a bolt.

Of course, if it would cost too much to manufacture, we will never see it. Still, sitting there and thinking, "there's got to be another way...," is probably how John M. Browning started most of his projects.

Keep thinking.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Very interesting- thank you for the insight. Just wait till I get started on trigger design
wink.gif
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

A lever could easily be designed to operate the straight pull of the K31 but the question is why? It would really not give any better performance and would definitely increase complexity. On the other hand, the simple straight pull bolt action of the Swiss Blaser rifle can be operated without removing the trigger hand from the rifle because the bolt handle can be placed on either side of the bolt. The off hand can be used to cycle the bolt while the eye stays on target and the finger ready at the trigger. The lockup is secure and consistant using a collet type locking system on the bolt head so no rotation or tipping of the bolt meaning the bolt stays centered and accurate. It locks 360 degrees around the bolt head. Its an innovative and unique approach. I'm sure it would be possible to add a lever to it but once again the question is why complicate things for no gain?

On to triggers now???

Frank
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I've had an idea for a straight pull bolt action for a while now. Thought about putting into CAD and seeing if it would work. One "problem" with my idea is it probably wouldn't take too many extra pieces to make it a semi-auto action.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

CNC, why would that be a problem? You could have a gas gun upper or a bolt gun upper so that people living in places like the UK could own it or hunters in PA could use it to hunt (because our game laws are bass ackwards) while target shooters in the US could own the real deal and hunters in places like SC can use the gasser.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I think that the basic Stoner-like bolt carrier/turnbolt design can be incorporated into any style of operating system that can deliver a reciprocating motion.

I like the gas operated AR style semiauto action, but I despise the T-handle cocking apparatus. A would rather see a forend/handguard insert that cycles like a pump action to effect the cocking/dry cyling activity. This could allow cocking and clearance without requiring the operator to completely dismount the rifle from its firing position. As an alternative to a reciprocation forend insert, think of it as an 870 with a rigid support bar beneath the pump handle. There's still a stationary surface to rest on a bag, etc.

For operations purpose, I prefer the AR18/AR180 system over the gas impingement version. My preference would be for the operating system to be contained in a lower, so the same upper can be utilzed with any/many lowers and operating systems.

Greg
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CNC, why would that be a problem? You could have a gas gun upper or a bolt gun upper so that people living in places like the UK could own it or hunters in PA could use it to hunt (because our game laws are bass ackwards) while target shooters in the US could own the real deal and hunters in places like SC can use the gasser.</div></div>

Yah, that's why I put the quote marks around problem - I am thinking my idea would be functional as either a straight pull manual action or a semi auto. I am finishing up a Master's degree in engineering right now so time is tight, but I occasionally get the thought to develop it.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Take a right side charging AR and turn the gas port off VIA JP Gas Block or better now. Makes a straight pull bolt gun that is VERY fast to reload and optional semi auto function. Side Charger with a Noveske Switch block would be a killer combo!

Bump it up the AR10 category and it gets even better. The best part you pull the bolt back and let it go home.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Bohem - U of Wisconsin, MSCE (Engineering Mechanics). The degree is Civil, but only to get the engineering mechanics courses (Advanced Strength of Materials, Mechanics of Composites, etc). I work as a consulting engineer doing stress analysis, usually on things likes cars, aircraft, consumer goods, etc.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Problem I see with all the AR-conversion types you guys are mentioning is that, at least in my mind, you're still not getting the minimal parts/tight tolerances of a true bolt gun. In other words, not achieving the original objective. Now, perhaps ARs really have come far enough along, but I still hear reports from the field that the SR-25 doesn't perform like the M24s guys are using, so let's assume the point still stands.

Hmm, what about the Tubb actions? Curious if those are or could be made straight back.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

News to me and I think it's a truly innovative approach. I would combine the pump cycling/cocking with a piston type gas system, eliminating the "T" cocking handle.

It's a good start. A better one would get the cycling apparatus out of the upper and into the lower, along with the serial number.

Then allow alternative lowers (lever action, straight pull bolt handle, etc.).

Greg
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I think gas/piston guns (AR's) are heading in the direction of precision rifles. Bolt action hunting rifles became benchrest rifles. This was natural progession I think.

Every style of action has been tried for benchrest (bolt, fallingblock, break action, lever, yada yada yada.......) The turn bolt action has come out on top. Why? I not sure if its really better or just very proven or just easier to make better. The fact remains the bolt action is the choice.

Ar's now have a class of their own for organized benchrest competiton. If any one can squeeze all there is out of the AR platform, it is the benchrest guys. I like this. Those guys love push ever aspect of the system they use, to the point of obsession. This I like also... It will make the platform better.

More and more people are more familier with AR's than bolt actions. These days kids are not learning to shoot open sight bolt actions. Alot of 10/22's or Ar's are what I see Dads and Moms teaching with. Scoped at that...

This is the direction I think we are headed. The bolt action will be on top for a long time to come. But I really feel the AR platform is a solid runner up.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I finally understand your post and have a few observations.

Actions serve the functions of providing fire control and a mechanical support for the barrel. Fire control covers such things as providing the means to set off the round AND controlling the pressure generated by the round so that shooting is safe. ..

Keep thinking. </div></div>

My father was chief engineer of a Fortune 500 company for 40 years and mostly designed guns.
He was always complaining about how much fire control cost.
It cost a good part of a million $, but "fire control" was just for aiming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-control_system

I think that if enough bolt gun people keep calling the trigger group of a Rem700, or now a Marlin, "Fire Control", the language will change, and that idiom will mean trigger group.

I am personally waiting for the language to change and nuclear to be pronounced nucular so Sarah Palin and George W will be correct.

Think I'm being a douchebag? these guys are better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOpSORWDNXk&NR=1
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

The AR, in theory, should be the most accurate platform, due to the concentric lockup inherent in the bolt lug/fins. Practice may be sayng otherwise, or it may be saying we need to address this feature with more consideration.

The things we profess on this site may be some of the things that are driving the tendency of kids to divert from the single shot, bolt action, iron sight rifle as their basic trainer.

I have tried to champion simplicity and economy. Just as the things this country used to need included a good five cent cigar, what it may need today is a cheap, accurate, reliable rifle for the common man and boy, and woman and girl, too. Ergonomics that allow a good fit to be available without selling the family cow to be able to afford it. 1X sighting systems that work well. Common, affordable ammunition of a fixed standard that these basic trainer rifles are optimized to use. .22lr's good, but does it stop there?

I have no problems with the rifles we prefer here. But I also think we need to stress more the marksmanship foundation that makes them more than a bragging piece.

For example, we see all sorts of really excellent tutelage on the finer points of marksmanship. But how does our support of the basics, and the tools that enable those basics, measure up? I won't answer that, it's better thought of as a rhetorical question. But if it has practical implications; then it bears on this specific topic at least as much as any thoughts of ultimate implements.

We lament the legacy of firearms onwership and the bearing thereof. But what are we doing to get the love of our avocation spread out into the midst of an electorate who keeps returning our tormenters to the various capitals. Until <span style="font-style: italic">they</span> understand that <span style="font-style: italic">they</span> have a personal stake in gun ownership, we will always be the oddfolks. There are minorities and there are minorities, and we are still not the kind that wags the dog

Does the term "Appleseed" ring any bells here?

Greg
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Greg-

You're making some excellent points and I was waiting for Appleseed to be brought up. This site is geared to precision, scoped rifles. Appleseed hits on all the points that you bring up, and I think it's an excellent program.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Probably the next step forward will be electronic based..whether it's trigger group, ejection, caseless ammo, that will likely be the trend in the next gen..
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Actually, I hope not. I made my living from computers (largely, anyway), and there were always problems associated with dependence on electronic components and software devised by humans. It's an interface that can, by definition, probably never be perfect. Computers are infallible, but they are also inert without programming. Put a human in that loop, and imperfection <span style="font-style: italic">always</span> follows. As for letting machines program machines, I don't even want to go there in my nightmares (despite the fact that my most successful programs were the ones that came closest to this).

I have enough trouble when I talk directly with my firearms, let alone when I have to talk to software that talks to my rifle. IMHO, keep the silicon infrastructure out of the equation.

Greg
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

Support hand is way more important in driving a long gun, than firing/strong hand.

With semiauto actions, "machine" makes mistakes. With manual actions, "pilot" (user) makes mistakes. IMHO it's way easier to tune a machine than educate a user...

I'm not sure rotating bolt is the only way to contain modern pressures; FAL has a bolt vertically locking at rear, and the last version was rated to 15k rounds (or was it 20k) expected life, full auto.
 
Re: Alternative actions (lever, revolver, etc.)

I like the tilting bolt employed in the Simonov (SKS), and think it may be applicable to a very simple accuracy application.
 
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