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Ammo controll...the next step?

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
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    Virginia
    SAN FRANCISCO/NEW YORK (Reuters) - In tracking down illegal weapons, the smoking gun may not be a gun at all.

    Bullets are one thing Sacramento Police Detective Greg Halstead can count on to root out weapons that otherwise would be impossible to find. They are also largely missing from the gun control debate in Washington.

    Since 2008, California's capital has required ammunition dealers to take names and thumbprints of bullet buyers. They send the information electronically to police computers, which compare the names to an FBI criminal database.

    Halstead begins his day looking at a list of buyers, picking out the ones who aren't supposed to own ammunition - or guns. The thumbprint left by each prohibited buyer is nearly perfect evidence of crime.

    "The ammunition case is a slam-dunk solid," said Halstead, who regularly turns up illegal guns at homes he otherwise would have no reason to search. Some 154 felony convictions and 92 misdemeanor convictions have resulted so far.

    While the gun control initiatives launched by President Barack Obama on Wednesday in response to December's Connecticut school massacre are the most sweeping in decades, they are more focused on guns than bullets and omitted several controls on ammunition that some law enforcement officials say could help.

    The United States ended nearly two decades of federal ammunition control in 1986, concluding that regulating bullets was too much effort and failed to improve safety.

    Advocates say the major hurdle to effective ammunition control a quarter century ago - laborious cross-referencing of criminal databases - has been made easier by technology.

    Even the former head of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, whose 1986 testimony cleared the way for Congress to end ammunition controls, is of two minds now.

    Back then, ATF chief Steve Higgins wrote in a memo that was part of the testimony considered by Congress: "Current recordkeeping requirements for ammunition have no substantial law enforcement value."

    Speaking to Reuters 27 years later, he saw a chance that some controls on ammunition might work. "It might be like chicken soup - it can't hurt and it might help," he said.

    He added that the prime reason ammunition logs lacked any law enforcement value in 1986 was that his agents ignored them. The thinly stretched Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had 1,829 agents and investigators to police the nation's firearms.

    "We were just struggling to get enough people to deal with the gun part of it," Higgins said. "I don't remember doing much in the ammunition area."

    Higgins was still skeptical about whether computers would make tracking ammunition purchases easy, but said he was open to the idea.

    SHORT LIFE OF A BULLET

    Americans buy some 10 billion to 12 billion bullets every year, including military and law enforcement, according to estimates by the industry. Regulating them is a Herculean task but is easier than controlling guns in one significant way: a bullet usually doesn't last long.

    While guns are 'durable goods' that can last centuries, bullets last only one shot, and the trail between purchaser and shooter is generally a short one, making it easier to follow.

    Ammunition can be regulated in several ways, including recording buyer information; checking backgrounds of would-be buyers; banning Internet sales of ammunition; marking bullets with factory serial numbers or imprints from the gun that fired them; and banning high-capacity magazines.

    Of those measures, Obama chose one - asking Congress to reinstate a ban on magazines holding more than 10 rounds.

    Only a handful of states regulate ammunition sales in any way: Illinois, Massachusetts and New Jersey. A California law to require logs of some ammunition sales has been stalled in court.

    New York last week became the first state to require on-the-spot background checks when buying bullets, and limited magazines to seven rounds. The New York law also requires ammo dealers to register with the state and keep records of purchasers, which will enable police to receive automatic alerts if someone is stockpiling bullets.

    BUYING IN BULK

    U.S. gun, rifle and ammunition sales to civilians were $4.3 billion in 2011, with bullets amounting to about a third of the total, the National Shooting Sports Foundation estimates.

    High-capacity magazines are readily available over the Web - a 33-round magazine for a Glock handgun costs about $50. "You can load up on Monday, shoot until Tuesday," one salesman says in Web video.

    Over the years, consumer versions of military rifles have become very popular, and they eat up bullets.

    Some 70 percent of ammunition is for non-hunting use, primarily target practice, according to a survey of its members by the National Shooting Sports Foundation.

    "The consumption of 1,000 rounds or more is often routine for a weekend trip to the range," the foundation said in a note opposing ammunition regulation.

    And while target shooters need to buy in bulk, criminal shootings involve less than four rounds, on average, said Lawrence Keane, the foundation's senior vice president, quoting a 2003 study of Jersey City, New Jersey, police records in the early to mid-90s. (http://link.reuters.com/zub45t)

    The study period included years when the federal assault weapons ban was in place, and a 2004 study of the ban by one of the same researchers (http://link.reuters.com/jac45t) was cautious in its conclusion about large-capacity magazine limits. The impact on gun violence from the ban was likely to be small, but guns with large magazines tended to result in more shots fired and more victims.

    TRACKING THE BUYERS

    Los Angeles has required dealers to log ammunition sales since 1998, and police there say they check logs regularly.

    "This is something I think has made L.A. a safer place, really," said Los Angeles Police Department Captain Bill Hart, the head of the gangs and narcotics division.

    In California cities that require records of ammunition sales, law enforcement officials have found about 2 percent or 3 percent of sales were to prohibited owners.

    Gun rights advocates say ammunition regulations only affect lawful citizens.

    "Criminals have other sources of information and would not need to purchase it from California retailers who are required to register their sales," the California Rifle and Pistol Association told the California legislature in a statement submitted to oppose ammunition control.

    Keane, of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, argued that Sacramento and Los Angeles have no evidence that crime has decreased because of their laws.

    Halstead, the Sacramento detective, acknowledged that one reason for a decrease in prohibited sales in Sacramento could be that illegal buyers were shopping elsewhere.

    SERIAL NUMBERS

    Northeastern University researcher Glenn Pierce is a co-author of a RAND Corporation study (http://link.reuters.com/byb45t) of Los Angeles ammunition purchase logs from April and May 2004 that found 2.8 percent of purchases were by prohibited possessors.

    He sees regulating sales as the first step in ammunition control. The second is to put serial numbers on bullets - one number per box of ammunition. Allowing police to link a bullet to a purchaser would cut the supply of bullets into the illegal market sharply, he argued.

    A California bill to put serial numbers on bullets failed in 2005. Ammunition Coding System, a company with a laser-engraving technology for bullets, said the cost would be "not significant" but the industry said it would bankrupt them. The two sides also disagree on whether the serial numbers are always legible.

    Another measure proposed in California is to require licenses to buy bullets.

    PAST EXPERIENCE

    The United States swept in gun control laws after a string of assassinations including those of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy. The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibited mail-order sales of ammunition and required dealers to log their ammunition sales, in part.

    The Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986, passed under President Ronald Reagan, ended those ammunition regulations and broadly loosened gun control. High-capacity magazines were banned under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, which ended in 2004.

    Experts consulted by Reuters did not recall any studies of ammunition control in the 1970s and 1980s.

    In Washington, little has changed in attitudes towards ammunition control since the memo by then-ATF chief Higgins, even though federal agents cooperate with successful local ammunition programs.

    "Our own experience in regulating domestic transfers has shown that there is little utility for law enforcement in imposing the same controls on ammunition transfers as we do on arms. Accordingly, the United States largely eliminated most controls on domestic transfers of ammunition, " Assistant Secretary of State Thomas Countryman was quoted by The Hill as saying on July 10.

    That assessment was based on the U.S. experience in 1968-1986 and prepared by the Department of Justice for Countryman, who was negotiating an arms trade treaty.

    The White House had no immediate comment on why it did not include more ammunition measures in its package.

    Sacramento's Detective Halstead sees his work as extremely relevant to fighting crime. He counts down the list of gang members, parolees, registered sex offenders, and more that his group has tracked down.

    "That group represents some people who would have committed some violent crime in our community," the detective concluded.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    Guess that means I can spend cold winter mornings stamping serial numbers on my cast bullets.

    Sounds like fun.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    Make sure you stamp a matching number on the brass
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    Easy to control.

    Registration of all ammunition sales from here forward.

    No sales of primers to private citizens.

    That's not gun control. The 2A doesn't protect reloading, or how ammunition is distributed.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    There are so many problems with this I do not even know where to begin. First of all, so what if the bullet was stamped. It would be so mangled once it hit something that it would almost assuredly be illegible. Second, what happens when someone grabs someone else's brass at the range and reloads it? How do you control that? What happens if an ammo lot is stolen after someone buys it? Finally, these metals that are used in the creation of a cartridge are so soft that it would be easy to circumvent and erase the whole serial number deal anyways. I just don't see the point in even trying this. The fact is, there are ways around anything. They are just wasting time. I guess the people making laws are lacking something up top since we have seen all of these other nations prove that gun control doesn't work in any form yet we are going to try it anyways. Idiots. Certain drugs are illegal and have all kinds of regulation yet we still have a drug problem. They are just wasting tax payers money and acting like they are doing something.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SilentStalkr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are so many problems with this I do not even know where to begin. First of all, so what if the bullet was stamped. It would be so mangled once it hit something that it would almost assuredly be illegible. Second, what happens when someone grabs someone else's brass at the range and reloads it? How do you control that? What happens if an ammo lot is stolen after someone buys it? Finally, these metals that are used in the creation of a cartridge are so soft that it would be easy to circumvent and erase the whole serial number deal anyways. I just don't see the point in even trying this. The fact is, there are ways around anything. They are just wasting time. I guess the people making laws are lacking something up top since we have seen all of these other nations prove that gun control doesn't work in any form yet we are going to try it anyways. Idiots. Certain drugs are illegal and have all kinds of regulation yet we still have a drug problem. <span style="color: #990000">They are just wasting tax payers money and acting like they are doing something </span> . </div></div>

    Thats the whole thing in a nutshell, including a multi trillion dollar defict, nearly bankrupt social security, a couple of lost wars, failed healthcare system, and others.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    My humble opinion is that you guys are missing the point here.

    They know they can't roll out a flat out ban and drive a garbage truck down the street collecting your guns.

    What they can do is make you jump through a million hoops. All the while passing the cost of the new regulations back to gun owners through licenses, registration fees and taxes.

    Sooner or later the pendulum will swing. Like it or not fewer people will, one, be able to qualify for gun ownership due to criminal or mental issues, or two, pursue gun ownership due to increased hassle and cost.

    Once the naysayers outnumber us, we are done.

    How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

    And the the question of ammo registration;

    What happens if its stolen? 24 hours to report, or YOU are on the hook. Just like a gun.

    How do you control reloading? Require a manufacturers license. Once again, paperwork not in order, YOU are on the hook.

    It's just one more way to disqualify a person from the PRIVILIDGE of gun ownership.

    It's not a right anymore. If it were truly an uninfringed right, I would be able to walk into my local retailer and plunk down a fist full of dead presidents and walk out with a Ma Duece and cans full of ammo. No paperwork, no waiting, no nothing. No different than buying a sandwich at a deli.

    Don't let them fool you.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    MAGSTANG - you are borderline GENIUS!

    I have been telling people exactly what you stated for years...and yet here we are?

    Its getting people to stand back and look at this issue from 50k feet instead of worrying about mags and all the other bullshit...its components..its chipping away at it year after year - session after session..until ultimately they get what they want.

    If people need an example just look at the country as a whole - look at what it has become outside of the firearms industry and hobby. Think about the waste and all the other bullshit - it did not happen overnight..it took time. You have people that willingly live to simply work, buy shit and pay taxes..they have no other purpose. Its just a ride around the merry-go-round until one day they either die or wake up. Unfortunately the waking up usually happens too late - remember those old guys who said "don't do this or make sure you take time and do that"?...They were onto something!!!!
    It starts at home - expect better from yourselves, your family and your community. Politics is what it is...you will never change that. However having rational discussions with everyone you meet regarding 2A, firearms, Economics etc..will further the cause. If you want to be on the interwebs with fagbook and the like - make reasonable statements..nothing polarizing. If people disagree state facts in response but hold your ground. Conduct yourself as an ambassador.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    Logically... if they admit the right to bear arms they must admit the right to ammo to feed said arms.

    But logic has largely died in this <span style="font-style: italic">gente non sancta</span>...
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Logically... if they admit the right to bear arms they must admit the right to ammo to feed said arms.

    But logic has largely died in this <span style="font-style: italic">gente non sancta</span>... </div></div>

    It's not so much that its died; rather its not tempered and balanced by wisdom.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Blueclawz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MAGSTANG - you are borderline GENIUS! </div></div>

    Thanks man.

    It does concern me that even the gun enthusiasts among us are caught up in the short term effects.

    The recent legislation is nothing more than a footing for the next round of restrictions.

    First they will take what we are willing to give by justifying it with "safety" and children. Then they will take forcefully every open ended clause that is subject to interpretation. After that comes, well, who knows, but I'm damned sure we aren't going in the direction of deregulation of full autos. ( WHICH SHOULD NOT BE RESTRICTED )

    Folks, this is slight of hand. While we are looking in one direction, a storm is brewing behind our backs.

    Lets compare this to another example. Land.

    Lets say I own 100 acres.

    Along comes Joe.

    Mr. Blow decides I have too much land. He wants half. What need could I possibly have for 100 acres? 99% of the population owns less than 1 acre. They live just fine. Even though it's my constitutional right to own land, how much is reasonable?

    Is it reasonable for me to settle and give some land away?

    Lets say I give away 10 acres. Not a bad deal huh? I mean he wanted 50. I still have 90 acres. I saved 40 acres right?

    NO!!!!

    FUCK NO!

    This is exactly what is going on here people.

    They should get ZERO. Nothing. A kick in the ass and sent back to their office we elected them to so they can deal with REAL issues like budget.

    I believe ammo registration is coming. The days of buying undocumented ammunition are coming to an end. Maybe not now, but soon.

    Reloading will either be heavily regulated, or banned. Since there is no way to control the components in private hands, the easiest way to control it is to outlaw the sale of key components to unlicensed individuals.

    Sooner or later if you're caught with unloaded components it will be a felony. Which means your privilidge of firearms ownership will cease to exist.

    I've been sending emails to my state legislators, have you?
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    They're trying every way they can to take shooting sports and guns out of our lives. I guess they'll just gouge us on all the ammo and components so you have to be rich to shoot. I think if you can afford it you should be able to have an Abrams tank in the driveway and a F14 at your private airport.
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    There is an attack slated for next monday in CT. They want to limit the amount of ammo you can purchase and the amount you can possess! There are a ton of other nasty provisions coming along with it. It's not going to happen in the future, ITS HAPPENING NOW!
     
    Re: Ammo controll...the next step?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hookturnr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is an <span style="font-weight: bold">attack</span> slated for next monday in CT. They want to limit the amount of ammo you can purchase and the amount you can possess! There are a ton of other nasty provisions coming along with it. It's not going to happen in the future, ITS HAPPENING NOW! </div></div>

    An <span style="font-style: italic">attack?</span>

    I know that we're under a certain amount of siege at this point, but now there's going to be an attack?

    Any details on the location, timing, and elements?