Annealing: How Clean Do You Get Your Brass?

[OzzyO20]

I don't own an annealer (yet) and will have to outsource this for the time being. It was suggested that the brass be extremely clean before annealing, as to not 'bake' the carbon inside the brass. With the possibility of peening vis-à-vis SS tumbling, I bought an ultrasonic cleaner and now have freakishly clean brass. However, I've followed a few threads lately on cold-welded cases jacking SD's way up. I bought some Imperial Dry Neck Lube, which I know will be necessary when I resize the brass, and perhaps now even when I seat the bullets. So what is the best practice here? I can see carbon left inside causing more of a case capacity/variation issue than actually 'baking' to the case as carbon doesn't break down until well into the 6,000*F range. I can also see the value of carbon left in the neck as 'lube' and just chrono'd my first load workup on 2x fired, dry tumbled only, brass and had a 10 shot SD of 10.1 (not spectacular, but it was my first workup and I didn't have a Magnetospeed yet).

This isn't a post questioning another members preference for their service. I'm a firm believer in beggars cant be choosers, and I respect said members preference. This is more of a 'best practices' discussion for when I do acquire my own annealing machine, and for anyone else who has one and may be wondering the same thing.

 

[OzzyO20]

Said very clean brass.

 

[308pirate]

I think you're overthinking this.

Carbon residue inside the case won't be materially affected by being exposed to 800 - 900 F for a few seconds, which is all annealing takes.

I think you're also overthinking the effect carbon has on case capacity, etc, etc, etc.

KISS

 

[Fig]

I tumble in SS with Lemi-shine and a couple of drops of Dawn for 30-45 minutes only. It is enough to clean the primer pockets, but not enough to clean every bit of carbon out of the inside of the cases. They look as shiny as yours. I've run some range brass all the way to 3 hrs just to see what would happen. I find peening at about 1.5-2hrs. It just starts to turns the cases dull. They get progressively worse the longer you do it.

I don't believe annealing bakes carbon on worse. If anything it might burn some of it (like your oven on clean cycle). I know people who don't clean brass at all with seemingly no effect.

 

[spife7980]

For annealing? Cleanliness doesnt make a bit of difference.

For sizing: what are you lubing the outside of the case with? If its a spray I would just spritz it into the necks as well and avoid having to dip each piece before sizing unless you discover that you need to. The porcelain balls stick to the spray lubes and require a bit of time fiddling to get them cleaned off before sticking into the die.
If you were using imperial wax for the outside then I agree that a quick graphite dip would probably be easier than using a q tip to wax the inside of the neck.

For seating, just test it. You may find that they shoot better clean than lubed. Then let some sit awhile and se if they still shoot well or if the lube could help should you have cold welding going on. Might be nothing to bother with at all. Or you could just leave them seated long and then seat tot he final dimension (which breaks the cold weld) before you shoot them.

 

[OzzyO20]

I've been using Imperial Case Wax for sizing and was occasionally dabbing the inside to help the expander. Doing both seems like a PITA, but I'll see how it goes.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I don't anneal, but after having to use amazing force recently to pull some bullets that had only been seated a week before, I bought a case prep center and will be getting the necks very clean, and lubing with mica or graphite. Pull force is supposed to be consistent, and what I ran into was anything but.

Greg

 

[padom]

I only dry tumble, there is no need for all that cleaning other than to satisfy your bling craving. It does nothing for you and removing all that carbon out of the necks can hurt your SD's if you dont use dry lube when seating bullets. I only SS tumble 1x pistol and 5.56 brass I acquire the first time before using it. Everything else is dry tumbled, annealed then sized.

 

[spife7980]

I've been using Imperial Case Wax for sizing and was occasionally dabbing the inside to help the expander. Doing both seems like a PITA, but I'll see how it goes.

Wax the case walls, graphite the neck. The only way to make it easier is to use a spray instead.

 

[OzzyO20]

Wax the case walls, graphite the neck. The only way to make it easier is to use a spray instead.

Leave the shoulder alone?

 

[spife7980]

Leave the shoulder alone?

I mean a bit on it is fine but you dont have to make sure each one is completely covered.

 

[padom]

Ive switched to making my own lube with Lanolin and 99% alcohol in a spray bottle and will never look back. Did the imperial sizing wax thing forever and it works great but is slow. With the homemade lube, I have a large plastic bin I dump all my brass in, spray them a few times while shaking the bin so they get nice and coated, it gets inside the necks as well. Let them sit for 5min then you are ready to go. No more applying different lube to necks and body and doing them one at a time.....I hated other spray lubes on the market but the lanolin mixture is amazing.

 

[Sig Marine]

Temperatures when annealing are nowhere near what is acieved when the powder burns during ignition and firing. As stated above, no need to overthink the process. I typically clean the carbon from the outside of the necks, dry tumble for 20-30 minutes, anneal, size and decapp using Imperial sizing wax (I do NOT use the expander ball), wipe the cases of wax, prime, dip case necks in dry lube, drop powder and seat bullets. I then do a final wipe of the cases with a rag sprayed with alcohol to remove ALL lubricants. These methods aren’t anything new or innovative, many shooters use them. Others use a variation and might add a step or two but the basics are still there.

 

[Fig]

I keep a finger smeared with a thin amount of wax on it, and dip it every four or five cartridges when it all starts to rub off. It adds zero seconds per cartridge. I used to only use spray on the Dillon, but now I don't even do that since all my tool heads have carbide dies.

 

[LA260]

Ive switched to making my own lube with Lanolin and 99% alcohol in a spray bottle and will never look back. Did the imperial sizing wax thing forever and it works great but is slow. With the homemade lube, I have a large plastic bin I dump all my brass in, spray them a few times while shaking the bin so they get nice and coated, it gets inside the necks as well. Let them sit for 5min then you are ready to go. No more applying different lube to necks and body and doing them one at a time.....I hated other spray lubes on the market but the lanolin mixture is amazing.

Do you dry tumble one more time to clean up the lube after resizing the cases and before priming/seating bullets?

 

[padom]

Do you dry tumble one more time to clean up the lube after resizing the cases and before priming/seating bullets?

Yes I dry tumble to remove lube after sizing.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Padom; I dry tumble too, to get the brass clean before sizing, and protect my dies from getting scratched inside. I use water soluble lube for sizing, then remove it with a shop cloth dampened in rubbing alcohol.

I wonder, though, since the cases get caught and almost never touch anything but the rifle and me, whether tumbling is necessary at all. The neck soot wipes off with the shop cloth and alcohol. The only real crud on the cases is what's left inside after firing. I used to use a sonic cleaner and the brass looked new inside and out, but that was a bit of a hassle so I gave the cleaner away.

When the bullets got, well, bonded, I decided I needed to get the residue out of the necks and lube them to prevent bonding again. Am I doing anything wrong here?

Greg

 

[lash]

I only dry tumble, there is no need for all that cleaning other than to satisfy your bling craving. It does nothing for you and removing all that carbon out of the necks can hurt your SD's if you dont use dry lube when seating bullets. I only SS tumble 1x pistol and 5.56 brass I acquire the first time before using it. Everything else is dry tumbled, annealed then sized.

^^^This.^^^
I use Imperial sex wax (oh, wait...that's for surfboards) on the case walls and run a patch sprayed with some One-Shot quickly into ten case necks at a time for sizing. Then, after sizing, I dump 50 cases into a shallow pan, spread them out, spray them with some brake cleaner lightly, roll them around a couple seconds with a gloved hand and dump them dry (takes about 30 seconds). I spray them outside, due to the fumes. Then they are ready for priming.

 

[DellaDog]

I only dry tumble, there is no need for all that cleaning other than to satisfy your bling craving. It does nothing for you and removing all that carbon out of the necks can hurt your SD's if you dont use dry lube when seating bullets. I only SS tumble 1x pistol and 5.56 brass I acquire the first time before using it. Everything else is dry tumbled, annealed then sized.

I’ve read and worried about this before, but my limited testing doesn’t bear this out. While I do get peening, clean as new necks have NOT harmed my SDs or ES. I just got back from the range and Labradar’d 40 rounds of stainless steel tumbled, shiny, like new 5x fired Peterson 6.5 cases, H4350 with Berger 140 Hybrids - no dry lube. (I’ve tried, it’s too damn messy)

SD = 6 and ES 15. Hard to improve on that.

 

[lash]

Those are good numbers. Now make some of the same loads and let them set for a month before firing and retest them. I'm interested to see if there are any different results or if they will act the same way.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

OK, now I'm really lost...

Also interested in results from lash's suggestion.

Greg

 

[308pirate]

Holy shit some of you guys overthink things to an insane degree.

I toss all my clean brass in a large ziplock and spray the fuck out of it all with Hornady spray lube. Then I toss the shells around in the bag a few times and get to it.

When they are sized they go into a plastic jar full of alcohol. There they sit awhile while the lube dissolves. Strain them out, toss them in a baking sheet, and into a toaster oven at 250 for 30 min.

 

[lash]

By now I imagine that most of you realize that there is more than one way to skin this cat. Much of it depends on consistency in your loading process and exactly what you think that needs to be done to get good results. As primarily a match steel and hunting shooter, my idea of accuracy needs will likely be a bit different than those of someone who is shooting bench rest or maybe even F-class. There are those that say that no matter what your shooting discipline, you should always push for nothing less than perfection and for them, that is the correct answer. I like to keep my process as simple as I can as long as I still get good results. My spare time is quite limited right now, so loading needs to be quick, efficient and results oriented. Shooting a hundred rounds or so every weekend, while not as much as some, still requires a bit of prep time.

 

[DellaDog]

Bling, perhaps, but pin tumbled brass sure cleans up nicely. (60 minutes in tumbler)




Then 30 minutes in the wife’s repurposed veggie dehydrator and I’m ready to size again.
It really is quick, clean, easy and (in my testing) shows no impact on performance.

 

[OzzyO20]

@lash I think you nailed what I’m striving for; perfection. Not that I’ll ever come close, but that’s how I try and approach anything I invest time into. Good conversation so far, and interesting input all around.

 

[308pirate]

Nobody ever became a good shooter by becoming the world's best reloader

 

[OzzyO20]

Nobody ever became a good shooter by becoming the world's best reloader

And great shooters? At a certain point you have to be both if you want to excel. I’m damn far from great, but it’s like I said; if you’re investing your time into something you might as well strive for excellence.

 

[308pirate]

I guarantee you that great shooters make/buy ammo that is good enough as quickly as possible so they can spend their time doing what makes them great: training and practicing.

But by all means, turn everything up to 11 regardless of ROI

 

[DellaDog]

Nobody ever became a good shooter by becoming the world's best reloader

True.

But here’s something I recently realized. At the speeds I shoot, an ES of 40 with a 20 fps slower round (1/2 the ES) means a 5” drop difference at 1000yds - enough to miss low on a 1 minute plate aiming center mass. With an ES of 15 and a 7 fps slower round (again, 1/2 the ES) I’m low by about an 1 1/2”, but still comfortably on the plate.

ES and quality reloading is more important than I thought.

 

[OzzyO20]

I guarantee you that great shooters make/buy ammo that is good enough as quickly as possible so they can spend their time doing what makes them great: training and practicing.

But by all means, turn everything up to 11 regardless of ROI

I agree 100% they spend more time shooting than reloading. No doubt at all. But nobody’s half assing single digit SD ammo. They are doing the same successful process day in and day out at the bench. In this world consistency is king.

In racing we used to say that speed wins races, but consistency wins championships. I’m not trying to turn things to 11, but I wanna do things right. I’m still learning and want to learn from others so I don’t duplicate mistakes and adopt good practices early.

 

[Rhed]

Hmm .. I don’t think annealing a dirty brass will make a difference over clean ones IMO. I always anneal after every firing. But cleaning my brass in my work flow is before my annealing anyways. So I wouldn’t know.
My reloading work flow:
Decap
SS tumble wash
anneal
expander
resize
trim, deburr, chamfer
prime
drop
seat

 

[DellaDog]

Expander then resize?
I’ve heard this before, but don’t understand why. Aren’t they good and “expanded” after firing?

 

[lash]

Hmm .. I don’t think annealing a dirty brass will make a difference over clean ones IMO. I always anneal after every firing. But cleaning my brass in my work flow is before my annealing anyways. So I wouldn’t know.
My reloading work flow:
Decap
SS tumble wash
anneal
expander
resize
trim, deburr, chamfer
prime
drop
seat

Mine is exactly the same with the exception of dry walnut shell tumbling instead of SS wet. 30 minutes in there gets them clean, but does not polish them that much. If for some reason, I have a batch that is stubborn, 1 hour plus gets most everything very shiny.

I don't care if they aren't brand new polished. Clean is good enough and I can see my brass amongst everybody else's. The annealing coloration helps a bit too.

Oh. And, I do a full-length size with slight expander ball for concentricity, then collet die for consistent neck tension.

 

[Rhed]

Mine is exactly the same with the exception of dry walnut shell tumbling instead of SS wet. 30 minutes in there gets them clean, but does not polish them that much. If for some reason, I have a batch that is stubborn, 1 hour plus gets most everything very shiny.

I don't care if they aren't brand new polished. Clean is good enough and I can see my brass amongst everybody else's. The annealing coloration helps a bit too.

Oh. And, I do a full-length size with slight expander ball for concentricity, then collet die for consistent neck tension.

IMO dry or wet tumble both gets the job done. Either way is not better then the other. The only reason I wet tumble cause I’m lazy to clean primer pockets.

 

[6.5Creedguy]

My experience has been great with crushed walnut and no addatives for 12hrs. I resize and anneal first then tumble.