Annealing: Too much heat?

josh audet

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Sep 20, 2014
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This is Hornady 3x fired 6mm arc brass fire from a gas gun.
Can someone help me with where I went wrong? This ridge wasn’t there before sizing. Not all brass does it. Is it because this piece was overpressured or am I doing something while sizing to cause this? Annealing heat getting too close to the head?
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Gwain

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what is your load / powder / bullet weight? I would guess over pressure. Measure a case at case head and about half inch towards neck from case head on new and your 3x fired.
 

whatsupdoc

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    Check and clean your die, make sure you are using enough resizing lube.
    What die and what lube are you using?

    I have had that before on my 222 it was the die, only did it on certain brands of brass. Sent it back
    to hornady and they either fixed or replaced the die.
     
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    acudaowner

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    but why would the heat from annealing affect the base of the brass when you only anneal the neck ?
     
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    KnowNothing256

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    You need to measure the case at the web. Looks like your die squeezed the case wall below the OD of the web, which could indeed mean that the case head stretched. I’d expect you to have loose primer pockets as well if that’s the case.

    Compare the case web OD to the cartridge spec, if it’s too big you stretched it. If not, you have a die problem, although I’m not sure what. Too much lube typically manifests as dimples in the shoulder, not your thing. If the die was undersized, I’d expect almost all your brass to exhibit the problem.
     

    josh audet

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    You need to measure the case at the web. Looks like your die squeezed the case wall below the OD of the web, which could indeed mean that the case head stretched. I’d expect you to have loose primer pockets as well if that’s the case.

    Compare the case web OD to the cartridge spec, if it’s too big you stretched it. If not, you have a die problem, although I’m not sure what. Too much lube typically manifests as dimples in the shoulder, not your thing. If the die was undersized, I’d expect almost all your brass to exhibit the problem.
    I just measured some first fired factory ammo brass (Hornady) and it’s slightly larger than new factory ammo but still within the cartridge specs.
    I’ve heard someone somewhere say to see how easy the cases crush with pliers vs cases without the issue… the problem cases were pinched slightly easier. I’m leaning towards case body/head overheated.
    Which means all of these cases with the issue are junk right?
     

    josh audet

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    What are the measurements/dimensions?
    65B73E2D-7E28-423D-BFB7-088B7B779516.png

    Problem cases are now 1-2 thou over the .441” at the head.
    I have some that are partially to fully bulged larger than spec but still successfully full length sized now. The tough ones to size never fully bumped the shoulder either probably because the ridge prevented the die from going down any further.
     

    KnowNothing256

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    View attachment 7720657
    Problem cases are now 1-2 thou over the .441” at the head.
    I have some that are partially to fully bulged larger than spec but still successfully full length sized now. The tough ones to size never fully bumped the shoulder either probably because the ridge prevented the die from going down any further.
    Then yeah, I’d say just toss ‘em.
     
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    josh audet

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    what is your load / powder / bullet weight? I would guess over pressure. Measure a case at case head and about half inch towards neck from case head on new and your 3x fired.
    Lately it’s been 29.4 gr LeverEvolution 108 eldm but some of the 2nd firing had up to 30.0 gr. It looked good this spring but summer time it got hot and I’ve been learning a lot about everything from gas systems, cleaning, temp instability, and brass prep the hard way for the past 6 months! Lol
     

    LR1845

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    when did you last anneal these cases? how long do you leave them in the flame? can you mark on a case with a sharpie where you have the flame on the case when annealing?

    i ask because i do not see any signs of over annealing and as someone said above it looks more like your load is a little on the warm side and a loose chamber with a tight die.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    I have a RCBS small base 264LBC die that would that. I polished it with some 400 grit until it stopped.
     

    josh audet

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    when did you last anneal these cases? how long do you leave them in the flame? can you mark on a case with a sharpie where you have the flame on the case when annealing?

    i ask because i do not see any signs of over annealing and as someone said above it looks more like your load is a little on the warm side and a loose chamber with a tight die.
    I anneal them after every firing. These were all done 2 days ago.
    I’ve been putting them in a socket and rotating them via hand drill in a dark room to see when necks started to glow (12-14 seconds). After seeing what others do for annealing, I think I should be doing it for 5-6 seconds, rather than waiting to see the neck glow, correct?
    The center of the flame points at the bottom of the neck so there’s the side part of the flame that hits the shoulder too. I may need to get a different torch or do something there different so the flame isn’t as wide.
    Of the ~145 cases I annealed, here’s where they checked out:
    8 never fully resized, immediately put aside. Clearly out of spec.
    25 fully resized but show a slight ridge. Barely out of spec but otherwise would’ve been loaded if I didn’t just check for it.
    107 show no signs and I didn’t find any of these out of spec at the head either.
    AB64614C-8703-4C7F-984C-8B22A7A919C6.jpeg
     

    Gwain

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    probably both, over annealing and running hot. I did not see any load data for the 108s, but it would be less than this listed by Hornady.

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    LR1845

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    I anneal them after every firing. These were all done 2 days ago.
    I’ve been putting them in a socket and rotating them via hand drill in a dark room to see when necks started to glow (12-14 seconds). After seeing what others do for annealing, I think I should be doing it for 5-6 seconds, rather than waiting to see the neck glow, correct?
    The center of the flame points at the bottom of the neck so there’s the side part of the flame that hits the shoulder too. I may need to get a different torch or do something there different so the flame isn’t as wide.
    Of the ~145 cases I annealed, here’s where they checked out:
    8 never fully resized, immediately put aside. Clearly out of spec.
    25 fully resized but show a slight ridge. Barely out of spec but otherwise would’ve been loaded if I didn’t just check for it.
    107 show no signs and I didn’t find any of these out of spec at the head either.
    View attachment 7720817
    you are correct about the timing in the flame...14secs is way to long in anything ive ever annealed with a torch especially if your using a torch that has the smaller pin point flame tip inside the larger outer flame(if that makes sense)and yes pointed at the neck shoulder junction is the correct place.

    my suggestion...get a bottle of tempilac 750 so you have a better idea of where your at with your annealing the glowing neck IMHO is the worst way to gauge annealing.
    that said i still think your load is a little warm..your chamber is a little loose and die a little tight i dont think its all an annealing issue.
     
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    josh audet

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    you are correct about the timing in the flame...14secs is way to long in anything ive ever annealed with a torch especially if your using a torch that has the smaller pin point flame tip inside the larger outer flame(if that makes sense)and yes pointed at the neck shoulder junction is the correct place.

    my suggestion...get a bottle of tempilac 750 so you have a better idea of where your at with your annealing the glowing neck IMHO is the worst way to gauge annealing.
    that said i still think your load is a little warm..your chamber is a little loose and die a little tight i dont think its all an annealing issue.
    Ok great! Thank you all for the feedback and help.
    I’m discarding any piece with even a visual sign of the ridge and my next annealing sessions will be at 5-6 seconds. I’ll anneal some other 1x and 2x fired pieces and loaded for my next trip to the range this weekend hopefully and I’ll test how they perform compared to a handful of the 3x in-spec pieces.
     

    LR1845

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    I hear of folks running 29.8 for the 103, 105, and 108’s without any pressure signs.
    View attachment 7720869
    keep in mind just because it works for other ppl does not mean it will work for you...for instance i know and shoot with @Gwian...he just had a barrel that was causing pressure issues...same brand..same smith..same reamer..same loading components..same action everything the same as a few other barrels prior but this barrel was a no go.
     

    josh audet

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    keep in mind just because it works for other ppl does not mean it will work for you...for instance i know and shoot with @Gwian...he just had a barrel that was causing pressure issues...same brand..same smith..same reamer..same loading components..same action everything the same as a few other barrels prior but this barrel was a no go.
    agreed. I’ve seen the majority of folks getting good results between 29.4 and 29.8 gr with the same barrel so it helps me manage my own expectations. But I’ve got a bundle of issues going on plus learning the basics of reloading still obviously! so now that I’ll have the annealing not jacking up my brass, my load development 500 rounds into the barrel should start becoming valuable! Lol
     
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    r.tenorio671

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    ...at some of the prices for the brass being used for 6ARC or the ammo itself, IMHO it would be more cost efficient for you to get an annealing machine that will provide better consistency & control of the flame to casing, just my now deflated $0.02...
     
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