Another kaboom - this time an AR version!

deepsea

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Buddy of mine was shooting a DDM4V7 and it looks like an out of battery detonation to me. He did mention he bought some “remanufactured ammo” from gunbroker which I’d wager is the problem. My guess he is SOL as far as DD helping him out. Any better educated guesses on what happened here?


E88B68AB-8930-4150-8BA7-843FB74E472F.jpeg

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deepsea

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I swear it wasn’t me 😂😂 - I’ll see if I can get some more pics.
 
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buffalowinter

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    An out of battery KB is not posable in an AR. The firing pin will not reach the primer unless the bolt is locked.
    True, but there are all kinds of strange circumstances that can lead to an out of battery discharge in an AR. Specifically, if the firing pin gets dirty or gritty and stays fully forward coupled with a dirty chamber or badly sized cartridge that doesn't seat fully. This leads to an unseated cartridge getting smacked with the firing pin.
     

    whatsupdoc

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    True, but there are all kinds of strange circumstances that can lead to an out of battery discharge in an AR. Specifically, if the firing pin gets dirty or gritty and stays fully forward coupled with a dirty chamber or badly sized cartridge that doesn't seat fully. This leads to an unseated cartridge getting smacked with the firing pin.
    Cant happen as the FP is mechanically retracted by the bolt carrier, does not matter how dirty it is.
    The only way that the firing pin could protrude with an out of battery bolt is if the stem broke away from the base.
     

    bfoosh006

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    I will be interested in seeing if the cam pin is in one piece.

    Could the OP please find out what brand “remanufactured ammo” ?
     
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    srt-4_uk

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    True, but there are all kinds of strange circumstances that can lead to an out of battery discharge in an AR. Specifically, if the firing pin gets dirty or gritty and stays fully forward coupled with a dirty chamber or badly sized cartridge that doesn't seat fully. This leads to an unseated cartridge getting smacked with the firing pin.
    Even if the firing pin gets stuck forward, it can't happen. The bolt has the rotate for the firing pin to reach. Take out your BCG, hold the pin forward, and rotate. You'll see what I mean.
     

    whatsupdoc

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    Lower seems ok, get an upper, a barrel and a BCG and you should be back in business.

    Send the bill to the guy he bought the ammo from.
     

    char923

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    Looks like over pressured ammo maybe and cause bolt carrier come a part, the bottom half of it is missing and the bolt still looks like it is lock into the barrel lugs or the carrier had a crack in it and just finally come a part.
     

    Numb_Skull

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    Hello Daniel,

    I was recently in El Paso, Tx and I picked up some ammunition from Juans taquito truck and tortilla press and you’re not going to believe what happened! YOUR piece of shit rifle blew up!

    Now I demand that you compensate my loss with a brand new rifle and replace my expended ammunition. I’m looking forward to your swift response and receiving my due compensation.

    Regards,
     

    msgriff

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    The pic through the magwell looks like the cam pin is vertical (unlocked) with the bolt extended from the carrier. Barrel extension doesn't look blown out and the rear of the bolt lugs are just visible. I'd say the BCG started to cycle after normal rifle function. I'm going with overpressure ammo, duplexed or wrong powder, or a situation like Molon's Berger experience.
     

    acudaowner

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    I think it's just a group of people hell bent on being abusive to there guns . poor poor little fire arm those mean people can't hurt you any more . 😭😭
     
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    Darkside-Six

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    “an AR cannot fire out of battery” is a misleading statement. There are certain instances when it will, in fact fire out of battery.

    Back about 10 years or so ago when I got my first progressive press and was trying to crank out mass quantities of ammo after Sandy Hook I had a bunch of 5.56 brass that wasn’t getting all the way sized down at the base. Blew up a few magazines and 2 extractors on the bolt before we figured it out. Hit the brass with a small base die and problem was gone and never came back. Few years ago had a buddy that experienced the exact same thing. The base of the casing was not allowing the bolt to close all the way yet it was still able to set off the round when the trigger was pulled. It was apparent by the “double” head on the case.

    I’m betting that something similar happens with this ammo being that it’s reloaded ammo.
     
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    MK20

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    Had this same thing happen to a work mk18 with my buddy. It cracked the upper lengthwise and bulged his lower. This one looks pretty good by comparison. New upper from PSA and you won't even know the difference.

    😉
     
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    srt-4_uk

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    “an AR cannot fire out of battery” is a misleading statement. There are certain instances when it will, in fact fire out of battery.

    Back about 10 years or so ago when I got my first progressive press and was trying to crank out mass quantities of ammo after Sandy Hook I had a bunch of 5.56 brass that wasn’t getting all the way sized down at the base. Blew up a few magazines and 2 extractors on the bolt before we figured it out. Hit the brass with a small base die and problem was gone and never came back. Few years ago had a buddy that experienced the exact same thing. The base of the casing was not allowing the bolt to close all the way yet it was still able to set off the round when the trigger was pulled. It was apparent by the “double” head on the case.

    I’m betting that something similar happens with this ammo being that it’s reloaded ammo.
    Go back and read what everyone else wrote. Even if your brass is sized incorrectly, if the bolt isn't closed, firing pin won't reach. This assumes everything is in spec and good working order.

    It is possible debris was on the bolt face and it slam fires out of battery. Or if you had debris in the firing pin channel and effectively "lengthening" the firing pin. Would have to be a decent amount of debris though.

    In your case I'd assume bad brass of unknown origin or "got my first progressive press and was trying to crank out mass quantities of ammo".
     

    DocRDS

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    Why does everyone go after the firearm manufacturer when this happens?!

    Stupid.
    This.

    Follow the model of Molon. He demonstrated the ammo was the problem (and didn't really want compensation--he wanted to know WTF happened). At this point we don't know if its the ammo or the rifle. It already sounds like your 'tude is "Well DD is good people so they will make it right"

    What if it wasn't their fault
    What if it was the ammo
    What if it was the operator (the notorious 300BO in a 223).

    Too many details missing to blame DD at this point and nothing suggests its their problem.

    And as point #2:
    People want a Gucci AR and then put shit ammo through it.

    Boggles the mind.

    HEY GUYS I JUST BOUGHT A NEW AI!! LETS GETS SOME LAX REMANS AND HIT THE RANGE!!!

    OMG IT BLEW UP THE GUN!!! AI REPLACE MY NEW RIFLE!!!
     

    Darkside-Six

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    Go back and read what everyone else wrote. Even if your brass is sized incorrectly, if the bolt isn't closed, firing pin won't reach. This assumes everything is in spec and good working order.

    It is possible debris was on the bolt face and it slam fires out of battery. Or if you had debris in the firing pin channel and effectively "lengthening" the firing pin. Would have to be a decent amount of debris though.

    In your case I'd assume bad brass of unknown origin or "got my first progressive press and was trying to crank out mass quantities of ammo".
    Then how else would you explain a cartridge with an oversized base that won’t close all the way still being able to be fired? It happens.
     

    srt-4_uk

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    Take the BCG out of your gun
    Push the firing pin forward with your hand
    Push the bolt in slowly
    Look at the lugs rotating
    stop when the firing pin protrudes
    Notice when the firing pin protrudes, the bolt is already rotated and therefore locked into place.
    Push bolt again and notice the last bit of travel gets the carrier and firing pin closer to the locked bolt.

    Now put BCG back into upper and remove upper from lower
    Slowly pull back charging handle
    See how the carrier moves backward before the bolt unlocks

    That's how the bolt can still be locked and the carrier not be all the way forward.
     

    Steve_In_29

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    For what it’s worth. I’m curious for pics of the BCG group too - working on getting them

    View attachment 7766913
    Absent a defect in the rifle WHY would he even think Daniel Defense would "compensate" him

    Typical entitled attitude. I screwed up but somebody needs to make me better.

    Even if the ammo company included a 300blk in the lot, the OP's "friend" still loaded it into the mag without catching that, "one of these things is NOT like the others".
     
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    dauntedfuture

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    Super typical over pressure. Too much of the wrong powder or a partial bore obstruction.

    Clean bore and run a patch down bore, sand in bore produces similar results.
     

    reubenski

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    This.

    Follow the model of Molon. He demonstrated the ammo was the problem (and didn't really want compensation--he wanted to know WTF happened). At this point we don't know if its the ammo or the rifle. It already sounds like your 'tude is "Well DD is good people so they will make it right"

    What if it wasn't their fault
    What if it was the ammo
    What if it was the operator (the notorious 300BO in a 223).

    Too many details missing to blame DD at this point and nothing suggests its their problem.

    And as point #2:
    People want a Gucci AR and then put shit ammo through it.

    Boggles the mind.

    HEY GUYS I JUST BOUGHT A NEW AI!! LETS GETS SOME LAX REMANS AND HIT THE RANGE!!!

    OMG IT BLEW UP THE GUN!!! AI REPLACE MY NEW RIFLE!!!
    FU Fed
     

    deepsea

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    Absent a defect in the rifle WHY would he even think Daniel Defense would "compensate" him

    Typical entitled attitude. I screwed up but somebody needs to make me better.

    Even if the ammo company included a 300blk in the lot, the OP's "friend" still loaded it into the mag without catching that, "one of these things is NOT like the others".

    For what its worth there was never an expectation on my end that DD do anything about it at all and I mentioned that to him when we talked. And if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning - to me it was user error from the start and I saw absolutely no fault from DD and therefore he was rightfully SOL from DD helping him. I had suspicions but couldn't nail down an answer and was curious to the opinions of those here smarter than me as to what happened. He already ordered a new upper/bcg/barrel etc and plan to reassemble the rifle. Thanks to those who provided input as to what they think happened... 300blk round is completely possible too. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on the rifle yet and will post some updates when I do.
     

    JohnCarter17

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    For what its worth there was never an expectation on my end that DD do anything about it at all and I mentioned that to him when we talked. And if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning - to me it was user error from the start and I saw absolutely no fault from DD and therefore he was rightfully SOL from DD helping him. I had suspicions but couldn't nail down an answer and was curious to the opinions of those here smarter than me as to what happened. He already ordered a new upper/bcg/barrel etc and plan to reassemble the rifle. Thanks to those who provided input as to what they think happened... 300blk round is completely possible too. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on the rifle yet and will post some updates when I do.
    I hope you don't shoot next to your "friends" at the range.
     

    Darkside-Six

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    What proves this is out of battery, and not just a severe pressure event? I have had a few of those happen shooting remanufactured ammo. Never had one bad enough to blow up the mag or extractor, but they had the mini belt mag look, and I think the would have accepted a LRP.
    Because as I mentioned above, the base of the cartridge wasn’t sized down enough. Wouldn’t fit in a no-go gauge.
     

    Steve_In_29

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    For what its worth there was never an expectation on my end that DD do anything about it at all and I mentioned that to him when we talked. And if I wasn't clear enough in the beginning - to me it was user error from the start and I saw absolutely no fault from DD and therefore he was rightfully SOL from DD helping him. I had suspicions but couldn't nail down an answer and was curious to the opinions of those here smarter than me as to what happened. He already ordered a new upper/bcg/barrel etc and plan to reassemble the rifle. Thanks to those who provided input as to what they think happened... 300blk round is completely possible too. I haven't had a chance to get my hands on the rifle yet and will post some updates when I do.
    I was simply commenting on what your friend had texted to you.
     
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    supercorndogs

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    I don't think the brass you showed a picture of fired out of battery, or you would have multiple pieces, not just a severely expanded case head in the area that's not supported by the chamber. I don't think you would have had brass extrusion into the ejector, and I don't think the case would have failed at the extractor if the bolt was unlocked. The bolt would have moved freely out of the way allowing the pressure to blow the case and receivers apart.

    We have seen a couple likely out battery here over the years. One was a broken barrel extension pin, allowing the barrel to rotate as the bolt turned into what should have been the locked position. It blew the gun and the brass to pieces. The other I think was a broken cam pin, once again blowing the brass and gun to pieces.
    Because as I mentioned above, the base of the cartridge wasn’t sized down enough. Wouldn’t fit in a no-go gauge.
     

    BCP

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    My gut feeling is bad brass/overcharged round, hopefully Beagle & Beagle take care of it.
     

    BJames

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    Yea man - all kosher. Just wanted to make sure it wasn’t coming off the wrong way. Not looking to bash DD or anyone for that matter here.
    You’re good, I don’t particularly like the attitude your buddy has, “DD will take care of me...” but I’ll leave it at that.

    I would be curious to hear what, if any, feedback the ammo manufacturer would have. I personally know a small, local to me, operation with exceptionally high standards and QC. They would want to know immediately if their ammo caused an event like this.
     

    BJames

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    Yea man - all kosher. Just wanted to make sure it wasn’t coming off the wrong way. Not looking to bash DD or anyone for that matter here.
    You’re good, I don’t particularly like the attitude your buddy has, “DD will take care of me...”

    I would be curious to hear what, if any, feedback the ammo manufacturer would have. I personally know a small, local to me, operation with exceptionally high standards and QC. They would want to know immediately if their ammo caused an event like this
     

    Rookie

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    So you have the fired/damaged case. What's the inside diameter of the mouth?
     

    JMcQ

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    An out of battery KB is not posable in an AR. The firing pin will not reach the primer unless the bolt is locked.
    Thank the lord
    I would have had a bad situation yesterday. I heard a click then saw the bolt was still a 1/2 turn from closed.
     

    reubenski

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    I'm pretty sure I've had an out of battery detonation from a proud primer that allowed the bolt lugs to juuuuusst get behind barrel extension lugs. When the the primer was detonated the bolt lugs slipped off and the bolt opened. I was shooting suppressed in the prone and heard the first half of the detonation and then it all escaped out of the ejection port. It was like a flint lock in reverse, except the what came out of the ejection port was more like an explosion. I rolled off the gun shocked. When I looked at the ejection port the bolt was open and a gnarled up piece of brass was in between the bolt face and the breech face. The bolt wasn't even close to being seated; about 1/2 inch back from the lead edge of the ejection port with the buffer spring pushing it into the brass. The brass itself inverted. The case mouth inverted and came through the casehead. It prolapsed. I know it sounds impossible. It took me a while to figure out what happened and dig the almost unrecognizable crumpled cartridge out of the star chamber. I unscrewed the suppressor and checked it for baffle strike. I went down and checked my target. Hit exactly where I was aiming at 200yds. Everything looked fine on the gun. No perceptible damage. Except the case.

    I see everyone talking about out of battery detonations on the internet. People claim with absolute confidence that it can't happen but I don't think they truly conceive all the scenarios that can lead to one.

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