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Rifle Scopes another viper pst goes down from 338 lm

6brshooter

6brshooter

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Oct 2, 2012
    2,701
    1,371
    Illinois
    My buddy's savage 110 ba just ate a pst. He wants to start reloading for it and not sure what press to use, so he dropped the rifle off with me to do some load work ups. He ordered everything to reload with other then a press and chargemaster. Loaded up some rds and it loves 90 gr of h1000 with 300 gr smk. Noticed when cleaning it yesterday that an external threaded collar that fits in the ocular housing was partially unscrewed. This collar is between the ocular housing and the fast focus. He sent it back for turret lube on lenses, only has 20 rds of 308 and 35 rds of 338 on it since repair. What are decent options in the 1000-1300 range?
     
    6brshooter said:
    My buddy's savage 110 ba just ate a pst. He wants to start reloading for it and not sure what press to use, so he dropped the rifle off with me to do some load work ups. He ordered everything to reload with other then a press and chargemaster. Loaded up some rds and it loves 90 gr of h1000 with 300 gr smk. Noticed when cleaning it yesterday that an external threaded collar that fits in the ocular housing was partially unscrewed. This collar is between the ocular housing and the fast focus. He sent it back for turret lube on lenses, only has 20 rds of 308 and 35 rds of 338 on it since repair. What are decent options in the 1000-1300 range?
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    FFP-used Bushnell HDMR's and SWFA 5-20's.

    SFP- Sightron, NF.
     
    Well i have 2 5-20 SS, 1 hdmr, 1 razor, and a 6-24 bushy 4200 ffp mrad g2dmr. I like the 6-24, have it on a savage/aics in 6 br. Glass is decent, love the reticle, little short in the elevation range but wasn't for sure if it could hold up to the recoil. My friend just bought a creedmoor off of me and could put the repaired/replaced pst on it, or trade it for a better scope mentioned . Right now i stuck a Sightron s3 8-32 on the creedmoor so he could have two rifles to shoot . The Sightron came off of one of my br rigs. I had issues last fall with a pst, it got sent back twice for a reticle that would cant when power was changed. They wanted to replace it but couldn't find one instock anywhere . Worked out a deal on a demo( never mounted) razor. Vortex gave full retail for my pst(799) towards a demo A razor(1350)=550 difference I paid. My friend is going to call them and see if that is even an option. Aimsmall, funny i just mentioned ur thread to him 3 days ago.
     
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    6brshooter said:
    Well i have 2 5-20 SS, 1 hdmr, 1 razor, and a 6-24 bushy 4200 ffp mrad g2dmr. I like the 6-24, have it on a savage/aics in 6 br. Glass is decent, love the reticle, little short in the elevation range but wasn't for sure if it could hold up to the recoil. My friend just bought a creedmoor off of me and could put the repaired/replaced pst on it, or trade it for a better scope mentioned . Right now i stuck a Sightron s3 8-32 on the creedmoor so he could have two rifles to shoot . The Sightron came off of one of my br rigs. I had issues last fall with a pst, it got sent back twice for a reticle that would cant when power was changed. They wanted to replace it but couldn't find one instock anywhere . Worked out a deal on a demo( never mounted) razor. Vortex gave full retail for my pst(799) towards a demo A razor(1350)=550 difference I paid. My friend is going to call them and see if that is even an option. Aimsmall, funny i just mentioned ur thread to him 3 days ago.
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    You mean this happened yesterday. ??
     
    The razor deal, no that happened last fall during harvest. That was my PST that time. My buddy is on vacation now so i called vortex just abit ago and talked to them. They obviously need it back for techs to look at before they would give any options. They assured me the pst line was built to handle this type of recoil. I mentioned ur previous thread on here and they sounded like this is some rare occurrence. I told the nice lady that if he gets a repaired or replacement PST back it would be traded for something that will hold together like a Bushnell or Nf. She said that would be a shame. Apparently sending shipping labels out at vortex is no big deal.lol. The razor was a gen 1 that i got. It is nice but there are things i like on my SS and hdmr better. Of course what i got the razor at i consider them equal in price. Not for sure i would pony up 1800 for the razor gen 1 over the SS or hdmr gen 1.
     
    A Razor is a great scope. Very rugged, heavy duty. It's FFP, unlike NF. I think that you get more for your money with a Vortex. Sorry to hear that you and your friends have had issues with them; I have three and have never had any problems.
     
    I would go with a nightforce. Those scopes are bullet proof and will hold zero through just about anything!
     
    Durability isn't as important when running an optic on a .223 or .308, but all bets are off with magnums and big bore rifles. I can't believe how many people I've seen haul $5000+ .338 and .50BMG rifles up to the firing line only to notice it's got a cheap scope mounted on it.
     
    6brshooter said:
    The razor deal, no that happened last fall during harvest. That was my PST that time. My buddy is on vacation now so i called vortex just abit ago and talked to them. They obviously need it back for techs to look at before they would give any options. They assured me the pst line was built to handle this type of recoil. I mentioned ur previous thread on here and they sounded like this is some rare occurrence. I told the nice lady that if he gets a repaired or replacement PST back it would be traded for something that will hold together like a Bushnell or Nf. She said that would be a shame. Apparently sending shipping labels out at vortex is no big deal.lol. The razor was a gen 1 that i got. It is nice but there are things i like on my SS and hdmr better. Of course what i got the razor at i consider them equal in price. Not for sure i would pony up 1800 for the razor gen 1 over the SS or hdmr gen 1.
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    That's funny she said its a rare occurrence. I emailed them yesterday with a formal letter explaining just how many people were reporting problems. I also suggested that someone from "high up" needed to get on the forum and address the issue. They emailed me back with Snipers Hide Vortex Debate as the heading of the email and said they would " pass it along". They know what's up
     
    Oh and I also talked to a very nice lady ( prob the same one) and told her my plans about getting a new one and selling. She didn't like that one bit and they sent me back the same scope! I have spent probably 80$ shipping these damn things!
     
    I've previously stayed out of the two threads irt PST's failing.

    I was one of the very few dissenters when the PST's came out and MANY of the fan boys attacked me for my dissension, some of them insisting they were two thousand dollar scopes for 800, and this was before most folks had them in their possession (launching problems).
    I feel that they are feature rich and Vortex has attempted to meet a specific demand, which I believe they have more or less succeeded in. They are a VERY attractive package.
    My first concern was when they initially announced that they would be made in the Philippines.
    Weaver has made a scope with very similar features, lacking the "zero stop", but the weaver is made in Japan and seems to be of higher quality (the clarity of the glass on the couple of 4-16 PST's were certainly inferior to the weaver 3-15 that I looked through).
    Secondly, the more features that you try to pack into a price point, the more that you have to cut corners elsewhere.

    Vortex has attempted to give budget tactical shooters everything, maybe they need to rework the internals a bit. They are responsive to our needs and have a scope for every budget.
    For those of you worried about the Razor, I think you have nothing to worry about, as they are obviously in a completely different class.
    Now, here is the rub, if you are going to shoot a rifle that costs four dollars per bang, why are you putting a budget scope on it?
    Spend three or four hundred more for a more robust scope.
     
    Aimsmall55 said:
    Oh and I also talked to a very nice lady ( prob the same one) and told her my plans about getting a new one and selling. She didn't like that one bit and they sent me back the same scope! I have spent probably 80$ shipping these damn things!
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    You must have really pissed them off. I had to send back a crossfire (original design) and they paid shipping both ways.
     
    6brshooter said:
    I mentioned ur previous thread on here and they sounded like this is some rare occurrence.
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    I'm not defending vortex specifically here but.... Some of you guys aren't understanding the big picture.

    When you sell tens of thousands of something, and a problem occurs to a handful of people, that IS considered a rare occurrence. They didn't say it never happened.

    Every product that is mass produced will have lemons. That's guaranteed. I've heard first hand stories of lemons with many high end brands. The difference is not all of them own up and are willing to go the extra mile to make it right.

    There's no conspiracy here. The less expensive the product the less they will be able to spend on keeping tolerances in line and possibly the more lemons. However as long as they stand behind their product, that's the most you can ask for.

    You bought a 800 scope that has more features and is almost up to par with many 1500 scopes. It's just part of the game, if you end up getting a lemon and need it serviced. The more that you guys put down their product and service and then drag their people to defend themselves on forums, the less likely they will continue putting out such great customer service and going the extra mile on future cases.
     
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    All the people that buy vortex products are not members here or arfcom or 6 br.com. How many go tits up on rifles that are owned by people never on forums. It is just as unfair to say 10s of thousands sold and only 5 people on the hide had trouble. Thats not right well how many people not on a forum had trouble? Vortex was good about paying shipping on the multiple trips made. As far as 4-5 dollar a rd, why'd he go cheap on the scope? Well he had the scope, thought it would hold up and liked everything about it. It didn't hold up so it is gone. It was sent back 6 months ago for droplets on interior lenses, in my opinion vortex built thia scope twice. They still can't seem to make it work, time to move on. Yes i know my razor is bitchin, wouldn't trade it. My 6-24 viper hs is a really nice scope also, on a 260. Personally if it was my 338 it would wear a hdmr or SS5-20 from the start. My friend has learned a valuable lesson, sometimes a hard lesson stays with u for longer
     
    6brshooter said:
    All the people that buy vortex products are not members here or arfcom or 6 br.com. How many go tits up on rifles that are owned by people never on forums. It is just as unfair to say 10s of thousands sold and only 5 people on the hide had trouble. Thats not right well how many people not on a forum had trouble?
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    But couldn't you say the same thing about every other company out there that you would be comparing them to? I would say statistically that ratio is pretty consistant across all brands of scope. If anything I would say a higher percentage of Vortex Owners are on these forums, because Vortex is a fairly new company and not aswell known as NF, Leupold, etc, but overall I would maintain it is a consistent percentage.
     
    timelinex said:
    You bought a 800 scope that has more features and is almost up to par with many 1500 scopes. It's just part of the game, if you end up getting a lemon and need it serviced. The more that you guys put down their product and service and then drag their people to defend themselves on forums, the less likely they will continue putting out such great customer service and going the extra mile on future cases.
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    I think this is a very good way to look at it. And a reminder that really hard kicking rifles may require more expensive scopes that otherwise don't seem to offer a benefit, except that they don't break after 100 rounds.
     
    timelinex said:
    When you sell tens of thousands of something, and a problem occurs to a handful of people, that IS considered a rare occurrence. They didn't say it never happened.

    There's no conspiracy here. The less expensive the product the less they will be able to spend on keeping tolerances in line and possibly the more lemons. However as long as they stand behind their product, that's the most you can ask for.

    The more that you guys put down their product and service and then drag their people to defend themselves on forums, the less likely they will continue putting out such great customer service and going the extra mile on future cases.
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    I understand your points, but respectfully disagree with a few of them. To begin with, if the failure rate were in line with similar competitive products, I think we would be seeing the same reports on those products with an equal frequency. Every one of these failures is almost identical, and occur under almost identical circumstances. I am not aware of any other quality brand/model of scope that has developed a similar record. Regarding them standing behind their product being the most you can ask for, I would agree if their scope was not experiencing a higher rate of failure than competitive products. If it is, then I would at least ask that they fix the design problem. There's a lot more at stake here than just the scope itself. I lost two months worth of load development and had to start back over from square one because I could not determine for certain what data was real and what was affected by a wandering zero. A similar occurrence could be a missed trophy on a very expensive hunt, or important competition, etc. Standing behind the product won't do anything to replace any of that. I understand it is impossible for the manufacturer to cover that, but the point is that a free new scope isn't going to replace all your losses, and most folks would rather avoid all that in the first place (i.e. they'd rather buy a dependable scope to begin with). Finally, I haven't seen anyone actually put down their SERVICE. I found it to be outstanding. However, I think it would be the kiss of death for them to reduce their level of service because of people filing legitimate complaints about legitimate failures. That would be crazy. If your product is failing under normal use, you had BETTER be willing to go the extra mile if you want people to keep buying it. I didn't take Aimsmall to mean that he wanted the Vortex folks to come here and defend themselves, but rather come here and see what folks in the field are experiencing and reporting about their products so they can take whatever action they deem appropriate.

    Just my two cents.
     
    Not necessarily.

    I would say that more people buy a $1000 scope than buy a $3000 scope. So you would expect to hear about more failures, if the ratio (% failure) were EXACTLY the same. And as was mentioned before, a less expensive product may well have a higher failure rate. Something has to give to meet a price point. But if the manufacturer stands behind it, and repairs/replaces, eventually you get a good one.

    Heck, at half the price, but two, shoot one, if it holds up, sell the second one, if it fails, you have a backup with the first one is being repaired. :)

    But like ANY forum (and I am on a number for a number of hobbies), you typically only hear about failures. And a LOT of the time, you are not getting the entire story. The poster has an agenda, and will seldom admit ANY fault on their part. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.
     
    Well it is foolish to think a pst at 800 is on par with a 1500 scope. In that price range u are talking hdmr ,ior, NF, mark4. Sorry but a pst don't even come close to warming those up. Just from glass, mechanics and knob quality. And if i or somebody else spends money to buy 2 pst for one rifle, well i'd just as soon buy a SS HD orHDMR and save 2-300 bucks and have solid scope from the get go.
     
    I have a Savage 110BA .338 LM. I have NF NXS 5.5-22x50mm / 0 Stop / 1/4" MOA / NP-R1 Reticle on it. I have over 1000 rounds down the pipe
    without 1 single incident from my NF. They make a very durable scope. Buy once, cry once.
     
    Pinecone said:
    Not necessarily.

    I would say that more people buy a $1000 scope than buy a $3000 scope. So you would expect to hear about more failures, if the ratio (% failure) were EXACTLY the same.

    But like ANY forum (and I am on a number for a number of hobbies), you typically only hear about failures. And a LOT of the time, you are not getting the entire story. The poster has an agenda, and will seldom admit ANY fault on their part. Not all the time, but a lot of the time.
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    I think when Leupold, SB, Premier, Nightforce, etc. have been out as long as they have, they have sold plenty more scopes than a relative newcomer (PST), even if he has a better price point, so I have to believe the failure rate for the new guy is higher. As for an agenda or fault - it's a scope, solidly mounted on a rifle. Unless you drop the danged rig off the roof onto the concrete, what kind of fault of the owner could there be? I know mine was treated with kid gloves, and experienced nothing more than normal recoil throughout its entire (short) life. The failure was documented by the manufacturer, and I can guarantee you I gave the full story. I certainly have no agenda, and I wish the PST had worked. I'd have a nice, working scope and an extra 1000.00 in my pocket that I had to spend above the cost of the failed PST to replace it with a Nightforce.
     
    haaaa, my PST developed a void or debris they called it on the warranty card. was shooting it on a 110 FCP HS 338 LM. ill be looking into a nightforce from now on or maybe the razor
     
    Just stick with Vortex Razor line and you'll be fine! Very different animal than the PST. Love my HD with the EBR-2B reticle and 10mil turrets. Being FFP still a good deal when compared to comparable scopes, plus same lifetime transferable warranty as their woeful PST line. You generally "get what you pay for in scopes, rifles and ammo". Buying online can still save you tons on the high ticket items unless Congress gets their way and starts taxing all Internet sales!
     
    Guess I'm just lucky my PST doesn't have issues. But it is what it is. A $900.00 scope. I can't really ask it to have a track record, or function like a $2500.00 NF. Havent had one tracking or zero issue, and every day that I use it I'm adjusting for different targets at different ranges. That being said I might sell it to get a NF lol.
     
    vh20 said:
    I think when Leupold, SB, Premier, Nightforce, etc. have been out as long as they have, they have sold plenty more scopes than a relative newcomer (PST), even if he has a better price point, so I have to believe the failure rate for the new guy is higher. As for an agenda or fault - it's a scope, solidly mounted on a rifle. Unless you drop the danged rig off the roof onto the concrete, what kind of fault of the owner could there be? I know mine was treated with kid gloves, and experienced nothing more than normal recoil throughout its entire (short) life. The failure was documented by the manufacturer, and I can guarantee you I gave the full story. I certainly have no agenda, and I wish the PST had worked. I'd have a nice, working scope and an extra 1000.00 in my pocket that I had to spend above the cost of the failed PST to replace it with a Nightforce.
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    Possibly, possibly not. Without sales numbers, we don't know.

    As for an agenda or fault, not saying anyone in particular, but it DOES happen.

    And what could an owner do? Over tighten rings for a start. Run the scope at the absolute limits of the travel. A number of things, including dropping the scope and not saying that they did.
     
    Seekins rings at 25 in/lbs on a egw rail that is bedded. Never dropped and in the middle of windage and has 15 mrad up, rail is 20 moa. Put a loopy vx3 lr 6.5-20 on it and finished load development. Best group was .408". 300 gr smk@2732 fps Es of 17.xx, SD of 8.xx. Good thing i had a leupold to sub out that tits up vortex. For the record, in case it was lost in the noise, I like my viper hs 66-24 and my razor gen1. Both are on a 6.5 cm&260, i know they will hold up just fine.
     
    I love how people take several instances and equate it to a generalized theory. In that instance I've broken MULTIPLE US Optics and Bushnell so you should write them off as crap as well. I've seen several S&B broke, a BUNCH of Leupold, so those can go in the garbage...

    It's always nice to see people who purchase under $1K then when something breaks immediately want to write it off as trash and compare it to scopes double in cost which sell 1/2 as many. If people are going to throw out ratios then it would help if you had actual numbers to support your case. It's amazing how many people expect perfection in their equipment and then when it brakes they're quick to throw it out and write-off the company. If you keep doing that you'll run out of options real quick.
     
    _Nick_ said:
    I love how people take several instances and equate it to a generalized theory. In that instance I've broken MULTIPLE US Optics and Bushnell so you should write them off as crap as well. I've seen several S&B broke, a BUNCH of Leupold, so those can go in the garbage...

    It's always nice to see people who purchase under $1K then when something breaks immediately want to write it off as trash and compare it to scopes double in cost which sell 1/2 as many. If people are going to throw out ratios then it would help if you had actual numbers to support your case. It's amazing how many people expect perfection in their equipment and then when it brakes they're quick to throw it out and write-off the company. If you keep doing that you'll run out of options real quick.
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    If you were addressing my comment, my point was that the other brands you mention have been around a long time. It stands to reason you would see some of them broken over the years, as you have. The PST line has only been available for a very short time, and there are more instances of failures reported here in that amount of time than any other model of quality scope I'm familiar with in a similar time frame (if I'm missing one, please point it out). As for actual sales figures, I have no idea, but was responding to someone else who suggested that there were only a handful of failures out of tens of thousands sold. I know he was only guessing at sales figures, but I was offering a different perspective on how that might stack up to the longer track record of the other makers (also only guessing, but at least a logical one). As to comparing a $1000 scope to scopes that cost double, I think that IS the point - they just don't stack up (at least not yet). I think that if Vortex is paying attention to these discussions and want to look into this, they could very likely fix the reliability issue easily and then it will be an awesome scope at an attractive price. You seem to think people are whining. I think it's more about identifying an issue that seems to be too common, and bringing it to light so that hopefully it will get fixed. Then everybody's happy. Any new product can have teething pains, and I haven't seen anyone here "trash" Vortex or "write them off" at all. On the contrary, most folks seem quite happy with almost every other product they make. This is about PSTs on big magnums, and whether or not there really is an issue.
     
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    It's the "I just want to be in the game," budget-value-purchasing mentality. No telling what you'll see riding a Savage 110.
     
    Pinecone said:
    Possibly, possibly not. Without sales numbers, we don't know.

    As for an agenda or fault, not saying anyone in particular, but it DOES happen.

    And what could an owner do? Over tighten rings for a start. Run the scope at the absolute limits of the travel. A number of things, including dropping the scope and not saying that they did.
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    Agreed.

    On the last point, yeah - I guess there are some folks who can tear up an anvil in a sandbox. However, manufacturers usually know when rings were overtightened, or the scope was otherwise abused. My understanding is that Vortex will still repair or replace, but I'm sure they'd point out to the owner that the problem was not their fault. In my instance, I torqued my mounts and rings meticulously with a torque wrench to the manufacturer's specs, and I never got to use the turrets beyond establishing a 100 yd. zero from a centered reticle. That said, I know the folks at Nightforce aren't nervous at all about you running their scopes at the limits.
     
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    NateB said:
    Call me crazy but anyone think that this might be a batch issue?
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    sorry, brother, no such luck. I have owned several Vortex products over the last 5 years. 4/7 had to be returned. In fact, I have a Crossfire right now that will no longer give me any up in elevation although the turret has 12 minutes remaining. Fuck sending it back and playing that game. I did that with two brand-spankin new Razors (yes, the ones you should never have any problems, and the same ones I was told were checked three times before leaving their facility). My plan is to shoot it and then try using it. You know, like that Nightforce ad/story? My crystal ball indicates that I will not have as much luck with the Crossfire.
     
    vh20 said:
    If you were addressing my comment, my point was that the other brands you mention have been around a long time. It stands to reason you would see some of them broken over the years, as you have. The PST line has only been available for a very short time, and there are more instances of failures reported here in that amount of time than any other model of quality scope I'm familiar with in a similar time frame (if I'm missing one, please point it out). As for actual sales figures, I have no idea, but was responding to someone else who suggested that there were only a handful of failures out of tens of thousands sold. I know he was only guessing at sales figures, but I was offering a different perspective on how that might stack up to the longer track record of the other makers (also only guessing, but at least a logical one). As to comparing a $1000 scope to scopes that cost double, I think that IS the point - they just don't stack up (at least not yet). I think that if Vortex is paying attention to these discussions and want to look into this, they could very likely fix the reliability issue easily and then it will be an awesome scope at an attractive price. You seem to think people are whining. I think it's more about identifying an issue that seems to be too common, and bringing it to light so that hopefully it will get fixed. Then everybody's happy. Any new product can have teething pains, and I haven't seen anyone here "trash" Vortex or "write them off" at all. On the contrary, most folks seem quite happy with almost every other product they make. This is about PSTs on big magnums, and whether or not there really is an issue.
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    I wasn't singling you out, but in response have you ever stopped to consider that the people with S&B, Nightforce, USO, etc rather than going straight to a forum and shouting "my shit is broke and they suck" instead simply employed the customer service and warranty? There are also likely 5x+ more Vortex sold than S&B, NF, etc. due to the price point difference and therefor it stands to reason that the incidents of breakage will for obvious reasons be less since less are sold? Anyone expecting a scope to stand-up or exceed a scope that's double and in some example triple the cost is an idiot. I also find it ironic that whenever people show up to bad mouth an item it's amazing how many of them have multiple friends all with the same product and same problem and think the same upper echelons are so much better, yet some of us are around all manner of products in the very echelons they speak of yet we never see the same issue and in fact do see others that break.
     
    Folks,

    are the new 2.5-10x32 FFP PST's supposedly built a little tougher ? I had read (SH possibly) that this model was designed to be at least Durable as a leupold MK4. Might be the case as no doubt some would use this on lighter larger calibre hunting rifles.

    In the description they talk about machined lock rings for and aft of the lenses' or something to that effect. I am not sure if this is the case with other PST models in the line up. Can anyone elaborate on this ?
     
    _Nick_ said:
    I wasn't singling you out, but in response have you ever stopped to consider that the people with S&B, Nightforce, USO, etc rather than going straight to a forum and shouting "my shit is broke and they suck" instead simply employed the customer service and warranty? There are also likely 5x+ more Vortex sold than S&B, NF, etc. due to the price point difference and therefor it stands to reason that the incidents of breakage will for obvious reasons be less since less are sold? Anyone expecting a scope to stand-up or exceed a scope that's double and in some example triple the cost is an idiot. I also find it ironic that whenever people show up to bad mouth an item it's amazing how many of them have multiple friends all with the same product and same problem and think the same upper echelons are so much better, yet some of us are around all manner of products in the very echelons they speak of yet we never see the same issue and in fact do see others that break.
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    With all due respect , the " upper echelons " you speak of are better. Hence the United States military adopting the S&B and the NF along with the Leupold. I've never heard of any military unit using a Vortex. There's a reason for this. I don't mean to be disrespectful at all. I just think some folks take this stuff to the extreme ...all because they have one and refuse to accept the fact that its fallible just like the rest but to a higher degree. Shit happens .... But as all the testimonials from have shown .... It happens more with Vortex (compared to the other tactical scopes in general) I sent mine back four times. Switched to NF and my groups mysteriously shrunk and my tracking is still spot on
     
    Aimsmall55 said:
    With all due respect , the " upper echelons " you speak of are better. Hence the United States military adopting the S&B and the NF along with the Leupold. I've never heard of any military unit using a Vortex. There's a reason for this. I don't mean to be disrespectful at all. I just think some folks take this stuff to the extreme ...all because they have one and refuse to accept the fact that its fallible just like the rest but to a higher degree. Shit happens .... But as all the testimonials from have shown .... It happens more with Vortex (compared to the other tactical scopes in general) I sent mine back four times. Switched to NF and my groups mysteriously shrunk and my tracking is still spot on
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    I never said the upper echelons weren't better, but just because the military uses it doesn't make it top shelf... like the Leoupold you mentioned. Yeah, I said it... Leoupold is shit now unless you dump buckets into a Mk6 or Mk8. Maybe you didn't actually read everything I said, but AGAIN maybe you should consider that people using brands like NF, S&B, USO, etc. simply don't whine about it on a forum every chance they get. And if you sell 1k scopes with 10 breaking/defective vs 10K scopes with 100 breaking/defective then who do you think you're more likely to hear about reliability issues? Both are 10% but obviously one will be more noticeable than another because one has a larger output.
     
    pc3 said:
    Folks,

    are the new 2.5-10x32 FFP PST's supposedly built a little tougher ? I had read (SH possibly) that this model was designed to be at least Durable as a leupold MK4. Might be the case as no doubt some would use this on lighter larger calibre hunting rifles.

    In the description they talk about machined lock rings for and aft of the lenses' or something to that effect. I am not sure if this is the case with other PST models in the line up. Can anyone elaborate on this ?
    Click to expand...
    Yes the x32 has a metal power ring and is much better clarity wise than my 4-16 but actual toughness I don't know. I don't toss my guns on the ground and abuse them on purpose. Its also on a 300BLK so not exactly an abusive platform.

    I had a new viper PA come to me DOA and the letter they sent back after it was fixed said they couldn't replicate my issue. I ran out of windage sighting it in a 100yds and was still 3ish inches to the right and also wouldn't increase magnification past 8x on a 6.5-20 scope. Magically everything works fine now. I don't really mind that it was broken only that they lied about there being nothing wrong with the original scope. FWIW I paid shipping their and they shipped it back on their dime.

    I will continue to buy them for low recoil systems but my 300WM will be getting a HDMR and when I eventually get a 338LM itll wear an NXS. Too much money tied up in the big calibers with each trigger pull to be chasing scope issues.
     
    I have the same problem when I mounted an IOR 3X18X42 on my 338 Lapua. It only lasted 60 rounds and the darn scope fell apart. Talk to Scott at IOR and got a replacement right away. Mounted the replacement scope and again, it only last no more than 60 rounds. The third replacement ended up in my 308 and resides there ever since with no issue. I told Scott that they have to strengthen the scope or include a warning in the packaging saying scope is not proof tested for 338 Lapua or bigger cartridge, mount it at your own risk.

    IOR did their part by sending me a replacement scope. I know the scope can't withstand the recoil of the big 338, and since I like the glass a lot, I did the most prudent things by mounting the scope on less recoiling rifle.
     
    _Nick_ said:
    I never said the upper echelons weren't better, but just because the military uses it doesn't make it top shelf... like the Leoupold you mentioned. Yeah, I said it... Leoupold is shit now unless you dump buckets into a Mk6 or Mk8. Maybe you didn't actually read everything I said, but AGAIN maybe you should consider that people using brands like NF, S&B, USO, etc. simply don't whine about it on a forum every chance they get. And if you sell 1k scopes with 10 breaking/defective vs 10K scopes with 100 breaking/defective then who do you think you're more likely to hear about reliability issues? Both are 10% but obviously one will be more noticeable than another because one has a larger output.
    Click to expand...

    I own 3 Night Forces , a bushnell xrs , and a Zeiss. For the $ I paid off the bushnell and NF 's especially , you bet your ass I'd be not be whining but fucking raging at this point in the game. Again I'm not picking a fight or trying to be a smart ass, I just think the people who you say are " whiners" are not whining but more or less just pissed and frustrated with the 95% of the good reviews people reported totally going to shit when real world things took that 949$ Ffp " best thing since penicillin" scope and opened everyone's eyes to its suspectabilty
     
    Aimsmall55 said:
    I own 3 Night Forces , a bushnell xrs , and a Zeiss. For the $ I paid off the bushnell and NF 's especially , you bet your ass I'd be not be whining but fucking raging at this point in the game. Again I'm not picking a fight or trying to be a smart ass, I just think the people who you say are " whiners" are not whining but more or less just pissed and frustrated with the 95% of the good reviews people reported totally going to shit when real world things took that 949$ Ffp " best thing since penicillin" scope and opened everyone's eyes to its suspectabilty
    Click to expand...

    We gonna start listing off everything we've owned now, lol? I've literally had 2 USO's worth $2-3K both brake. Did I immediately get online and start telling everyone how crappy their scopes are? I've broken Bushnells, Vortex, Leica, Badger, rifles worth $3K+ and who knows what else. Ask anyone in my circle and they'll tell you if you want to see something brake just let me use it. Everything breaks at some point or another. It's one thing to be frustrated and complain, but it's entirely different when someone starts making a broad generalization based upon their limited experience with different products or one particular product and basing said frustration on a comparison to a product that is 2-3x the price. Those same people wouldn't write-off S&B or Nightforce if the same thing happened and make a public outcry. You want to get into semantics over me calling some of them "whiners" go ahead. So let's take an alternative approach... Do you want to know how many people I see on a daily basis who mount scopes improperly and then claim a product is crap when it's broken? Or how about the people that buy $1k+ scopes then mount them in shitty $25 rings on even shittier 2 piece bases that aren't lined up? Of course you ask any of them and they'll tell you they've been mounting scopes for 100+ years blah blah blah... and they never had a problem with their high end scope that had a 34 or 35mm tube with thicker walls and was less prone to the errors of stupid people mounting them. It never ceases to amaze me how when someone says they've broke a S&B or NF it's somehow the users fault, but if it's a "cheap" Vortex then it's all the scopes fault.

    BTW... a little info for the masses. I had the not so distinct pleasure of listening to a training meeting put on by good ole Leuopold where their not so bright Rep said that 98% of the scopes they get back there's nothing wrong with it. Yeah... that's great customer service.
     
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