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Any Lawyers Here?

kthomas

kthomas

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Jun 17, 2009
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Tucson, AZ
I recently left the O&G industry as chronicled in another thread, and I'm looking to pivot into a new industry. The wife and I were recently discussing the possibility of me going into law, honestly she was the one that keyed me into this idea and I have to say that I'm intrigued.

I'm in Tucson AZ, and there's a good university local to me (University of Arizona), and apparently they have a good law school. Constitutional law has piqued my interest, which they rank high in. Talking with one of the admissions counselors, he suggested I look at a Masters of Legal Studies since I already have a Bachelors of Science in Engineering, however I'm not really aware of what career prospects that would bring me. I'm still in the process of talking with the admissions counselors and finding out what may be a good fit for me, if I decide to pursue this route.

Anyways, I'm curious to hear from real lawyers (or those with Masters of Legal Studies) about their careers, what they do and the job satisfaction (or lack thereof) that comes with it.
 
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My construction lawyer charges $400.00/Hr last case we had I paid him 300K , he made more profit then I did on the case. When you have to call a lawyer over business dealings you already lost. You become an automatic 3-5 year billable to the lawyer. The only time you need a lawyer is when your charged with capital murder.
 
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I don't know anything about the law field but as with anything consider the cost of the degree and the return on your investment after you finish. Maybe contact local law society ? Or in contact with a local attorney, they may have a pulse of the local job market and salaries
 
My wife attended UofA law and has been in practice for 14 years. She works a private practice doing contract issues, estate planning, and some municipal law. The law she practices is clean and quality of life is good. I’m certain she could make far more money whoring herself out to some big firm working 80 hours per week, but we’re happy with the way things are.

The D said:
If you do pursue a career in law, follow this guys lead. He’s awesome

Judge Andrew Napolitano – Judging Freedom

www.judgenap.com www.judgenap.com
Click to expand...

My wife can’t stand this guy’s legal opinions, it’s been a long time since he was practicing. The older and thinner he gets the farther towards the left he slides.
 
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thestoicmarcusaurelius said:
That is a complicated case. I was going to say, I haven't seen a construction defect case take that long unless it was a condo complex case involving hundreds of units. Don't have experience with the contract litigation side of things. Sounds like your guy did a good job if you were the general and there wasn't a judgment against you though. I was only asking because it's pretty rare for a general not to have insurance coverage in a construction defect case.
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It was a public project at 4.5 mil and worked up 1.2mil in change order work. Arbitrator wrote a report favorable to us within months which was enough to resolve the issues. The County uses a Lawyer which talks to our lawyer after three years of bullshit which both lawyers are billing monthly know that not much is left in a settlement decide to resolve the case. We go out of our way to resolve all issues with the Owner as possible to avoid using a lawyer. Doesn't even matter if your right in your stance with a ton of paper work, its about you had to hire legal counsel so they have a process which they follow regardless. They don't wear expensive suits and drive expensive cars because they resolved the conflict in the first week.
 
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True story
Engineer that worked for me was convinced by his wife to go to law school to make "more money". While he was working his ass off in UT Law school and working for me, she was sleeping with half of the lawyers at the firm she worked at (she wasn't a lawyer). When he graduated, he found out, she divorced him, took most everything, and she moved on to a high price lawyer. He quit his engineering job, moved to San Francisco to live in his dad's house (died in a plane crash) overlooking SF Bay building fences for rich people.
Good luck.
 
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I don't have much use for lawyers, but .........

sue-me.jpg
 
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First, not all lawyers are horrible people as mentioned/joked here.

Second, Constitutional Law is a fairly LARGE field especially due to terminations of job statuses...ie Due Process, Whistle Blower etc... dont limit yourself to one or two areas of law. We do criminal, federal defense appointed, contracts, constitutional, family and some other areas. It takes a while to get the paperwork down and you have to LOvE to read/research and write.

I would look at the law schools in your area. Tuition may be a big hurdle for you. East coast schools run around $175k for full 3 yr tuition/books etc.

Once the school is located and money has been factored in. See their requirements for entrance. Take a look at LSAT prep courses and manuals. In most cases you will need a fairly decent score to obtain admission.
 
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jrhtx said:
True story
Engineer that worked for me was convinced by his wife to go to law school to make "more money". While he was working his ass off in UT Law school and working for me, she was sleeping with half of the lawyers at the firm she worked at (she wasn't a lawyer). When he graduated, he found out, she divorced him, took most everything, and she moved on to a high price lawyer. He quit his engineering job, moved to San Francisco to live in his dad's house (died in a plane crash) overlooking SF Bay building fences for rich people.
Good luck.
Click to expand...
He graduated law school and still couldn't get the representation he needed to not lose everything in the divorce... :unsure:
Something tells me his life is a sad story
 
Mattrmvpd said:
First, not all lawyers are horrible people as mentioned/joked here.

Second, Constitutional Law is a fairly LARGE field especially due to terminations of job statuses...ie Due Process, Whistle Blower etc... dont limit yourself to one or two areas of law. We do criminal, federal defense appointed, contracts, constitutional, family and some other areas. It takes a while to get the paperwork down and you have to LOvE to read/research and write.

I would look at the law schools in your area. Tuition may be a big hurdle for you. East coast schools run around $175k for full 3 yr tuition/books etc.

Once the school is located and money has been factored in. See their requirements for entrance. Take a look at LSAT prep courses and manuals. In most cases you will need a fairly decent score to obtain admission.
Click to expand...
Who was joking?
 
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Understood.... but when you are truely in a place where you need a lawyer you will want the best no matter the cost.

I have been there and without my wife and her legal background i would have been destroyed.

Same types of talks....comments can be said about ANY profession however lawyers truely good ones can really help set others down a good road when things/people/employers try to destroy your life.

No one here without that type of legal background could ever defend themselves against several things i have seen play out in courts. The true knowledge, research and legal writing is not something you can youtube or should trust to someone that is not fully vetted. Its the reason some here have said they know construction or intellectual property lawyers charging $400 an hour. The work that goes into quality legal representation is way above the output level that most can comprehend.
 
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I have been a litigator for over 20 years. Here is my general take on things:

* I've had several friends who went to law school because of their interest in constitutional law, but all of them ended up practicing in other areas. Unless you want to practice criminal defense work or become a professor, con law is a very niche practice area.
* Most lawyers end up practicing in the same area as their first job, even if they took that job to pay the bills while they searched for an opening in the area they were originally interested in. In the end, they are usually happy where they end up.
* I can't speak for other aspects of the law, but litigation is a lot of work and a lot of stress. My dentist tells me that 80% of his patients that he treats for grinding their teeth in their sleep are litigation lawyers.
* You will like litigation if you enjoy learning new things in depth (business, economics, science, physics, medicine, etc.). To effectively examine and cross-examine people and experts about all kinds of random topics, you have to gain expertise in all of those topics.
* A law degree is not a ticket to the easy seven figure income train. There are easier ways to make a lot of money.
* Litigation is pretty independent of the economy. If anything, business usually goes up when the economy goes down.

If you want to talk, PM me.
 
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kthomas said:
I recently left the O&G industry as chronicled in another thread, and I'm looking to pivot into a new industry. The wife and I were recently discussing the possibility of me going into law, honestly she was the one that keyed me into this idea and I have to say that I'm intrigued.

I'm in Tucson AZ, and there's a good university local to me (University of Arizona), and apparently they have a good law school. Constitutional law has piqued my interest, which they rank high in. Talking with one of the admissions counselors, he suggested I look at a Masters of Legal Studies since I already have a Bachelors of Science in Engineering, however I'm not really aware of what career prospects that would bring me. I'm still in the process of talking with the admissions counselors and finding out what may be a good fit for me, if I decide to pursue this route.

Anyways, I'm curious to hear from real lawyers (or those with Masters of Legal Studies) about their careers, what they do and the job satisfaction (or lack thereof) that comes with it.
Click to expand...
If you have a bs in engineering, look at patent law. There is a severe shortage and it pays well! In the short term, you can get a credential as a patent reader. Also pays well, too. And there is a shortage.

We need more pro- 2a lawyers! Do it!!!!

Sir
 
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Generally the legal industry is not a ton of fun. Opportunities are highly contingent on lsat score, law school ranking, and what you do right after law school. Pay in big law is pretty good. The work tends to be boring and advancement is lock setup which is a drag if you think you are smarter and more ambitious than the masses. For most, law school financially only makes sense if you go to a very highly ranked school (T14 at worst and T3 is really where you want to be). To do the interesting con law stuff you generally need to go to Harvard or Yale, clerk for a fed circuit feeder judge, clerk on scotus, then move to a government position. I did the first two steps then decided I wanted to go make money. Incredibly competitive, very few spots, and no money.
 
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Mattrmvpd said:
First, not all lawyers are horrible people as mentioned/joked here.

Second, Constitutional Law is a fairly LARGE field especially due to terminations of job statuses...ie Due Process, Whistle Blower etc... dont limit yourself to one or two areas of law. We do criminal, federal defense appointed, contracts, constitutional, family and some other areas. It takes a while to get the paperwork down and you have to LOvE to read/research and write.

I would look at the law schools in your area. Tuition may be a big hurdle for you. East coast schools run around $175k for full 3 yr tuition/books etc.

Once the school is located and money has been factored in. See their requirements for entrance. Take a look at LSAT prep courses and manuals. In most cases you will need a fairly decent score to obtain admission.
Click to expand...
When he says he wants to go into “Constitutional Law”, I’m assuming he means arguing before the Federal Courts and SCOTUS, about whether duly passed legislation is constitutional or not. I was not thinking arguing termination, Miranda, and just about everything under the sun that could be creatively construed as ”Constitutional Law” since it is the Supreme Law of the Land. What does “Constitutional Law”, as a legal field, mean if it encompasses all law that touches on the Constitution, rather than specifically on the Constitutionality of legislation? My cop buddies say 99% of their cases concern the 4th amendment, but do we call all “Criminal Law” also Constitutional Law?
 
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How can you tell a dead lawyer from a dead skunk lying in the middle of the road?
There are skid marks in front of the skunk.
 
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I've got an engineering degree and have strongly considered patent law, enough so that I've spoken in-depth with a number of different lawyers about the idea.

They have all told me the same thing - there are too many lawyers. If you are able to get a good job you will make a fortune, but the number of good jobs available is 10x less than the number of people graduating and applying to them. If you haven't gone to a top-10 or top-20 law school you won't even be in the running for those opportunities. Patent law as a field is supposed to be much less saturated than general law practices, but the catch was that the type of degree you have in addition to your JD matters. Dupont won't hire a patent lawyer with a computer science degree, they'll hire one with a chemical engineering degree. Similarly Apple isn't going to be hiring a patent lawyer with a biology degree.

The advice they all gave me, at least for my specific goals, was to study and pass the patent bar before going to law school and work as a patent agent if it interested me. Gives you a taste of the action without the large time and financial commitment, plus it apparently pays as well as many patent attorney jobs since few people who pass the patent bar are interested in working the position rather than going to law school or working at a law firm if they've already finished.

If you know any lawyers, or your company has any in-house lawyers you could reach out to, I'd recommend giving them a call and seeing if they're willing to have a chat with you. Another good place to ask would be if there are any non-profit legal firms in your area, since that's how I got in touch with one of the people I spoke with. Turns out that most of the ones I've found give great advice and don't mind talking for hours about their job, the things they like about it, and the things they don't. There's so much I learned about the legal field that I had no idea about previously, so it's definitely an eye-opening experience you should have before going down that path. Even better when it's all done without a single billable hour, though it might cost you a bottle or two of their beverage of choice.
 
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Fig said:
When he says he wants to go into “Constitutional Law”, I’m assuming he means arguing before the Federal Courts and SCOTUS, about whether duly passed legislation is constitutional or not. I was not thinking arguing termination, Miranda, and just about everything under the sun that could be creatively construed as ”Constitutional Law” since it is the Supreme Law of the Land. What does “Constitutional Law”, as a legal field, mean if it encompasses all law that touches on the Constitution, rather than specifically on the Constitutionality of legislation? My cop buddies say 99% of their cases concern the 4th amendment, but do we call all “Criminal Law” also Constitutional Law?
Click to expand...
Since the Constitution deals with how the government can act, "constitutional law" necessarily touches on everything the government does. So lawyers that deal with the government in some way necessarily end up with constitutional issues being part of what they do. Aside from true constitutional law scholars, who are almost all professors, criminal defense attorneys are the most visible and numerous lawyers that deal with constitutional issues every day. There are jobs within the government and in political organizations that are also very much focused on constitutional issues, but those are few and far between.
 
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I am a Lawyer and have passed the Patent Bar so I can speak to some of what has come up in this thread. This is fairly stream of consciousness but feel free to ask for clarification:

1. No matter what you want to do, somebody has to be willing and able to pay your salary. Criminal defense attorneys always can find work because America has a never ending supply of criminals. The smaller and more narrow the field the harder it is going to be to make a living. Constitutional Law is pretty narrow and it leans towards teaching and some advocacy work. If you aren't a desirable demographic (female, gay, minority, and perhaps even handicapped) its going to be hard to get a full time teaching position and even harder if you don't have a degree for Harvard or one of the other top 10 schools. You also don't have a background or an "in" (clerking for a Supreme Court Justice) to help you get a Con Law job with a nonprofit or think tank.

2. The worst words that can leave your mouth in an interview for a firm are "quality of life". If you have any interest in life outside of work, stay away from a firm.

3. A law degree means very little; what makes you valuable is any expertise you have plus the degree. That's why leaving your engineering knowledge behind will be very hard.

4. Most lawyers don't make huge money. Depending on the state you live average pay might range from 90k to 160kish. A lot of people see big firm associate money (250K or so) and partner pay (600K to 1Mil+) and think that's standard. Associates work 80+ hours a week and partners are sitting on top of a big pyramid of associates (most of which will never make partner).

5. Patent work can pay very well and its a pretty small club since most attorneys are afraid of science. You may want to look at working as a Patent Examiner to see if you like the field. Work for the US Patent and Trademark Office for a few years to get trained and you can pretty much autopilot to becoming a Patent Attorney. Depending on what kind of engineering background you have (comp, mech, civil, etc.) you could be in very high demand. You may even be able to get an employer to pay for you to get your Law Degree.

6. Where do you want to live? If you hate the big city or suburbs your choices are going to be more limited. For example, I work in Information Governance and Cybersecurity at the moment and am pretty much chained to wherever you can find big busienss (usually major metros). Also, certain States have very hard Bar Exams (last I looked the California exam was calibrated to only pass about 35% of the takers). New York and California are the worst.

7. How many working years do you have left in you? Law school is probably going to run $150000 not to mention lost earnings due to taking 3 years off to get the education. It doesn't make sense to do all this if you want to retire in 10 years. If you have 30 years left in you it makes more sense. One advantage is you can work as an attorney into old age. You don't physically break down in your 50's like guys in the trades.

8. There is a glut of lawyers out there. This makes it pretty competitive no matter where you go.

9. Job satisfaction is going to depend on you being realistic in your expectations.

Good luck no matter what you choose to do.
 
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A lot of good advice in the thread, especially the post above.

my bit of advice is to avoid getting a Master of Legal Studies degree. You need a JD to practice (foreign LLMs notwithstanding). I’m not certain who an MLS is aimed for, but if you can’t access the primary job in the field with it it may not be worth the time and expense.
 
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That’s good advice. I can’t think of an application for a masters in legal studies in the US without a JD.
 
Most with a Jd that get the Masters utilize it to teach law at the college level. The JD does NOT credential a person to teach at the college level. Some have been grandfathered in the past.
 
Masters of Legal Studies is a bullshit program. Like a degree in political science.

Either get a JD and practice law or don't waste your time.

As far as a full time practice of Constitutional Law, that sounds like you want to argue cases before the Supreme Court. It's not gonna happen with a U of A degree.

If you want to litigate civil cases, prosecute criminal cases or defend criminal cases, you could do that with a J.D. from U of A, and make a living.

No offense, but your post has some serious misconceptions and misinformation. Better do more homework.
 
The largest section of the phone book is?
There's a church, a used car lot, a pharmacy on three of the four corners of every intersection and attorneys outnumber them.

Does anyone remember the definition of "is"?
 
I'm a second career attorney, 12 years working as a chemist and went back and got my JD when the factory closed. 22 years as a patent attorney in both a small firm and corporate settings. Much of the above information is close to my experience, especially Franko. Before you invest time and money decide what you want to get out of a career change and then see if a JD (not MLS) can satisfy your wants. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss.
 
Fwiw I don't think any of my professors at HLS had a masters. All but one had a JD and a couple had PhDs. Legal academia is a world of its own and getting a gig at a top school is incredibly competitive and political.
 
Current 2 year colleges and 4 year college accreditation mandates at minimum a Masters degree. There are PhD in law but a JD is not considered an academic doctorate degree. Yes... some are adjunct Professor under certain guidelines or grandfathered in. Some do fellowship teachings... but full time professors must meet credentials standards.

Some schools may have a little wiggle room but it is NOT the norm.

My feeling is i want Professor with experience through work and life. Those are the types i have working with me but masters level education is required in THE field you are going to teach. It is tough to get into full Time but well worth it if you are trying to teach the right way.
 
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