I had some sniper training while in the Air Force, and their weapon of choice was the venerable 7.62 Springfield Armory M21 (circa 1974). I just loved to train with this rifle. It felt so much more substantial when compared to the M16. Jump forward about 35 years and I found a M21 for sale on Gunbroker. There were many more accurate rifles out there for the same money, but I just wanted to have another M21 in my collection. Anyone out there have a similar story with this grand old dame’?
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Sure, I have built some replicas of the pre-XM21, the XM21 and an M21. Its an "old school" platform but I still like them. I even used my M21 at a vintage precision rifle match back in 2018. (This weekend I used my USMC M14 DMR replica at a vintage match, but that's another topic altogether).
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Yup, but not me personally using them. In my four years in the 1st Ranger Bn, the M21 was pretty much exclusively our sniper weapon. When we went into Grenada in Oct, 1983, our plt. sniper pulled off a 930m shot that took one of the Cubans off an AA gun. This was after we watched him and Spectre go around and around for about 15 minutes. So, yeah kind of a heartfelt feeling for the rifle.
After I got out and started shooting comps and comparing rounds, I started getting the .30hate going on. Other cartridges will just do so much more. So, my feeling about the M21 had sorta diminished.
There are a few threads on here that sorta brought me back around to liking it. The story of the development of the M25 in the 10th SF group by Tom Knapp(?) got me to thinking back when I saw the M21's we had shooting well. I had never known why they degraded so bad, but that thread here was a pretty good explanation of why. And, what could be done to help it keep it's accuracy. Steel bedding bars was how he did it.
After I got out and started shooting comps and comparing rounds, I started getting the .30hate going on. Other cartridges will just do so much more. So, my feeling about the M21 had sorta diminished.
There are a few threads on here that sorta brought me back around to liking it. The story of the development of the M25 in the 10th SF group by Tom Knapp(?) got me to thinking back when I saw the M21's we had shooting well. I had never known why they degraded so bad, but that thread here was a pretty good explanation of why. And, what could be done to help it keep it's accuracy. Steel bedding bars was how he did it.
Despite the M21 being declared obsolete by the US Army in 1988, a few thousand "product improved" M21s were developed from the late 1980s until the early 201Xs, comprising of various interesting configurations. Shown are a few flavors of DMR or M14-based sniper rifles from the late 1980s to the early 201Xs (from left to right: US Army Special Forces XM25, US Navy Physical Security Sniper Rile (PSSR), USMC M14 Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), US Army M21A5 (aka SEI M14 'Crazy Horse' rifle), and the US Navy Mk 14 Mod 2. Several other variants with the SAGE chassis were developed/deployed (USMC M39, US Navy Mk 14 Mod 0/1, US Coast Guard M14 T, etc) - but not shown in this sampling of pics. So some M14s soldiered on up until relatively recently (late 201Xs).
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2005 an Army Depot warehouse (I believe it was in Alabama) had over 2000 reconditioned M21s on standby for use. I asked our unit if we could requisition some as all that was needed were funds to ship them. I promptly received a "No" as they said we would receive some M14s in theater.
To my knowledge, they are still there waiting for some lucky bastards to requisition them... Maybe someday we will see them on CMP.
To my knowledge, they are still there waiting for some lucky bastards to requisition them... Maybe someday we will see them on CMP.
I suspect those were subsequently used as SDM rifles starting back in 2008. At least 5000 (and some sources say 6200) of the M14s in "condition A" in storage at Anniston, AL were subsequently sent to Rock Island Arsenal around 2008-2009 and re-configured into the M14 EBR-RI configuration as the US Army's Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) rifle in 7.62 NATO. I think the conversions were completed by 2011 or perhaps 2012. Here's an article on that program:
How the U.S. Army Builds the M14 EBR-RI - Guns and Ammo
The M14 EBR-RI has become a legend in the military community, and this was the only time a writer was allowed inside TACOM to document the building of these chassis-based M14s.
After each overseas deployment it appears that EBR-RIs were returned to Anniston AL, and they are no longer fielded. The US Army has replaced them with the modern/new H&K M110A1 SDMR rifle, beginning I think in 2018-2019. My understanding is that the M14s that Anniston refurbishes are now being sold-off via Foreign Military Sales (FMS). I know Estonia purchased some M14s in 2018-19, but not sure who the other countries that are getting them these days, but I think they are configured as the M14 EBR-RI. At this point the US Army will not field M14s again as combat weapons, but some are used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, CMP will never get permission to sell M14s, as the ATF categorizes the M14s as a machine gun (per the 1968 Gun Control Act). So like all the other old and obsolete military machine guns and sub machine guns, they eventually get de-milled/destroyed once it is determined these weapons are no longer potentially fielded for reserve purposes and thus don't need to be perpetually stored. (ie, WWII era Browning BARs, M3 grease guns, M1919 light machine guns, as well as obsolete Vietnam era M60s, M16s, M79s, etc- none of those obsolete small arms stored at Anniston will be sold to the public. The M14 falls into that bucket too).
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I want to thank all contributors to this thread. It has been quite an education for me. The M14 and M21 variants clearly have much history traveling with them. As I mentioned previously, shooting the M21 was just a lot of fun for me, and I really enjoyed my time in the Air Force. Thanks again everyone, you put a smile on my face!
That's got to be an economic/political thing. They have a niche, so why don't they use them. At least they aren't destroying them like Clinton and Bush Sr. did to the M14's (1.4 million). Maybe someday somebody will get to use them.
I did buy the M21 I saw on Gunbroker, and it was just a magnificent weapon. I shot it for several years, but I was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis in 2010 which greatly effected my hand strength. In 2012, I sold it to a good friend that was an instructor for SureSight based in Denver at that time. He was a former “long gun” expert with the Summit County Sheriff’s office, and he jumped at the chance to buy it. He probably shot it as much as I did a year before he bought it. It went to a very good home.
However, I just couldn’t stay away from long range shooting and just two months ago, at the well seasoned age of 70, I bought a Bergara B14 HMR with a Vortex Viper PST Gen 2 to get back in the game. Yeah, my hands still hurt a bit, but once precision shooting gets into your blood, you are forever contaminated!
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Well, de-militarizing weapons is actually a DoD logistics and standard DoD policy-related process. It is not political per se. Once the US Army declares something obsolete (like the M14 back the 1960s and the M21 in 1988), they are extremely reluctant to later reverse that decision. I heard that the leadership of the US Army was reluctant to allow the obsolete M14 to be deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan in the early-2000s, but relented due to the operational needs statements they were getting for an SDM rifle that could accurately engage targets out to 600 meters, which the M16/M4 simply cannot. This resulted in a lot of 'ad hoc' M14s with ad hoc optics, which was a problem, and ultimately resulted in the M14 EBR-RI program to provide a standard/supportable SDM in 7.62 NATO.
The fact is the DoD has destroyed or demilitarized millions of small arms that were developed and made during the 20th century (not to mention mortars, bazookas, cannons, tanks, trucks, ships and airplanes - and selling all that scap metal). By the mid-to-late 1960s the US began destroying its huge stockpile of obsolete WWII/Korean War era weapons, and that policy continues to this very day, with old/obsolete 1960s/70s era M16s being de-milled. It is not political or economic, its simply DoD policy. Here's an except from Bruce Canfield's excellent book on the M1 Garand (page 618-619)
The destruction of M1 Garands in the 1970s is sort of what spurred the creation of the CMP M1 sales program, which lobbied to sell the M1s rather then have them destroyed. (Previously under the DCM it was only one M1 Garand per lifetime, but under the CMP it became up to 12 M1s per year). However, the M14s are all in the same bucket as obsolete machine guns. This includes the WWII/Korean War BARs, M3 grease guns, Thompson submachine guns, old M1919 machine guns and obsolete 1960s era M60s, old 50-BMG M2s - none of that can be sold by CMP to civilians per the ATF's rules re machine guns and the 1968 Gun Control Act. Anyhow, I think remaining M14s are now being sold to foreign militarizes. I read the last unit of the US Army to use the M14 is the ceremonial Guard at the Tomb of the Unknown solider, and for other ceremonial events or parades like the West Point graduation, etc. The Navy and Coast Guard still have some too.
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So, what happened to the M21s that were there? Possibly still there for all I know. Guy I spoke to in 2005 said that they were completely reconditioned as M21s, not M14s.I suspect those were subsequently used as SDM rifles starting back in 2008. At least 5000 (and some sources say 6200) of the M14s in "condition A" in storage at Anniston, AL were subsequently sent to Rock Island Arsenal around 2008-2009 and re-configured into the M14 EBR-RI configuration as the US Army's Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) rifle in 7.62 NATO. I think the conversions were completed by 2011 or perhaps 2012. Here's an article on that program:
How the U.S. Army Builds the M14 EBR-RI - Guns and Ammo
The M14 EBR-RI has become a legend in the military community, and this was the only time a writer was allowed inside TACOM to document the building of these chassis-based M14s.www.gunsandammo.com
After each overseas deployment it appears that EBR-RIs were returned to Anniston AL, and they are no longer fielded. The US Army has replaced them with the modern/new H&K M110A1 SDMR rifle, beginning I think in 2018-2019. My understanding is that the M14s that Anniston refurbishes are now being sold-off via Foreign Military Sales (FSM). I know Estonia purchased some M14s in 2018-19, but not sure who the other countries that are getting them these days, but I think they are configured as the M14 EBR-RI. At this point the US Army will not field M14s again as combat weapons, but some are used for ceremonial purposes.
BTW, CMP will never get permission to sell M14s, as the ATF categorizes the M1s as a machine gun (per the 1968 Gun Control Act). So like all the other old and obsolete military machine guns and sub machine guns, they eventually get de-milled/destroyed once it is determined these weapons are no longer potentially fielded for reserve purposes and thus don't need to be perpetually stored. (ie, WWII era Browning BARs, M3 grease guns, M1919 light machine guns, as well as obsolete Vietnam era M60s, M16s, M79s, etc- none of those obsolete small arms stored at Anniston will be sold to the public. The M14 falls into that bucket too).
??? The CMP was created in 1903. I don't know about overseas sales, but a ton of M-14's have been re-activated/re-worked into 'theater' needed weapons.
And yeah, it's a political thing. A lot of soldiers were 'given' their U.S. Model of 1917's after WWI. Turns out not all politicians like civilians being armed...with anything. It doesn't matter if it's DOD policy or not. That is Government property paid for and owned by the public. The money you pay for a CMP weapon (many have been de-milled and sold) is basically an administration fee to cover the cost of de-milling and storage. Clinton and Bush Sr. each signed off on the destruction of the M-14's. It wasn't just a military decision.
I also know that a number of ships of battle are sold off for scrap as well as tanks, trucks, equipment of all types. On one hand it makes a lot of sense, no one is going to cruise the world in a 42,000 ton ship. So scrapping is a way to get some money back out of it. However, a lot of manufacturers in the U.S. stated that if all this equipment was brought home, they couldn't sell anything. So, trucks, and bulldozers got left where they last ran.
Aircraft were crunched up and scrapped as it was said, It would be too hard to ship them back here and store them. P-47's suffered the most destruction as they weren't the 'favorite' fighter. Yet, the inferior Mustangs were preserved and brought home. Imagine how Korea would have gone if we didn't have 2000 P-47's sitting as piles of cut up scrap on Okinawa.
Yes, it IS a political/economic thing. DOD works for us Civilians, they don't get to make their own rules.
I think Clinton allowed the creation of the CMP in hopes that killing the DCM would lead to the failure of the private run entity and that gun "stream" would be killed off hammering another nail into the 2A.
All he did was prove that government cant organize a circle jerk and the private business has thrived.
CMP desires to get out of the gun sales business and concentrate on education.
I wish they could get to a point they could build marksmanship parks in every region of the country.
My police academy class used legit M14s for close order drill.
The sound of $35,000 guns being dropped on asphalt is not unfamiliar to my ears.
After my class, circa 2005, the Army requested all the guns be returned - probably 200 likely more - and they put them back in service.
The academy uses rubber Garands now.
I think there is a lot of confusion about what is a true M21 - versus a rack-grade M14 that has been fitted with an optic, that is lazily called an 'M21' by uninformed observers, but technically isn't the same rifle. The M21s had a separate NSN number, and were built to a very specific standard configuration based on the 1968 AMU M14 National Match build guide, which was revised a few times in the 1970s. I think 1984 was the final update. This included a time-consuming process of glass bedding the action in a wood stock, fitting a NM barrel, trigger job, NM sights, unitizing the gas cylinder, reaming the flash hider to NM spec, etc. I doubt Anniston had M21s in its inventory back in 2005, but it does have about 1,000 of the old National Match M14 rifles (they do not have optics).
The original optic on the XM21 circa September 1969 was the 3-9x AR TEL scopes, which were replaced in 1981-82 with the 3-9x ART II scopes that also had an improved scope mount. My understanding is that all M21's were recalled in the early-to-mid 1990s and their optic systems were removed. Many of the rifles were de-milled as obsolete, or put into storage. Fortunately, the hundreds of original AR TEL scopes (circa 1969-1981) and the later ART II scopes (used circa 1982-1992/3ish) - were transferred by the Army to DCM in the early to mid 1990s - and subsequently sold-off by DCM in 1995-96 for relatively low prices. That is where mine came from, and pretty much all of the military AR TEL and ART II scopes on the market came out of the DCM (now CMP) sales from the mid-1990s. Thus, it was not possible for Anniston to have built two thousand 'M21s' in the 200Xs - as they no longer had the old ART II scopes used on the M21. These liquidated scopes are all pre-Mil-Dot, but current training doctrine is of course built around the Mil-Dot reticle. Here's my former M21 ART II scope, with case and DCM receipt from 1995.
Brief History: During 1969, Project ENSURE 240 authorized "up to 1600" XM21 sniper rifle systems to be made at Rock Island Arsenal, with the vast majority being deployed to Vietnam by 1971. The XM21 became the M21 as the ‘Standard A’ in 1972, and remained the standard US Army sniper rifle until 1988, at which point it was formally replaced with the M24 SWS. The M14/M21 was then considered end of life and they were de-milled or went into long-term storage shortly after Operation Desert Storm (circa 1991). Here's a sample poster of the M21 build, which included a reduced headspace value compared to the standard M14, the various bedding instructions, and the build process included the "M14" part of the heel to be grinded away and re-stamped/engraved "M21" to denote the change to the rifle's nomenclature (and it thereby got a new NSN: 1005-00-170-0300). A special U.S.Army training program existed back in the day for building accurized National Match M14 & M21 sniper rifles.
With a few exceptions, the M14s sent to Iraq as ad hoc SDM rifles in the 200Xs were rack-grade M14s (with standard NSN: 1005-00-678-9829) that had either the flimsy brown fiberglass stock, or a generic wood stock. These non-accurized M14s were pressed into service and fitted with a wide variety of odd-ball optics and odd-ball scope mounts. They came with only 1 magazine, and unlike the old M21 sniper rifles from the 1970-80s, they were not glass bedded in a heavy profile wood stock, did not come with a NM barrel, or NM sights, a tuned trigger, NM spec unitized gas cylinder, a NM spec op rod guide, or a NM reamed flash hider etc.
The only documented report that I am aware of regarding 'true M21s' that still had their original AR TEL and ART II scopes being sent to Iraq in 2004 came out of Ft Bragg, NC, reportedly from a US Army SF unit. (Source: Lee Emerson's reference book, M14 Rifle History and Development, Vol 1). They apparently had a very few in storage, or had kept a few for training/familiarity purposes, that were somehow not turned-in during the early 1990s per Army orders. Theses old M21 scopes lack Mil-Dot reticles that had been the standard used by the US Army since 1988 for sniper rifles, and thus it was very antiquated by 2004 training standards.
Per Army regulations, M21s were replaced with the M24 back in 1988 and I doubt any M21s were technically built as they were no longer a procurable "Standard A" item within the U.S. Army, but they did soldier on for a few more years, esp in National Guard units during Operation Desert Storm. However, a very small number of M14s that included a few M14 receivers that had been engraved "M21" were rebuilt by Smith Enterprises in the 2005-2007 period. They were initially called M14 SEI rifles (aka 'Crazy Horse' M14), but were later classified as an M21A5. Here's the link re my replica of that variant:
Replica completed of a US Army M21A5 (aka M14SE "Crazy Horse" SDM rifle)
Recently completed replica of a U.S. Army M14SE Squad-Designated Marksman (SDM) rifle, which was later designated as an M21A5 rifle (or informally referred to as an “M14SE Crazy Horse” rifle). I just got the barreled action w/ trigger group back from Smith Enterprise Inc (SEI). For anyone...
www.snipershide.com There is also the unusual M14 sniper rifle built by some US Special Forces units during the late 1980s/early 1990s known as the XM25 or M25 rifle, and that deserves it's own thread. Here's my replica and brief history:
XM25 replica M14 sniper rifle (circa 1990ish, as made at Ft Devens/10th SFG)
My replica of a U.S. Army XM25 sniper rifle project that began in the summer of 2017 is now basically complete. I just got it back from the builder, so I don’t have a range report yet, but here are some pictures and info for those interested in this type of retro-project. BRIEF HISTORY: From...
www.snipershide.com If anyone is interested in the full history of the 'Post-M21' period (circa post-1988), here's a long link on this subject.
Post-M21 sniper rifle development history - Army, Navy, and USMC sniper & DMR rifles
For anyone interested, this summer I did some research/outreach re some of the "post M21" type sniper and DMR rifles used by the U.S. military, and decided to write-up a quick chronological history of these various M14-based sniper or DMR rifles that were used by the US military from the late...
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This is my rifle, this is my gun....
Words that you would never hope to hear your dentist say just as your nitrous takes effect.
I think there is a lot of confusion about what is a true M21 - versus a rack-grade M14 that has been fitted with an optic, that is lazily called an 'M21' by uninformed observers, but technically isn't. The M21s had a separate NSN number were built to a specific standard configuration based on the 1968 AMU M14 build guide, which was revised a few times in the 1970s. This included a time-consuming process of glass bedding the stock, fitting a NM barrel, trigger job, NM sights, etc. WIth a few exceptions, the M14s sent to Iraq as ad hoc SDM rifles in the 200Xs were rack-grade M14s (with standard M14 NSN) fitted with a wide variety of optics and mounts.
My understanding is that all M21's were recalled in the early-to-mid 1990s and their optic systems were removed. Many of the rifles were de-milled as obsolete, or put into storage. To the best of my knowledge the hundreds of original M21 scopes, the AR TEL scopes (circa 1969-1981) and the later ART II scopes (used circa 1982-1992/3ish) were transferred to DCM in the early to mid 1990s and subsequently sold-off by DCM in 1995-96. That is were mine came from., and pretty much all of the military AR TEL and ART II scopes on the market came out of the DCM (now CMP) sales from the mid-1990s.
The only documented report of 'true M21s' that still had their original AR TEL and ART II scopes that I have read about being sent to Iraq in 2004 came out of Ft Bragg, NC. (Source: Lee Emerson's reference book, M14 Rifle History and Development, Vol 1). They apparently had a few in storage or they had kept for training purposes that were not de-commissioned in the early 1990s per Army regulations. Theses old M21 scopes lack Mil-Dot reticles that had been the standard used by the US Army since 1988 for sniper rifles, and thus the troops that got these antiquated M21s in 2004 were likely quite surprised.
Per Army regulations, M21s were replaced with the M24 back in 1988 and I doubt any M21s were technically built as they were no longer an acceptable standard within the U.S. Army. However, a very small number of M14s that included a few M14 receviers that had been engraved "M21" were rebuilt by Smith Enterprises in the 2005-2007 period. They were initially called M14 SEI rifles (aka 'Crazy Horse' M14), but were later classified as an M21A5. Here's the link re my replica of that variant:
Replica completed of a US Army M21A5 (aka M14SE "Crazy Horse" SDM rifle)
Recently completed replica of a U.S. Army M14SE Squad-Designated Marksman (SDM) rifle, which was later designated as an M21A5 rifle (or informally referred to as an “M14SE Crazy Horse” rifle). I just got the barreled action w/ trigger group back from Smith Enterprise Inc (SEI). For anyone...
If anyone is interested in the full history of the 'Post-M21' period (circa post-1988), here's a long link on this subject.
Post-M21 sniper rifle development history - Army, Navy, and USMC sniper & DMR rifles
For anyone interested, this summer I did some research/outreach re some of the "post M21" type sniper and DMR rifles used by the U.S. military, and decided to write-up a quick chronological history of these various M14-based sniper or DMR rifles that were used by the US military from the late...
@Rudy Gonsior
had some great info on M25 here
Interesting M25 Info and Pics
So back in 2013 I was serving as a lead istructor at the 1st Special Forces Group Sniper Detachment, around this time the detachment was forced to move out of one location to another. It was durning this eviction that the "great purge" of the sniper locker begin. Long dramatic stories aside, the...
www.snipershide.com 