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any one have solar panels ?

B

black_ump

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 16, 2007
1,054
0
39
erie,pa 16334
as I come up with ideas for a house I want to build I cant help but think about solar panels and wind mills for power how ever allot of stuff i find on you tube and the internet seem phony so if any one has any first hand experience please chime in, my questions are as follows.

1. do you use only solar or wind power and are "off the grid" so to speak ?

2. what did the panels or mills cost you ?

3. did you install them your self ?

4. how often do you replace the panels/do maintenance on them ?
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I work with a guy sometimes overseas that is completely off the grid. He has wind/solar combo. He used a consulting company to design the system and then installed it himself since he is an electrician by trade. Said it was a large initial investment but is paying for itself as he goes. Depending on load etc you will need lots and lots of batteries to store for your night time use.

I have plans to go solar on my house and setup a backup genset to run off natural gas or propane.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

thanks for the info, I will def give that book a read, any more info would def be cool
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I live off the grid in Colorado at about 8500'. Your location will determine how many batteries, panels, etc. you require. I am using 6 panels, and 8 batteries on a 48 volt system. My wife, daughter, and I really don't worry about the power too much and use most appliances that you would find in a normal city house ie. regular refrigerator, dishwasher, microwave and whirlpool bath tub. We do have a generator and don't use it very much. When the sun is out I have no problems using all the power tools including the table saw. A welder would probably not be possible without a generator. If we made some kind of effort at conserving electricity we would probably never turn it on.
There are some things that you can't reasonably use such as electric blankets, some women's hair things, and incandescent light bulbs. Also, if you are used to running an air conditioner that will be a deal breaker.
As far as generators go just know that they are somewhat disposable and if used regularly for any length of time the gas to run it will quickly cost more than another solar panel.
If you set your house up for solar it is pretty easy to maintain a normal lifestyle. Gas Stoves, water heaters and clothes dryer are a must.
I would also stay away from wind generators. They will cost the same or more per watt than solar panels, and require maintenance. They are NOISY regardless of what the manufacturer says. Solar panels will last at least 25 years and require little or no maintenance. Batteries will last a really long time if taken care of, if not you'll replace them every few years or so.
Make sure to also get a good pure sine wave inverter rated around 4000 watts (Xantrex or Outback brands). They are'nt cheap but you get what you pay for. They can be had used as well. Also stay away from the modified sine wave inverters. They are cheaper and don't work well with computers and tv's.
It is easy to do the whole install yourself. There are lots of books about how to do it.
If you want to know more let me know.

Ken
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Ken,

If you don't mind sharing, what was your initial investment and do you have any resources you could point us to for tips and tricks?

I'll be looking at buying a house in CO in about 2 years or so. Depending on job location, I might be somewhere where going off grid would be easier.

I'm sure the info will change in the meantime, but, anything to build a foundational knowledge off is appreciated.

Regards,
Brad
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

As said above, location and how the home orientates to the sun, has a lot to do with cost, but the biggest thing is this.

If you are seriously realistic about doing this, bring the house out of the ground properly, ie do your home work for solar living, before setting the first batter board. The cost of seen solar is only part of the cost. The unseen cost, Frig's and freezer's that cost 2K a pop, storage tanks, heat exchangers, special wiring, controllers, ect, drive the real cost up that many will not tell you about until your deep into the project.

A solar Life style has many rewards but has major drawbacks as well, if you've been use to life on the grid very long. There are many folks that know how to do solar correctly, and many more that think they do.

Always, do your home first before hiring anyone. Yes it can be 100% done w/o outside help but, change's you cause do to lack of exp normally results in either work not completed or hazards.

By knowing whats in store down the road, you'll be better prepared to deal or except it. Solar living is not grid living, and payback is not short term. If your dirt is far off grid, the payback will be much shorter that just across a field.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Unless one is in a location which <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">is</span></span> off the grid, PV solar as a sole source of electrical power cannot be made to pay off. The costs are just too high.

A proper economic analysis must include the costs of replacing batteries periodically. Much of the data one can find for installed PV cost is for grid-connected systems, which exclude the cost of battieres, inverters, and associated system components.

Unless you're prepared to pay installed costs of more than $10 per watt, plus periodic battery replacements, better look elsewhere. And if that figure doesn't mean anything to you in terms of what your electrical needs are, better get a professional analysis of what a system will really cost you.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I think solar power, or any alternative energy source, has to be valued beyond sheer cost-effectiveness to be worthwhile. As people above have pointed out, it's very difficult to get your money out of solar power unless you live in certain areas and completely overhaul your house to live off-grid, and even then the payoff is seen years down the road. Beyond financial motivations, I think solar has two big draws, each somewhat opposite in the clientele who are interested in alternative energy. Serious environmentalists look to alternative power as a way to remove their carbon footprint, while survivalists seek alternative power for the day when the grid shuts down.

I think the key to deciding about going off-grid is doing a basic financial cost-benefit analysis, then deciding if you and your family's personal preferences for being either eco-friendly, or for being self-sufficient, outweigh whatever financial drawbacks exist for going off-grid. The decision has to incorporate the intangibles. If people are deciding whether to go off-grid because of cost-effectiveness, there is a very slim sector of the population that could make it work.

Frankly, making it work in my current locale would be fairly difficult. Nonetheless, I do feel if I were to move to a fairly sunny and warm place, I'd be inclined to build my own home to take advantage of alternative energy.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I have installed about 12 systems,some big (60 panels} some smaller 4 panels.

For info read the following books,,,
The Solar Electric House by Steven J. Strong
The Solar House Passive Heating and Cooling by Daniel D. Chris
Wind Energy Basics-
A Guide to small Micro Wind Systems by Paul Gripe

Also suggest getting Backwoods Solar's catalog. It is really a basic book with prebuilt systems,and a wealth of info.They are in Sandpoint Idaho.
As well as SEI{Solar Energy Institute} holds classes,sells books and can help.
As a tax payer take advantage or NREL { National Renewable Energy Lab},,look them up,welth of info.

Don't forget about a well/pump..find info from W.Dankoff.

First choose you operating system,,12v,,24v,,48v.
They all have their advantages,,and disadvatages.
12v can run "camper" lights.

Oh and Homepower magazine,who had an article some time ago about
1- a brownstone in downtown NYC
2-an article about a PA home
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Our total cost was less than 6000.00, however, I bought used inverter and panels. The batteries were around 1000.00 for all eight, brand new, with connecting cables.

There is a huge segment of the population that looked into solar a few years ago and have some very misguided notions of how it works now.

Our house is wired the exact same as a city house. 12/2 romex, normal outlet boxes, normal breaker box. From the breaker box the wire terminates at the posts on the inverter. We did not skimp on wiring anything because we're off the grid. There is something like 26 outlets in our bedroom alone.

We use a regular 18.2 cu ft GE refrigerator (uses about 41 watts per hour on average). The model we got uses the least amount of power for a full size fridge and was also the cheapest at less than 500.00

Regularly use the 1200W microwave, crockpot, etc.

We do have a Gas dryer, Water Heater, and cook stove.

Whatever you do, don't buy into the whole myth that you need a propane refrigerator. They are so expensive and unnecessary.

For water you can use a stand alone solar pump on your well that does not pump very fast. Set the pump up to fill a cistern tank and from there you are running a normal water system. From my cistern I am using a shallow well jet pump that puts out 12 gpm under pressure. I think that thing cost just over 200.00

When building I sited the house to take advantage of the sun - passive solar heating - so we use less wood and were able to mount the panels on the south side of the house.

The 4 solar panels are pointed due south, and will charge the eight batteries in a couple of hours.

The way the prices have come down on solar products lately it is affordable and sustainable as long as you do it yourself. Also, do your own research as far as system sizing, panels, batteries, etc.

The above being said if you look at the overall cost it is cheaper.

One time cost of panels as they are warranted for at least 25 years.

Inverter should last a long long time.

Batteries should last 10+ years, and at 1000.00 for a full string thats about 100.00 per year for electricity.

After seeing firsthand how affordable solar is I would never connect to the grid here.

Ken
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

In the previous post, you said you have 6 panels, and then you said 4. How many are they, and how many watts are those panels?

I've never heard anyone claim that batteries will last 10 years <span style="font-style: italic">in continuous service</span>.

Here are some relatively simple guidelines on solar system cost. Note the cost per kilowatt-hour of electricity, and compare those to what you're paying for electricity now.

If one is determined to live in a location off the grid, one may have no choice but to pay those costs - but it's useful to have an idea of what they are up front.

http://www.nmsea.org/Curriculum/7_12/Cost/calculate_solar_cost.htm

 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

So Witt what kind of batteies? How many? Which panels?
Do you have popane?

I have a very good friend,fellow Marine,been off grid for 30+ years.On a 12v system with 6 panels. All older,at least 15 yrs old. Passive heat,with 1 small Rinnai Radiant heater.
We turn his generator on to fill the 1000 gal underground tank
2xs a year for a total of 1 hr ea time.
He has at least 2500 gallons of LPG,refilled every 2 years.

Other systems I've done include a 60 2v battery bank in series parallel for a guy here who is offgrid in Gypsum.

Several remote sites for Encana,,and several more.
There are several ways to create a system.
Knowing your needs dictates the size of the system,as well as pannel selection.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?


How much did the guy spend on 60 2V batteries? I bet he could have built another house or two!

Sorry about the panel mistake, I was looking at the post above mine.

There are 6 panels at 180 watts each. If you figure on six hours of sun per day in the winter that's quite a bit of charge on the battery bank.

The batteries are were from American Battery in Pueblo. I don't recall the brand name, SunExtender maybe. They are a 6 Volt 225 amp hour battery just like the Trojan T-105. The way I understood the man in Pueblo all of the batteries are basically made at the same place and stamped with a different name?

I do think brand or warranty does matter when you get into the 390 amp hour and larger batteries. There are some out there that are crazy expensive.

There are a couple of people out here with batteries almost 20 years old. There is also a man out here that fried a whole bank of batteries in less than 6 years. As I understand it the depth of discharge of the batteries is probably the single most important factor in battery life. With a 48 Volt system good batteries will show a charge of approx. 49-50V and I try to never discharge them past 46V. My inverter will shut off power if I take them to 44V. Monthly checking of water levels and running an equalization charge will also extend life.

We do have propane for appliances but heat with a wood stove.

Ken
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Do you have more than one bank of those 225 Ah batteries? I'm trying to get a feel for the total storage capacity.

The problem with forms of renewable energy which are not grid-tied, whether solar, wind, or whatever, is storage.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I have the one string of 8 225ah batteries at present. The battery storage part is still somewhat confusing to me. Even with 8 225ah batteries I still only have 225ah's. But then they are never discharged to use all of them. On the other hand when the batteries are at full charge by 10:00am anything I do between 10:00am and say 3:00pm is being instantly replaced.
There are alot of sunny days here and the panels are still pulling in power on overcast days, though not nearly as much. If we had a couple of cloudy days in a row I would have to run the generator for a couple of hours to charge them back up. I also do use the generator to do the monthly equalization.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Well, your batteries are 50 percent discharged at 48.4 volts, which means your actual storage capacity to that level is around 5KW, which is pretty good.

Here's a table of battery capacity versus voltage for a nominal 12-V. battery, which you would multiply by 4 for your system:

Percent Spec. Grav. Volt
100 1.277 12.73
90 1.258 12.62
80 1.238 12.50
70 1.217 12.37
60 1.195 12.24
50 1.172 12.10
40 1.148 11.96
30 1.124 11.81
Disch. 1.12 11.80

If you run them down to 46 volts, that's 11.5 volts per 12 v. cell, so that will significantly impact your battery life.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Obama is getting them. Obama is planning on having solar panels installed on the white house in the spring of 2011, in an effort to go more green. Wonder who got the contract or where they are coming from? LOL
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is a huge segment of the population that looked into solar a few years ago and have some very misguided notions of how it works now.</div></div>

Then there are those that have put in very small an very large systems were grid could not be had no matter the cost. When your name and ability is on the line in an out of country, you can't assume anything. Also when <span style="font-weight: bold">O&M total cost</span> is not a running factor, it looks cheap.

Those (20-40)year 2v battery's could be had free years ago from most Telco's,(wired an wireless) do in part to EPA regs. The bulk were replaced by Gel-Cells which also has a good life span depending depth of discharge. Which is how most all battery's are life rated.

The energy numbers using Propane or D/C frig's/freezers vs std A/C units is where most throw caution to the wind. All properly sized systems are, no back up gen allowed, for 5 days of overcast.

What most don't get is the difference between life style's of on an off grid. If you do the math properly, (the cost of the same appliances on both systems) the rest of numbers tell the story. Ie take the same gas or D/C cold device an run the energy consumption numbers, vs grid cost, vs solar producing cost. Don't forget solar installed cost to include labor, shipping ect. Many forget to run the total numbers, vs the grid number, which normally starts at the pole or gas meter, installed for you by the grid folks.

The day is coming very soon where grid an solar will bump heads on KW/h <span style="font-weight: bold">generation only</span> cost but factor in up front and that push's that date way back when true numbers are used.

Power is not cheap, no matter the form of it your after,...now if Edison had got his way back when, things might be totally different today.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I was doing a paper to see if it was reasonable to charge a Chevy Volt (360 volts) daily from solar alone.
Turns out it is not.

But, I did figure that I could make a separate circuit in the house for when power goes out, put my web server on it, use an inverter, and keep the fridge and freezer on it.

That's 2 solar panels, 2x4'

Search on Solar Panels and do a LOT of research.

For those of us in the pacific Northwest where it rains a lot- just not cost effective to dump $5500 into something that will not be self sufficient.


Hell my solar sidewalk lights only work an hour after dark in the winter.

Colorado - up higher - heck yeah, more sun rays....

There's a map of the USA that shows your region, I am in region 5 I believe and 7-9 is optimal (Oklahoma, Texas etc).
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Remember solar is not just sun light, wind and moving water are your first choices for power generation. Low pressure steam from the waste heat off your wood stoves works well also.

A lot of folks are going back to steam and wood gas. Wood gas and it's off shoots require a little more eng depending on how much hands off of a system your after. The nice thing about wood gas though is it will power a std resip engine to within 70-75% of it's gas rating, and in this case cubic inchs are a good thing if your wanting big HP. A std two piston B&S or Kohler will give you 20hp plus at 3600rpm on wood gas. If your looking for long term, think 1800rpm or less twisting a DC generator.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Witt he actually got the batteries cheap,$50 ea.
They were in a warehouse at a place he worked.
We had given him qoutes on Trojan L16's{420 ah @6v) as well as Surette 2v batteries{1766 ah @2v}
He had the money to buy and build whatever he wanted.
It was 40miles from a grid,,and 65 acres +
Including a 12 kw generator from Cummings.

Best set up is a set of 8,,6v batteries in 1 series string @ 48v.
Whatever you do make sure to install a charge controller.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Gunfighter, The wood gas idea has always interested me. In fact I have an old ford inline 6 just waiting for a conversion. Any sources for plans that you are aware of?
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

Yes, plans all over the net but the best place to start is,

http://www.woodgas.net/ that site will lead you to places/things.

The inline Fords an Chevy's are tough old girl's that will work just fine, and inch for inch do better than Vee resip's.

For out in the boonies living, wood gas/Bio fuel is very hard to beat for power generation. Fuel is almost free and the power is there no matter the weather. I did a 15KW generation set for a guy many years ago using a 2.3 liter Pinto engine. Had to turn the engine 2400 rpm to get the HP required for the 4 pole Lima Mac-R we were spinning, used a team belt system that worked perfect.

Caution, do not even try building anything "FEMA" talks about, it's just std Gov. B/S,... that as a system sucks.

 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

hey guys sorry for letting this post fall but I had other projects going, so many things in the air, so many projects i just cannot keep up with it all

I am looking at the links that where provided, and I am curious is it better to do the batteries or is it better to hook up to the power company and use their power as back up ?

i seen a youtube vid oh about a year or two ago where a guy was hooked up to solar and the power company, his power meter turned backwards and he was selling power back to the power company, the point being he had no or vary little electric bill, and when he didnt produce enough power he could run off the electric company.

your thoughts while i read these links.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

It all depends if you want to be totally independant of the utility infrastructure or not.

What are your goals...privacy/cost reduction/warm fuzzys ?

The whole "selling back to the power co." is subjective, because the power co. may buy those KWH's at wholesale or retail rates.

Then theres the basic service charge usually $25-$40 to overcome.

If you use an inverter/no batteries with the grid backup when the power is out so are you.

This is in one part a saftey feature to prevent backfeed from killing lineman, like a transfer switch for a generator.

There are alot of salesmen and systems that promise " no more power bills", but I haven't seen them yet.

But what I have seen is some dissapointed people.

Like what is stated above there is a solar lifestyle and design that has to be met for success.


On a side note, one of the slickest systems I have seen is the use of a hydro-gen. system.

This was simplly an automotive altenator that was feed by a mountain stream flowing from an old mine.

This feed a bank of 24v golfcart batteries( how many,I can't remember) that went into a true sine inverter.

Hot water was supplied by a Munchkin demand heater.

For the tinfoil turban types. One of the things going for this system is there is no signs saying "I have electric" as a solar panel will.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It all depends if you want to be totally independant of the utility infrastructure or not.

What are your goals...privacy/cost reduction/warm fuzzys ?

The whole "selling back to the power co." is subjective, because the power co. may buy those KWH's at wholesale or retail rates.

Then theres the basic service charge usually $25-$40 to overcome.

If you use an inverter/no batteries with the grid backup when the power is out so are you.

This is in one part a saftey feature to prevent backfeed from killing lineman, like a transfer switch for a generator.

There are alot of salesmen and systems that promise " no more power bills", but I haven't seen them yet.

But what I have seen is some dissapointed people.

Like what is stated above there is a solar lifestyle and design that has to be met for success.


On a side note, one of the slickest systems I have seen is the use of a hydro-gen. system.

This was simplly an automotive altenator that was feed by a mountain stream flowing from an old mine.

This feed a bank of 24v golfcart batteries( how many,I can't remember) that went into a true sine inverter.

Hot water was supplied by a Munchkin demand heater.

For the tinfoil turban types. One of the things going for this system is there is no signs saying "I have electric" as a solar panel will. </div></div>

interesting... i think my main concern is just getting a lower to almost no power "bill" how ever ya if the power went out i would hope my solar panels would take over and supply me with power.

i dont want to rely just on solar because mainly i would be using lots of tools mill, lathe reloading equipment such as tumblers and such, hot tub/bath tub/shower and all of that
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

BU:
1. do you use only solar or wind power and are "off the grid" so to speak ?

2. what did the panels or mills cost you ?

3. did you install them your self ?

4. how often do you replace the panels/do maintenance on them ?


1,Totally
2. Purchased in 95 installed in 96 check todays costs
3. Designed, installed and maintain them myself. If you can wire a house you can do RE
4. Only been operable 14 years. Only maint is cleaning off snow.

Lots of misinformation in this thread. Solar and wind have provided me 99.9% of my power for the last 14 years. Wind in any kind of area that produces enough wind is high maint. Solar is little to non existent except the mechanical part of my dual axis tracker. A correctly installed fixed array should be a no brainer.
Batteries are the weak link. Expensive to buy lots of maint and a disposal headache. My first set lasted 10 years at 100% use and another 18 months to the person I gave them to because I could not gamble becasue we only get a barge in to replace them once a year. My replacement set (1055 a/hrs @48 vdc) were almost 11K and a pita to get here and install. If you take the time to learn how to maintain them and buy the correct type they will last at least 10 years. Lot of black magic in batteries.
Most of the failed systems occurr because the sales people(sunshine pumps) tell them how good its going to be and people do not research based on actual working systems. Very few stats available from non biased sources. Here is a photo link to my system.

http://community.webshots.com/album/51325081tYBJQs
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

UgashikBob,,one of my best friends has been offgrid for 30+ years,except for LPG every 3 years. Small maintence,H2O in batteries,brush snow off panels.
He also has a solar hot water heater. I have to turn on the cold water to take showers.As well a "family" off 112 Parks Hwy,,Forks Roadhouse area.

I still say buying a "Backwoods Solar" catalog is a great $5 investment for beginners.
http://backwoodssolar.com/

Also take advantage of what your tax dollars pay for.
Look through the National Renewable Energy Lab site.
http://www.nrel.gov/
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

We have 2400 sq ft or solar array. It was unbelievably expensive. I would look towards wind and micro hydro. Solar is good but thew cost ration is much more favorable if you look at wind and micro hydro. Unless those options are not available.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

BM:
There wasn't much in solar and RE supplies available when I started putting my system together in the mid 90's. Must of been really grim in the early 80's.
NREL is a good source for unbiased testing of small wind turbines. Look at NREL's power output vs advertised output before you buy. Also if you have enough wind to generate power you will have maintenance issues. I live in a high wind area and have a large pile of dead turbines to prove it.
Overall RE is about conserving power instead of throwing big bucks at ineffecient power use. It has its problems but nothing is as dumb as fossil fuel.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

U Bob you're right about the turbines,,he's 67 now and has 5 broke wind mills.He given up on wind,for now.

The thing to do is combine all you can. Passive solar,passive H2O hot water,,solar panels,battery pack,hydro,wind.
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

How about small gas turbine for electricity generation for home use?

Solar panels deteriorate over time, so you will need to take that into account when you purchase them. This is important because your batteries will take longer to charge over time and if not fully charge for a long period of time; they will start to sulfate. When they start to sulfate you will loose capacity and will find that you need to replace your batteries more often.

Stay away from AGM and GEL cells. These batteries gas over time and you will not be able to see the lack of electrolite with in the cells. This means over time you will loose capacity in your bank of batteries. Also, as per IEEE for every 10 degrees F over 77 F you half life the battery. Wet cells are better for solar applications. However, make sure your post have copper inserts.

You will need a combination of power sources. Wind is always a good one to have in combination with solar. If you do not have to get off the grid and just want to save on your bill solar and wind will do. Also, you can save money on replacing batteries.

Jamie
 
Re: any one have solar panels ?

I have bought a solar panel from one of the Texas Company and it’s been a month while I am using it for my cooking heating or cooking purpose. But as you can see that the dust has made solar glasses dirty and want to clean it , Texas solar panel company gave me cleaning liquid but it all finished now and want to know if you have something unique which can clean it by itself or a way to save it getting unclean again.

http://www.getsolar4less.com/
 
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