Anybody loading real heavy bullets for 9mm PCC?

[SanPatHogger]

Shot the AR9 a few times now with my 115 plated pistol handloads. It shoots good.
I've been told by a couple people and read several places that heavier bullets recoil slower. I shot a guys SIG MPX PCC, I think he said it was loaded with 147's, Damn that thing shot soooo smooth and almost no recoil.

So I bought some 158gr plated round nose to load up. I have CFE pistol powder.
Hodgdon shows 3.7gr - 4.2gr with a 147 XTP bullet.
I've seen guys running 165s with 3.5gr CFE pistol. Think I'll load up 5 or so at 3.5 and see what they do over the chronograph and make sure they don't blow up or stick in the barrel.
Basically I'm just experimenting to see if I like the 158s and see if the joice is worth the squeeze.

Anybody else shoot heavy bullets in your PCC?

I'm going to run it a Wednesday at the next USPSA match with the 115's. If I find a 158 load that works good I'll load a a couple hundred to run another match and get a real feel for the difference.

 

[SanPatHogger]

Loaded up 10 and shot 5 each from a a Taurus 92 with a 20lb recoil spring and the AR9 with a 10.5 barrel and an extended flash hider to make it 16 inch.
Very light recoil from both, the slide lock on the 92 did not engage. Tighter velocity spread from the 92 than the AR9.

 

[towerofpower93]

I ran the 160gr plated from Xtreme after I got a gift certificate off a prize table. They worked in all my 9mm guns, but I've since gone back to 147s now that I do the powder coated bullet thing to save a couple bucks and avoid the plating getting cut or deformed during seating and/or crimping.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Shot the AR9 a few times now with my 115 plated pistol handloads. It shoots good.
I've been told by a couple people and read several places that heavier bullets recoil slower. I shot a guys SIG MPX PCC, I think he said it was loaded with 147's, Damn that thing shot soooo smooth and almost no recoil.

So I bought some 158gr plated round nose to load up. I have CFE pistol powder.
Hodgdon shows 3.7gr - 4.2gr with a 147 XTP bullet.
I've seen guys running 165s with 3.5gr CFE pistol. Think I'll load up 5 or so at 3.5 and see what they do over the chronograph and make sure they don't blow up or stick in the barrel.
Basically I'm just experimenting to see if I like the 158s and see if the joice is worth the squeeze.

Anybody else shoot heavy bullets in your PCC?

I'm going to run it a Wednesday at the next USPSA match with the 115's. If I find a 158 load that works good I'll load a a couple hundred to run another match and get a real feel for the difference.

The Sig is not really a fair comparison as it is a gas gun and has inherant recoil reduction, much like a standard AR15. My PCC is one I built and is a standard blowback 9mm.

You need to tune your buffer system and not worry so much about the bullet weight. There are many options available, I have a Taccom T3 hydraulic buffer. I'm pretty sure it's changed now, as my gun is about 5 yrs and many thousands of match rounds old. Blitzkreig and JP Rifles are two more I remember when I built mine.

I am currently using 124gr. bullets, because we fell into a good deal a while back. I always pretty much loaded 115gr and didn't notice any difference. The difference in recoil between a tuned and a non tuned gun is quite dramatic.

I chrono all loads to around 130-135PF and no more. If you do that, make sure you chrono AND do load work up from your PCC. I have noticed at least 250FPS more velocity out of my PCC compared to a 9mm handgun. Mine has a 16" barrel and my PCC ammo will NOT cycle my M&P.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Hoser]

I tried 165s and 147s in my MPX. Didnt like it. It felt sluggish.

 

[SanPatHogger]

I ran the 160gr plated from Xtreme after I got a gift certificate off a prize table. They worked in all my 9mm guns, but I've since gone back to 147s now that I do the powder coated bullet thing to save a couple bucks and avoid the plating getting cut or deformed during seating and/or crimping.

I've been loading plated bullets for a few years now. I have not cut and of the pating off before. Maybe you didn't flare the case mouth enough? Also I use the Lee factory crimp die, so there is no roll crimp to actually bite into the plating.

 

[SanPatHogger]

The Sig is not really a fair comparison as it is a gas gun and has inherant recoil reduction, much like a standard AR15. My PCC is one I built and is a standard blowback 9mm.

You need to tune your buffer system and not worry so much about the bullet weight. There are many options available, I have a Taccom T3 hydraulic buffer. I'm pretty sure it's changed now, as my gun is about 5 yrs and many thousands of match rounds old. Blitzkreig and JP Rifles are two more I remember when I built mine.

I am currently using 124gr. bullets, because we fell into a good deal a while back. I always pretty much loaded 115gr and didn't notice any difference. The difference in recoil between a tuned and a non tuned gun is quite dramatic.

I chrono all loads to around 130-135PF and no more. If you do that, make sure you chrono AND do load work up from your PCC. I have noticed at least 250FPS more velocity out of my PCC compared to a 9mm handgun. Mine has a 16" barrel and my PCC ammo will NOT cycle my M&P.

I hope this helps you.

Similar results to me. My 158s run both guns but not to slide lock on the pistol. I also have the heaviest recoil spring available in it.
I have read about adding buffer weight and changing buffers to tune, but I'm not there yet. I just barelly loaded these heavy bullets.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Similar results to me. My 158s run both guns but not to slide lock on the pistol. I also have the heaviest recoil spring available in it.
I have read about adding buffer weight and changing buffers to tune, but I'm not there yet. I just barelly loaded these heavy bullets.

A heavier, slower bullet will reduce recoil a little bit. A tuned buffer system will reduce recoil a lot!

 

[SanPatHogger]

I tried 165s and 147s in my MPX. Didnt like it. It felt sluggish.

That is part of why I did this experiment. I've read soem people like a quick slightly snappier recoil thats done quickly, you can get back on target faster. Then some people like the slower recoil impulse of the 147 and heavier because it does not disrupt their point of aim and can control the gun and keep "running and gunning" through the cycleing.



Thanks to everybody who has input. Seems this is a very specialty thing that goes by feel, and some people like different things.

 

[SanPatHogger]

A heavier, slower bullet will reduce recoil a little bit. A tuned buffer system will reduce recoil a lot!

I also noticed my 115s were a bit faster than I thought. Probably lighten them up a little also.

Did you change just the buffer or did you change the spring too?

 

[Kadams1563]

I have ran several thousand 147’s though a CZ Scorpion and several thousand through 9mm pistols.

I wouldn’t go heavier then that. It slows everything down in the gun. I’d try 147’s and if you didn’t like them go 135’s.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I also noticed my 115s were a bit faster than I thought. Probably lighten them up a little also.

Did you change just the buffer or did you change the spring too?

Depending on what you decide on, the buffer is a system that shouldn't require changing the big spring. If you really want to get into the weeds there are different springs you can try, they are usually color coded. If I remember correctly I think they were like 25$ a piece also. The whole idea is to get the bolt to run out of energy before it bottoms out in the buffer tube. I found this out by accident shortly after I built my gun. I was slow firing with my off hand under the handguard supporting it, not gripping it. I was shocked at how much dot jump I was getting, then the buffer journey started.

One thing you will want to do is take the pinned weight out of your bolt if you go with the new buffer . I tried mine both ways and it was softer shooting without the weight, just make sure the gun still functions. You could try it with the current buffer and see what happens, it may still work and feel better, I never tried that with mine. The whole blowback theory is a weight and momentum physics challenge. You need enough force to run the bolt back far enough to eject a spent case and peel a live one off of the mag. I believe a standard bolt/buffer uses a heavier than needed bolt and a lighter than good buffer to ensure functioning. If you are using factory ammo, it hits you pretty good. If you noticed, a standard PCC buffer is twice as heavy as a regular AR buffer.

Today may be your lucky day................everyone and their brother has a Memorial Day sale going on. I just looked at a half dozen e mails from different places that sell AR stuff. One was from Blitzkreig Components, they have 10% off through today. Their hydraulic buffers are 125$ish before the discount.

My best advice would be to put a hydraulic buffer in and load ammo that feels good to you. I don't use factory 9mm because it is pretty heavy recoiling compared to my reloads.

 

[cas6969]

Just wonder if you can really tell in the long run. When I played with 160's(?) in the pistol for Production, shooting them side by side with 147's, I could feel the difference. Shooting fast doubles, my hits were more spread out with the 160s. But after the first two mags, I couldn't feel any real difference in recoil. Did that test a couple times, and it was the same. I only noticed the difference "cold". Yet the wider groups stayed cold or warmed up.

I toyed with the idea of using them up shooting them on the first stage only of every match, but in the end went back to 147s, I melted them down the 160s and used them to cast manly bullets.

 

[Yondering]

I have used up to 180gr (my own bullet design and mold) but a 170gr LFN style is my standard 9mm subsonic load. It's not softer than similar power loads with lighter bullets though.

The "heavier bullets shoot softer" thing is based in ignorance a bit, and in a true direct comparison it's completely wrong. Heavier bullets only feel softer if you're loading to a specific power factor, which has nothing to do with power; it's a momentum calculation that artificially gives more credit to heavier bullets. Recoil is a function of power though, not momentum alone, and if you load heavy and light bullets to equal power levels, the light bullet loads tend to recoil less, not more.

And in a heavy blowback action, most of what you're feeling is the bolt & buffer weight anyway. So just tune your PCC to the load you want to use, play the game and use those really heavy bullets if that gives you an edge, and just accept that being a blowback it'll always be heavier and recoil more than a gas operated action.

 

[towerofpower93]

I've been loading plated bullets for a few years now. I have not cut and of the pating off before. Maybe you didn't flare the case mouth enough? Also I use the Lee factory crimp die, so there is no roll crimp to actually bite into the plating.

I'd only get one with the plating peeled up every 300-400rds. I suspect it was a really short case that didn't get belled as much as the other cases did, which would lead to a little piece of plating getting peeled up on one side during the seating process.

I also use the Lee FCD, but with plated bullets that don't have a cannelure I'd set the FCD to just make sure the flare had been removed vice actually crimping into the projectile.

I intentionally fired one of the rounds where the plating had peeled off, and it hit the target like the rest of them, but I didn't like the idea of pieces of plating potentially coming off inside a suppressor so I moved to powder coated 147gr projectiles, which also saved a few bucks.

I'm not a finely tuned audio instrument, and my ears couldn't tell the difference between the 160gr plated bullets over 3.2gr of Bullseye and a 147gr powder coated bullet over 3.4gr of Bullseye, so I just go with the cheaper 147gr powder coated ones these days.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I have used up to 180gr (my own bullet design and mold) but a 170gr LFN style is my standard 9mm subsonic load. It's not softer than similar power loads with lighter bullets though.

The "heavier bullets shoot softer" thing is based in ignorance a bit, and in a true direct comparison it's completely wrong. Heavier bullets only feel softer if you're loading to a specific power factor, which has nothing to do with power; it's a momentum calculation that artificially gives more credit to heavier bullets. Recoil is a function of power though, not momentum alone, and if you load heavy and light bullets to equal power levels, the light bullet loads tend to recoil less, not more.

And in a heavy blowback action, most of what you're feeling is the bolt & buffer weight anyway. So just tune your PCC to the load you want to use, play the game and use those really heavy bullets if that gives you an edge, and just accept that being a blowback it'll always be heavier and recoil more than a gas operated action.

I assume you were referring to me and my " ignorance"?

I specifically mentioned power factor and the fact I shoot USPSA matches.

 

[Yondering]

I assume you were referring to me and my " ignorance"?

I specifically mentioned power factor and the fact I shoot USPSA matches.

No, I'm referring to the very commonly repeated claim that "heavier bullets shoot softer", which is ONLY true if the loads being compared are all limited to the same power factor. A lot of people repeat this claim, without understanding the power factor caveat.

 

[CK1.0]

If you’re looking to land ~130PF there’s lots of ways to skin that cat in a PCC, but depending on how you go about it, the different recipes can feel very different from one and other. Some guys like the slower push of 147’s or the “snappy-ness” of 115’s going faster, there’s no wrong way, it’s just what feels best to you?

As mentioned above, the MPX is its own thing: they’re softer shooting even stock, shooting cheaper factory FMJ, without doing anything at all, as compared to most blowback AR9’s… so it’s hard to compare bullet weights with that unless you’re shooting one of those too.

Personally, I don’t run a “special PCC load”, I just run my normal USPSA pistol load (3.4gr Sport Pistol + Blue 135TC = ~128-130ish PF out of a CZ S2) which ends up ~145PF out of a 16” barrel, but by playing with buffer stuff I can take it from where you can actually feel the bolt and all the buffer guts going back and forth (kinda harsh), to where it’s a total pussycat Nerf gun.

Short-stroking is the way IMHO, just figure out if $1.50-2.00 in quarters in the tube is all you need, or if a Blitzkrieg 5020/A5 setup is what you want: both work.

 

[sjmpcc022]

No, I'm referring to the very commonly repeated claim that "heavier bullets shoot softer", which is ONLY true if the loads being compared are all limited to the same power factor. A lot of people repeat this claim, without understanding the power factor caveat.

Ahhhhh, got it, all good!

 

[SanPatHogger]

So I ran the AR9 till it broke. Got 3 super light primer strikes in a row, thought the firing pin broke. Opened it up and didn't see anything wrong so I put it back together and shot the last stage, seemed ok.
The hammer is making a spot on the disconnector, seems like the bolt is running too fast. Being both the AR and the 92 are being driven too hard I will start by lightening up my load. Maybe to where the factory spring in the 92 is just enough for slide lock and the AR kicks a little less and still functions. I will play with some quatrters too.
Thank you guys.

 

[sjmpcc022]

So I ran the AR9 till it broke. Got 3 super light primer strikes in a row, thought the firing pin broke. Opened it up and didn't see anything wrong so I put it back together and shot the last stage, seemed ok.
The hammer is making a spot on the disconnector, seems like the bolt is running too fast. Being both the AR and the 92 are being driven too hard I will start by lightening up my load. Maybe to where the factory spring in the 92 is just enough for slide lock and the AR kicks a little less and still functions. I will play with some quatrters too.
Thank you guys.

After you take the weight slug out of the bolt, take the bolt stop out also, you don't need or want it.

Same as a 1911, slide(bolt) lock is not your friend!

PS............. If you are locking your bolt back on unloaded starts, you need to practice.