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Training Courses Anyone attend the Front Sight Precision Rifle course?

ReaperDriver

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  • Sep 5, 2009
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    Vegas Baby!
    I've been tempted to sign up and take this course. The description sounds pretty basic and I've been doing LR (1K+) rifle for a while now. I'm always trying to learn, so I don't mind if some is basic - but don't want to waste my time if it's TOO basic. I'm a lifetime FS member, so any course is free, but time commitment is always an issue.

    So.... any experience with this course??
     
    Did you meet the pre-reqs for this class? Front Sight is good for basics, but there's not a lot of nuance. It's like they start you on a basic drill and make them a bit harder as the class progresses. I did not qualify DG for the marksmanship class so I won't be doing the precision rifle course any time soon.
    I don't know how much of an effort this is for you, I bought a membership years ago-so the classes I take now are free, I'm in Cali so it's only a drive. If I had to pay full price and fly cross country, I think I'd look elsewhere.
    If you're fairly local and don't have to drop too much coin it might be worth it.
     
    Did you meet the pre-reqs for this class? Front Sight is good for basics, but there's not a lot of nuance. It's like they start you on a basic drill and make them a bit harder as the class progresses. I did not qualify DG for the marksmanship class so I won't be doing the precision rifle course any time soon.
    I don't know how much of an effort this is for you, I bought a membership years ago-so the classes I take now are free, I'm in Cali so it's only a drive. If I had to pay full price and fly cross country, I think I'd look elsewhere.
    If you're fairly local and don't have to drop too much coin it might be worth it.
    I live in Vegas, so it's just around the corner. I also have the lifetime membership so any classes are also free. I did get DG for the rifle marksman course last time I was there, so therefore qualify for the Precision course. I was just wondering if it was worth the class or if it stayed at a very basic level. It sounds like they only go out to 800 yds. Which is fine if it's also challenging.
     
    I live in Vegas, so it's just around the corner. I also have the lifetime membership so any classes are also free. I did get DG for the rifle marksman course last time I was there, so therefore qualify for the Precision course. I was just wondering if it was worth the class or if it stayed at a very basic level. It sounds like they only go out to 800 yds. Which is fine if it's also challenging.
    Save your money. Go see @lowlight in CO or in Utah when he’s there in may. Front sight is a joke.
     
    If you’re good on pre-reqs, are local and a member, I’d do it.
    I’m sure you’ll learn something.
    Hell, just getting the reps is a good thing.
     
    With ammo cost now, even if you are local I wouldn’t waste Ammo on that joke of a training place.
    Go see Frank.
    I obviously can't vouch for the utility of the precision class, but the few other classes I've taken there have been very good. I'm curious, which class did you take that you thought was a joke?
     
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    Listen to the greatest pistol shooter in the world, Rob Leatham, talk about the problems that their training methodology induces.
    I have taken several excellent courses and have never taken one from front sight because many reputable folks have always warned me away from them.
     
    personally I tend not to trash someone’s business unless I have first hand knowledge of it. Saying their training course is “trash” having never been there is a foul IMHO. Now had you said “I heard their course was trash from some other experts”, that’s a different story.

    just saying.
     
    I have reasons for my very informed opinion that I don’t need to explain to anyone.
    Uh, Ok. But I don't recall anyone asking you to explain it. I'm simply saying that calling someone's course "trash" based on 2nd or more likely 4th hand "I read it on the interwebs" info is a bit BS. <shrug>
     
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    1. Front Sight uses the same psychological methods as a cult does. They sell you a training "certificate" that allows you to have access to all their courses. They price this certificate ridiculously high, just like their courses. This makes you buy in emotionally when you buy the certificate. Since they artificially inflate their individual course prices, you feel like you got a deal when you buy their certificate. People naturally don't want to admit that they made a poor choice and spent a large sum of money unwisely, so they defend their purchase by hyping how awesome every course at Front Sight is and how good of a deal it it. The owners of a certificate have a limited amount of other certificates that they can sell to their friends for a "really good deal" through Front Sight. Thus it becomes kinda like a multi level marketing thing with a cult psych feel to it. "But the training is awesome" people will say.

    2. The training is not awesome. It may be awesome if you have never had any professional training before. Ever notice how those folks who rave about Front Sight have almost always had no other professional weapons training. They don't give any credentials of their instructors other than that they have passed Front Sight's highest standards. This is largely because no professional who is worth a damn wants to be associated with that place in any way. So instead of being able to recruit former SOF and competitive shooting champs they end up with guys who like shooting but who are not professionals and then build them up in house.

    3. Their training is WAY overpriced. Compare these 2 courses.

    Front Sight course with mediocre instructors, 2 day, and canned instruction. "If you are missing, you aren't focusing on your front sight." Never mind that many of your students are shooting high and that is precisely because they are trying so hard to focus on the front sight. It is also why many of them can't shoot truly fast. Anyway, course costs $1000

    3 day course, small group, individually tailored instruction, with Rob Leatham and Larry Vickers, 2 of the best pistol shooters in the world. $800 dollars and if you are missing the target they will individually assess you in depth instead of giving you canned advice. Rob's favorite answer is "It depends".

    If you don't want to compare it to the Vickers/Leatham course, compare it to those run by Pat McNamara (CAG), Bennie Cooley (world champion shooter), Kyle Lamb (CAG), Max Michel (World record holder/champion pistol shooter), etc., and you will find that almost all of them are similarly, or often cheaper priced for better instruction.

    4. Front Sight is incredibly douchy. Douchy in the same way a prep school kid who has never done anything and consequently feels the need to dick measure with you all the time. Do you know what the greatest pistol shooter in the world wants folks to call him when you go to his class? Rob. Do you know what the founder of Front Sight wants you to call him? Dr. Piazza. They market this arrogance as confidence to their unsuspecting and often innocently ignorant customer. Let us look at their website.

    "After your first firearm training course at Front Sight you will leave with skills that surpass 99% of the gun-owning population! This is no exaggeration. Once you've completed your first Front Sight course you'll discover that you've become THE self defense training expert among your peers and you will know you are better prepared than 99% of all gun owners in America."

    They also display this douchy-ness in their instructor qualifications. Let us again look at their website. "Front Sight Firearms Training Institute boasts the finest instructional staff in the industry. That's because to become part of Front Sight's elite instructional staff, an instructor must first successfully complete our four day, Instructor Development Program to the exacting and professional standards set by my example and supervised by our cadre of certified Range Masters. This is not an easy task. The criteria for graduation from Front Sight's Instructor Development Course are so far above the industry standard, that fewer than one out of ten participants make the grade in their first attempt." and "We require of our staff a mainstream, professional personal appearance. Tattoos which are visible while in uniform or a radical hairstyle will exclude you from consideration."
    Now this is incredibly stupid. First of all, if your instructors had any real qualifications, you would rely and advertise those instead of making up a bunch of BS quals. But since no professional wants to be associated with Front Sight, they have to take average Joe's and find a way to give them cool sounding credentials. As far as the appearance thing goes, yeah you probably don't want the emo chick with purple hair teaching, but most of the people who have experience using handguns for real in modern America are your SOF veterans. Most of these guys have tattoos. Therefore, Front Sight has once again done its best to run off some of the most qualified instructors.

    On their website they have their founder listed as:
    Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Founder and Director,
    Four Weapons
    Combat Master

    WTF is a combat master? Per the website, that is a "qualification" that the head wanna be there made up. I highly doubt that asshole has ever been in combat, let alone mastered it. He also has a bunch of attempted cool guy pics of himself on the website with different weapons. In reality all he has achieved in these pictures is to look like a 80's porn star who is fucking around with guns.

    To summarize, Front Sight has mediocre instructors, high prices, incredible arrogance and douchyness, poor training methodology, and a cult like mentality that they foster because they don't have the experience and creds in the shooting world to be able to mount and sustain an effective and professional marketing campaign.

    It is a rip off and a waste of your money. Now let the butt hurt whining by those who have been scammed into becoming part of the Front Sight cult commence.
     
    And you got all that from never having gone there and never having attended a course? Interesting......

    And no butt hurt at all on my part. I paid $250 for a lifetime membership during a promotion about 15 years ago that entitles me to take any course at anytime for free. Seemed like a pretty good deal at the time but I never got around to doing a course until a few years ago. Personally, I thought the training was decent. It was a bit on the basic side, but not bad. I thought the instructors were competent and for the most part very helpful. There was lots of one on one instruction if they saw someone struggling. I didn't find the vibe douchy at all. Are they a bit pedantic in doing it "their way"? Sure. Their course, their rules. They seem to have no lack of customers and most who have been back several times. Both times I've been there, it was packed to the gills and there were lots of smiles on everyone's faces at the end of each long day. People seemed to feel they got their money's worth and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters regardless of what the experts think.

    The only people who are butthurt, it seems, are those write long critiques of something they've never experienced for themselves and bitch about the price because they can't afford it. But lots of people CAN afford it and seem to enjoy it based on the numbers of repeat customers. Is it THE BEST training organization out there? That depends on what you want to achieve. I'm sure there are far better courses for niche defensive or combat training needs. I've attended other company's courses and they all fill a need for someone. FS courses are not for everyone, just like Lowlight's or Vicker's courses are not for everyone. But no one is putting a gun to your head to pay that much for a course or attend a course that you don't agree with their philosophy. Don't like, don't go.

    But the bottom line is unless you've actually experienced those things you write about first hand, it's a bit "douchy" to rail against something just because you read it on the internetz or heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy...... Just saying.
     
    I have not taken any classes at Front Site but have friends that were new shooters and liked the training they received. I have just finished one of Frank’s classes. What I think is that most classes are setup for shooters without a lot of experience and for those folks the classes offered have benefits to learning “perfect” practice. If you have good fundamentals and have been shooting for a few years they do not have a lot of benefit for the time and cost involved. I now believe that my money is better spend on ammo and time spent on dry firing concentrating on improving my existing skill set.
     
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    And you got all that from never having gone there and never having attended a course? Interesting......

    And no butt hurt at all on my part. I paid $250 for a lifetime membership during a promotion about 15 years ago that entitles me to take any course at anytime for free. Seemed like a pretty good deal at the time but I never got around to doing a course until a few years ago. Personally, I thought the training was decent. It was a bit on the basic side, but not bad. I thought the instructors were competent and for the most part very helpful. There was lots of one on one instruction if they saw someone struggling. I didn't find the vibe douchy at all. Are they a bit pedantic in doing it "their way"? Sure. Their course, their rules. They seem to have no lack of customers and most who have been back several times. Both times I've been there, it was packed to the gills and there were lots of smiles on everyone's faces at the end of each long day. People seemed to feel they got their money's worth and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters regardless of what the experts think.

    The only people who are butthurt, it seems, are those write long critiques of something they've never experienced for themselves and bitch about the price because they can't afford it. But lots of people CAN afford it and seem to enjoy it based on the numbers of repeat customers. Is it THE BEST training organization out there? That depends on what you want to achieve. I'm sure there are far better courses for niche defensive or combat training needs. I've attended other company's courses and they all fill a need for someone. FS courses are not for everyone, just like Lowlight's or Vicker's courses are not for everyone. But no one is putting a gun to your head to pay that much for a course or attend a course that you don't agree with their philosophy. Don't like, don't go.

    But the bottom line is unless you've actually experienced those things you write about first hand, it's a bit "douchy" to rail against something just because you read it on the internetz or heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a guy...... Just saying.
    I have that same membership I won about 15 years ago as well. I took a pistol course there and left at the end of day 1. To this day ignatius calls me every week with his telemarketing recording. I can only imagine a precision rifle course by them consists of watching art of the precision rifle and going to the range and having some guy call your shots.

    but I’m willing to be proven wrong. I just won’t waste my time or ammo. Both are slim commodities these days. Best of luck if you go.
     
    Too many comments like the one above are what I have based my opinion on, along with comments from world class experts. I don’t want to waste my money on crap.
     
    I have taken precision rifle classes at front sight.
    I have also taken a private precision classes at front sight.
    I have also taken class with lowlight & Mike @ mile high.
    yes I am a training whore... I drove 4995 miles to take classes w/lowlight & Mike, and god knows how many other miles i've logged to PTNC and other facilities...

    #1 thing I learned in all these classes is to practice and get more rep's in.
    I always learn new things whenever I take a class anywhere. different instructors bring different perspectives and experiences to the table.

    If you have the basics and your at the PRS series level of shooting will Front sight precision be boring...maybe.
    Will you learn something new.... Maybe
    Will you still get some great trigger time in Absolutely.

    Front Sight instructors may NOT be all tier one operators.... but that doesn't mean their instructors don't have a wealth of information to share with you. And if your really that skilled and advanced great...listen to what others are struggling with in the class. Maybe you can learn from their mistakes..

    Front Sight has changed the curriculum recently for their precision rifle...and I have not been there since pre pandemic Jan 2020.
    The front sight precision I attended, we managed to have a LOT of students that were way highly skilled so we managed to confirm dope for everyone from 100yrds -1k on BOTH steel and paper. Most of those guys in that class were easily hitting 1 moa @ 1k first shot.

    I've also been to classes where people had 0 dope past 200yards, and were struggling with the wind calls.
    During those classes I worked on what I needed to work on....but still had great range time.

    One of my most memorable moments at front sight and when the light bulb went off in my head was when the Front Sight instructor helped me read wind. Granted we had kestrels.. The lesson learned was what if your kestrel fails...do you have the ability to deliver on demand a 1 moa shot @1k yards under time pressure.

    @ReaperDriver let me know the next time you plan to take a class... always enjoy meeting other "vegas folks who go to FS" or as soon as I know when the next private precision long range class is (Most likely OCT) I'll keep you in the loop.

    -weasle
     
    Is it the best? Certainly not. I don't know if they can still be found, but it used to be possible to buy 4 day certificates for $100 on Ebay. The bulk of the people who take the class are people from Los Angeles who would not otherwise know anything about guns and they do a good job of getting them on the right track.

    If I lived in Vegas, I'd probably have purchased on of the discounted memberships just to get the trigger time. Top tier? No. pretty decent if you understand what it is and what it is not? Yup.

    And yes, I have taken a class there... 18 years ago.
     
    Is it the best? Certainly not. I don't know if they can still be found, but it used to be possible to buy 4 day certificates for $100 on Ebay. The bulk of the people who take the class are people from Los Angeles who would not otherwise know anything about guns and they do a good job of getting them on the right track.

    If I lived in Vegas, I'd probably have purchased on of the discounted memberships just to get the trigger time. Top tier? No. pretty decent if you understand what it is and what it is not? Yup.

    And yes, I have taken a class there... 18 years ago.
    If anyone wants to go to front sight just pm me...
     
    I bought a Front Sight membership through a co-worker for $200.00 MANY years ago, but never used it. I was surprised when I contacted them years later and they had a record of my membership that offered unlimited training at no cost- other than an annual $50.00 background check. I decided to give it a try.

    Since then I have attended a handgun and a practical rifle course. As others have said, the training isn't world class or for highly experienced operators like many on this site, but the instructors I had were proficient with most having significant military or law enforcement experience. I learned at each session, got some intense range time, and do not regret attending. I have already gotten my money's worth and more.

    I have also attended their Precision Rifle Fundamentals Course which is a classroom only, one day pre-requisite class that ensures those who plan on attending the 4 Day Precision Rifle course have the basic equipment, knowledge, and expectations required to succeed. Again, the instructors here were also knowledgeable and credible.

    The next pre-requisite is to a attend their 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship Class and attain a distinguished rating on the final test. This requires shooting supported and un-supported out to 350 yards. The test is tough and many experienced shooters have a tough time passing it the first time around (or at all). I plan on attending this class in the fall when the weather and Covid cools off.

    I have also seen all the negative info on the internet about Front Sight, but it does not reflect my experience or the experience of others that attended with me. The owner and some of their marketing communications are certainly controversial, but that didn't impact my time on the range. As always, YMMV.
     
    I bought a Front Sight membership through a co-worker for $200.00 MANY years ago, but never used it. I was surprised when I contacted them years later and they had a record of my membership that offered unlimited training at no cost- other than an annual $50.00 background check. I decided to give it a try.

    Since then I have attended a handgun and a practical rifle course. As others have said, the training isn't world class or for highly experienced operators like many on this site, but the instructors I had were proficient with most having significant military or law enforcement experience. I learned at each session, got some intense range time, and do not regret attending. I have already gotten my money's worth and more.

    I have also attended their Precision Rifle Fundamentals Course which is a classroom only, one day pre-requisite class that ensures those who plan on attending the 4 Day Precision Rifle course have the basic equipment, knowledge, and expectations required to succeed. Again, the instructors here were also knowledgeable and credible.

    The next pre-requisite is to a attend their 4 Day Rifle Marksmanship Class and attain a distinguished rating on the final test. This requires shooting supported and un-supported out to 350 yards. The test is tough and many experienced shooters have a tough time passing it the first time around (or at all). I plan on attending this class in the fall when the weather and Covid cools off.

    I have also seen all the negative info on the internet about Front Sight, but it does not reflect my experience or the experience of others that attended with me. The owner and some of their marketing communications are certainly controversial, but that didn't impact my time on the range. As always, YMMV.

    I was in the same boat with having bought a membership long ago but never used it. I had almost forgotten about it. Once I remembered I had it, I've attended both the 4 day Carbine course as well as the 4-day rifle marksmanship course. I got DG in the 4 day rifle and qual'd to do the precision course. I had both a lot of fun as well as learned quite a bit along the way. You are not going to win any 3 gun matches or PRS matches as a result of attending one of their courses. But imho, they teach good basic skills and promote the sport and discipline of shooting very well. I enjoyed my time and am planning on attending another course sometime this year if I can make it work.

    My gut says the vast majority of the negative internetz trash talk are from people who have never ever come anywhere near the place. I don't understand how you can comment on something you have no first hand knowledge of, irregardless of how many people you've read saying it sucked. Would I personally spend $2000 on one of their courses if I had to pay full price? I would certainly look around pretty hard before choosing as there are a lot of other excellent schools out there more geared to the experienced shooter. But my impression is that the folks who have paid full price feel like they've gotten their $$ worth and have come back for more. I would never put down any school who was promoting the sport and representing it well and bringing new shooters into the fold and teaching them safe and effective skills. We need more of these, not less. And Not everyone is cut out for one of Frank's PRS classes or similar. Horses for courses.
     
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    I was in the same boat with having bought a membership long ago but never used it. I had almost forgotten about it. Once I remembered I had it, I've attended both the 4 day Carbine course as well as the 4-day rifle marksmanship course. I got DG in the 4 day rifle and qual'd to do the precision course. I had both a lot of fun as well as learned quite a bit along the way. You are not going to win any 3 gun matches or PRS matches as a result of attending one of their courses. But imho, they teach good basic skills and promote the sport and discipline of shooting very well. I enjoyed my time and am planning on attending another course sometime this year if I can make it work.

    My gut says the vast majority of the negative internetz trash talk are from people who have never ever come anywhere near the place. I don't understand how you can comment on something you have no first hand knowledge of, irregardless of how many people you've read saying it sucked. Would I personally spend $2000 on one of their courses if I had to pay full price? I would certainly look around pretty hard before choosing as there are a lot of other excellent schools out there more geared to the experienced shooter. But my impression is that the folks who have paid full price feel like they've gotten their $$ worth and have come back for more. I would never put down any school who was promoting the sport and representing it well and bringing new shooters into the fold and teaching them safe and effective skills. We need more of these, not less. And Not everyone is cut out for one of Frank's PRS classes or similar. Horses for courses.
    Congrats on the DG standing at the Rifle Marksmanship class. At the Precision Rifle Fundamentals class, I heard some grumbling about this being a pre-requisite for the Precision Rifle Class due to its difficulty and testing of unsupported shooting skills such as off hand and sitting. What rifle did you use? I am torn between using my AR15 DMR type .223 rifle or my Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 CM.

    I don't think many Front Sight attendees pay the list price for their training of $500.00 a day, or more. Most I talked with had a membership like ours or got a deal and were getting a tremendous value. In fact, I don't know how they do it for the $$. I think a lot of people buy memberships and then never use them as we did.

    Agreed that Front Sight is not for everyone (as this thread demonstrates) and those with high level skills should look elsewhere. As you indicated, it does serve a need for basic training and it has been successful in brining many new shooters into the community which is a good thing.
     
    Congrats on the DG standing at the Rifle Marksmanship class. At the Precision Rifle Fundamentals class, I heard some grumbling about this being a pre-requisite for the Precision Rifle Class due to its difficulty and testing of unsupported shooting skills such as off hand and sitting. What rifle did you use? I am torn between using my AR15 DMR type .223 rifle or my Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 CM.
    I used a .223 Mk12 mod 0 clone. The few guys who brought bolt rifles were at a distinct disadvantage. And the couple of large frame AR-10 shooters struggled as well. So I think a .223 rifle is the way to go as long as you can make consistent 1 MOA hits out to 400 with it.
     
    Nobody pay $2,000 for a 4 Day class as listed on their site. I was given a lifetime membership and have attended 19 classes since 2017 free except for their background check annual fee. I've DG'ed defensive pistol, practical rifle, defensive shotgun and precision rifle. Then attended Frank Galli's class at Ft. Morgan, and got a hit on the 1 mile steel there. FS has quality instruction. Their individual coaching is good in their basic classes. But in their advanced classes the instructors tend to leave you alone if you are not having problems. The individual coaching and attention at Frank and Mike's class is superb.
    What rifle did you use? I am torn between using my AR15 DMR type .223 rifle or my Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 CM.
    Packfan, when I took Rifle Marksmanship in April, about half the class had AR's and the rest bolt rifles. Nobody DG'd because it was windy during the skills test. An AR can work if you go with the 70-77 gr. bullets. The 55 gr. get blown a lot. But if it is not windy, you might get by with the 55 gr. The 35 yd and 50 yd shots off-hand are the toughest. Practice these in advance. If you can handle your bolt rifle offhand, use this.
     
    Nobody pay $2,000 for a 4 Day class as listed on their site. I was given a lifetime membership and have attended 19 classes since 2017 free except for their background check annual fee. I've DG'ed defensive pistol, practical rifle, defensive shotgun and precision rifle. Then attended Frank Galli's class at Ft. Morgan, and got a hit on the 1 mile steel there. FS has quality instruction. Their individual coaching is good in their basic classes. But in their advanced classes the instructors tend to leave you alone if you are not having problems. The individual coaching and attention at Frank and Mike's class is superb.

    Packfan, when I took Rifle Marksmanship in April, about half the class had AR's and the rest bolt rifles. Nobody DG'd because it was windy during the skills test. An AR can work if you go with the 70-77 gr. bullets. The 55 gr. get blown a lot. But if it is not windy, you might get by with the 55 gr. The 35 yd and 50 yd shots off-hand are the toughest. Practice these in advance. If you can handle your bolt rifle offhand, use this.

    Thanks Slo cat.

    Ammunition is a tough proposition right now as I think Front Sight still requires commercially loaded ammo for this course. If I go bolt, I would use my Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 cm as it is manageable off hand. My MPA PMR Pro at 18lbs is not as handy. I am still leaning towards the AR though.

    I stocked up on 69 gr Federal GMM before all the madness and plan on using that. I have a hand load that is close that I am using for practice. For the 6.5 cm, I have some 140 gr Hornady American Gunner that should do the trick. Practice with the 6.5 would be limited as I am out of 6.5 reloading components and powder and have not been able to locate any.
     
    Thanks Slo cat.

    Ammunition is a tough proposition right now as I think Front Sight still requires commercially loaded ammo for this course. If I go bolt, I would use my Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 cm as it is manageable off hand. My MPA PMR Pro at 18lbs is not as handy. I am still leaning towards the AR though.

    I stocked up on 69 gr Federal GMM before all the madness and plan on using that. I have a hand load that is close that I am using for practice. For the 6.5 cm, I have some 140 gr Hornady American Gunner that should do the trick. Practice with the 6.5 would be limited as I am out of 6.5 reloading components and powder and have not been able to locate any.
    I personally would go AR. The guys I saw try to do that course with a Bolt really struggled. There are some timed stages on the skills test and a bolt really puts you at a major disadvantage unless you are a top PRS competitor type shooter who can run a bolt as fast as a gasser. A decently accurate AR/precision-ish AR were the top ten rifles in my class. Also, Bolt guns were definitely the outlier there.
     
    There is generous prep time on each individual shot in the Skills Test. At 35 yds. off-hand, its 10 sec., at 50 yds. off-hand, its 15 seconds. From then on, the prep time in generous for INDIVUAL SHOTS. A semi-auto then gives you no advantage, as the time allowed is for individual shots.
     
    Do they still have the dumb as fuck rule of no reloads? I got a free membership and was gonna try a pistol class until it said I can’t use my own hand loads.
     
    Do they still have the dumb as fuck rule of no reloads? I got a free membership and was gonna try a pistol class until it said I can’t use my own hand loads.
    Generally, yes. The one exception is the Precision Rifle class, where reloads are allowed. Another general firearm requirement is for 4.0 lb. triggers, except for Precision Rifle. When you consider their high number of students, many of which are first time shooters, these rules are understandable. But it is easy to fold in your reloads with some factory ammo.
     
    Generally, yes. The one exception is the Precision Rifle class, where reloads are allowed. Another general firearm requirement is for 4.0 lb. triggers, except for Precision Rifle. When you consider their high number of students, many of which are first time shooters, these rules are understandable. But it is easy to fold in your reloads with some factory ammo.
    Did they measure trigger pull for the Rifle Marksmanship Class? For the pistol and practical rifle check-in I did previously the guy just pulled the trigger and passed them- no guage involved.

    My AR has a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage which is more like 3.5 lbs total. I do have a Colt lower with a standard Geissele SSA which is about 4.5 lbs I could bring as a backup. It is a large pin so I would have swap in my stock which is no biggie. My Bergara bolt is probably under 3 lbs, as I am sure many others are, even hunting rifles.
     
    Do they still have the dumb as fuck rule of no reloads? I got a free membership and was gonna try a pistol class until it said I can’t use my own hand loads.
    Yes, but the only round check they do is on day 1 check in where they run a magnet over the bullets to check for steel cores. After that, you can run anything you want. Not that I've done that, of course ;). But I've heard about it happening. Just saying.
     
    Did they measure trigger pull for the Rifle Marksmanship Class? For the pistol and practical rifle check-in I did previously the guy just pulled the trigger and passed them- no guage involved.

    My AR has a Geissele SSA-E 2 stage which is more like 3.5 lbs total. I do have a Colt lower with a standard Geissele SSA which is about 4.5 lbs I could bring as a backup. It is a large pin so I would have swap in my stock which is no biggie. My Bergara bolt is probably under 3 lbs, as I am sure many others are, even hunting rifles.
    I'm trying to remember if they did. They definitely checked it on the practical rifle, but I don't recall whether they did for the Rifle Marksman. And same as of no use of a gauge. I think they are just trying to make sure the trigger is not some ridiculous lightweight breathe on it type trigger. I get why they do it, because not everyone there is seasoned and has had safety drilled into them from a young age.

    I honestly didn't find any of their rules limiting. Its a lot different having 20-30 shooters on the line to keep safe than it is to have 5 in more individual classes. So it makes sense why they do what they do.
     
    Do they still have the dumb as fuck rule of no reloads? I got a free membership and was gonna try a pistol class until it said I can’t use my own hand loads.
    If you don't want to attend a class because you won't shoot factory loads, I'll be happy to take your membership off your hands.
     
    At weapons inspection, they just finger check trigger weight. If it appears to be too light, they will run it back to the gunsmiths to weigh it with an electronic trigger gauge. I have a Geissele trigger for service rifle in my AR. In CMP service rifle the minimum weight is 4.5 lbs. But the Geissele trigger feels like 3 lbs. Twice they took my AR back to have it checked, and each time it checked out at 5.0 lbs. Ha! This was a couple of years ago. Recently, at Rifle Marksmanship, this same trigger passed their 'finger check' with no problem.
     
    Thanks. Hopefully the SSA-E will pass the "finger test'. I think being a two stage will help. While some flexibility on a "marksmanship" course would be nice, I also understand why they do it, especially on the pistol and practical rifle courses. Some guys have ridiculously low trigger pull weights and think that will help their shooting at the expense of safety.

    I also get the no reloads rule, again especially on the pistol and practical rifle courses. Everyone's proficiency at the reloading bench is different and shooting factory ammo likely eliminates a lot of safety and reliability problems and speed things up. Before "ammo madness", factory ammo in the popular calibers was pretty afffordable in the large quantities required for the classes.
     
    Do they still have the dumb as fuck rule of no reloads? I got a free membership and was gonna try a pistol class until it said I can’t use my own hand loads.

    No reloads for any classes except Precision Rifle. Also no Rifle or Trigger inspection for Precision Rifle