I have tried to work out some loads for my Tikka T3 varmint with the Hornady 80gr ELD-M bullets bit haven't had much luck with 8208XBR. Anyone work up a load for these that shoots well?
- Thread starter Rangerbob33
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My wife's Savage .223 bolt gun is deadly accurate with the 80gr Amax. Since Hornady is dropping the 80gr Amax and replacing them with the 80 ELD-M, I decided to pick up a couple boxes for load development. Sadly, no matter what charge weight or jump to the lands I tried, I could not get the new ELD-Ms to rival the accuracy of the older Amax load. I even tried jamming them with no luck. I decided to just give up on the ELD-Ms and search for any online vendors that had any of the old 80gr Amax left in stock. I scored 1000 more of the Amax to hold us for a couple more years.
The nose and ogive of the 80gr ELDs is more of a slender secant shape than the 80gr Amax. I wish Hornady would have just kept the old Amax shape and just put the non-melting tips on them. The 80gr Amax already had a BC that was better than any other 80gr bullet out there for the .223 and they sure screwed it up. It looks like we will be going with Bergers when our Amax inventory gets low.
The nose and ogive of the 80gr ELDs is more of a slender secant shape than the 80gr Amax. I wish Hornady would have just kept the old Amax shape and just put the non-melting tips on them. The 80gr Amax already had a BC that was better than any other 80gr bullet out there for the .223 and they sure screwed it up. It looks like we will be going with Bergers when our Amax inventory gets low.
I didn't have much luck with 8208 either, but varget is working well.
I gave up on 8208 and tried H4895, it had better speeds but still inconsistent so I picked up some Varget today to try. What charge are you using and what is you speed?
With the a-max I was running 24.2 gr Varget, in lapua brass for 2825fps out of a 30" barrel. I did some measuring on the ELD-m and the A-max today and couldn't find enough of a difference to matter between the two. No more variation between them than what I find between lots of bullets. So in my eyes they are the same. But, I will only be able to tell for sure when I finally load up some of the ELD-m's
Overall projectile length between the Amax and the ELD-M bullets measured pretty much the same for me. By using the Hornady overall length gauge with the two bullets in our Savage 12, the ELD-Ms were touching lands about at a .050" longer overall cartridge length than the Amax. This pretty much verifies a more slender shape for the front half of the ELD-Ms vs the Amax. I was really hoping to get these 80gr ELD-Ms to shoot since the advertised BC is better than anything else on the market. Even the older 80gr Amax has a better BC than any other 80gr on the market.
I measured base to ojive of a dozen A-max and a dozen ELD-M and they only varied by about .005 average. I see more variation than that in a box of A-Max's.
I know this thread is a couple months old, but I have had excellent results with the 80 gr eld's and XBR 8208. I stumbled on these looking for some 75 gr eld's but my local supplier was out so I figured I'd play with them. Out of my ruger precision 223 I get 2787 fps, with accuracy usually in the mid to high .2's. Was able to push them up to 2850 with out any pressure signs other than cratered primers which is something these RPR's are know for even with mild loads. Up til that point I had been running 70 gr RDF's with good results and accuracy around .5. I've taken these 80's out to 825 yards with no problem, even with fairly tricky winds sub MOA was no problem at that range. XBR 8208 has worked well for me in several 223's with several different loads. So far I've had good results from all the eld bullets I've worked with, the 73's work really good at mag length in a 8 twist AR, and the 140's and 143's in a Creedmoor. Havnt had a chance to try the 147's yet.
I'm still working on getting the 80gr eld's to work, I tried some Varget and got about the same accuracy as the XBR 8208 and the H4895 but the speeds were way lower. I think I will try working with the H4895 again and see if I can get them to be more consistent as I liked the speed closer to 2950 fps. BTW I am shooting these out of a Tikka T3X Varmint, I had the barrel threaded but not cut down by LRI.
I'd like to get move velocity out of them as well but didn't won't to push them any harder with the cratering primers. These 223 rpr's are notorious for primer cratering and I plan on getting the firing pin bushed soon, at that point I'll push it a little harder because it looked like it started coming into another node when I got up to 2850 and stopped. I think that's pretty respectable for a 20 inch 223.
I'm getting 2820 with 25.0 grains of varget and 80 eld loaded to 2.480". 24" barrel.
No pressure signs, but do you guys think I'm pushing it a little too much with 25.0 grains?
No pressure signs, but do you guys think I'm pushing it a little too much with 25.0 grains?
If your not getting any pressure signs then I'd say no but that's just my opinion. I always let the particular rifle tell me when I'm at max. Seating long like that allows for more powder vs book max. Like I said that's just my opinion and how I do things.
I looked up the hodgdon manual and it said max with a 80 SMK was 25.0, although loaded longer than where I'm at. Seems I'm pretty close though instead of way over.
I do get cratered primers but that's more due to my firing pin hole. I crater with starting loads too.
No heavy bolt lift or signs on the brass itself.
I do get cratered primers but that's more due to my firing pin hole. I crater with starting loads too.
No heavy bolt lift or signs on the brass itself.
I have the same problem with cratering primers but it craters mild loads to so I don't pay that much attention. I didn't want to start piercing primers is why I stop when I did I had no other pressure signs
HI All,
just wanted to see how people have been progressing with their 80gr ELD-m Loads?
im looking to start reloading and thinking this will be my projectile of choice!!
Cheers
James
just wanted to see how people have been progressing with their 80gr ELD-m Loads?
im looking to start reloading and thinking this will be my projectile of choice!!
Cheers
James
Hey Guys, ive recently been playing with the 73gr eld m's in my t3x stainless varmint with the 24" barrel. With 24gr of varget and seated 10 thou off the lands I could only manage an average velocity of 2781fps. They shot reasonable at 100y (0.7) but Id like to get something up around the 2800 mark if possible. Any guys here pushing the 80's safely around the 2750fps mark out of a tikka?
Began load development using the 80gr ELD out of my AR15 26" WOA with 1/8 twist and WOA's custom varmint chamber. Using Ramshot TAC with 5.56 data rather than 223 and CCI450. Started at 21.9 grs and .020" off lands or 2.410" produced 1/4 inch group at 200 yards. Hand fed each round.
Working up the charge results were not near as good until I got within 1 gr of max for 5.56 and groups shrank to all touching same hole.
Don't have velocity and SD numbers yet but will retest the loads near max and see if things change.
Plan to try RL15 after retesting best loads with TAC.
Working up the charge results were not near as good until I got within 1 gr of max for 5.56 and groups shrank to all touching same hole.
Don't have velocity and SD numbers yet but will retest the loads near max and see if things change.
Plan to try RL15 after retesting best loads with TAC.
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+1 for using TAC. Any pill over 69 g and TAC seems to work awesome. Lighter stuff BLC2 is a champ.
What is a responsible velocity for the 80gr eld in a 223? I’m working on some loads with H4895 in win brass from a 24” CBI rem/age barrel with 223 match chamber.
Seeing slight primer cratering at starting load of 23.0gr (2700fps) and heavy cratering at 23.8gr (2825fps). No other pressure signs but the increase in cratering severity makes me nervous.
Hornady says 22.3gr @2600fps is max while Hodgdon says 24.0gr @ 2825fps (80gr SMK). That’s a large diff.
Standard deviation gets high (20fps+) over 2750-2775fps tho.
Seeing slight primer cratering at starting load of 23.0gr (2700fps) and heavy cratering at 23.8gr (2825fps). No other pressure signs but the increase in cratering severity makes me nervous.
Hornady says 22.3gr @2600fps is max while Hodgdon says 24.0gr @ 2825fps (80gr SMK). That’s a large diff.
Standard deviation gets high (20fps+) over 2750-2775fps tho.
What is your rifle? What primer are you using?
I would try cci 450 or Remington 7.5 primers. You should get close to 3000 fps before they crater severely.
Primers with a thicker cup (CCI 450/Rem 7-1/2) will resist cratering and piercing but does the fact that I’m using small rifle primers in a mild pressured cartridge and getting high pressure signs not indicate that my pressure is high?
Why do I need to use magnum primers in a non magnum cartridge? Is that a safe solution or should I take a hint and reduce my charge/pressures?
I still think that my velocity is on the low side for a 24” barrel so maybe that is the solution.
Why do I need to use magnum primers in a non magnum cartridge? Is that a safe solution or should I take a hint and reduce my charge/pressures?
I still think that my velocity is on the low side for a 24” barrel so maybe that is the solution.
@gilk I'm running TAC under the 80gr ELD-M's @2950fps in my 26" Criterion remage barrel with Wylde chamber. Due to cratering and one pierced primer (CCI 400) I went to CCI 41's for the thicker primer cup and have had no further issues.
Bunsen27,
What’s your max COL with 80gr eld in a wylde chamber? I was sold on the 223 match chamber by northland and my COL to the rifling is around 2.580” but I can only load to about 2.515” before the tail gets into the neck of the case.
What’s your max COL with 80gr eld in a wylde chamber? I was sold on the 223 match chamber by northland and my COL to the rifling is around 2.580” but I can only load to about 2.515” before the tail gets into the neck of the case.
Northland tried to sell me on the match chamber as well but I was already loading for a Wylde.
I can just barely fit them in an MDT polymer magazine which has a max OAL of 2.550". The few I measured were 2.544". I set the ogive back 0.010" from the lands. With my Hornady comparator I'm at 1.995" base to ogive so the land would be 2.005". I'm uncertain of your last comment so I took a pic of my load and an unseated bullet beside it for reference. Hope that helps. I'm also running Lapua brass for reference.
That’s what I was talking about...I didn’t want to seat the bullet so far out that the boat tail was in the neck of the case. That was around 2.515” for me but the 223 match chamber is so long I’d have to have a COL of about 2.580” to touch the rifling. So my minimum jump is 0.065”. It seems like the 223 match chamber is meant for longer bullets.
Ok, now I understand your previous comment. Pardon my lack of knowledge , but why would it matter if the boat tail of the bullet was inside the case neck? Are you worried about run out / concentricity issues?
gilk:
I've been looking for an answer as to how much neck contact is needed. So far, all I found is a popular belief that the caliber is a good estimate... i.e. .224 of neck contact with the 223. I would be interested in other methods of determining that measurement if someone has one.
I've been looking for an answer as to how much neck contact is needed. So far, all I found is a popular belief that the caliber is a good estimate... i.e. .224 of neck contact with the 223. I would be interested in other methods of determining that measurement if someone has one.
Interesting. Some quick back of the napkin math shows that the neck length on .223Rem is ~0.250"
For my load the boat tail of the bullet is just barely into the neck. It is a sub MOA load, I've not checked concentricity, but I'm not too worried.
You might be able to seat your bullets out a bit further with no negative effects gilk.
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Ok, I’ve never had this issue before. I didn’t know if it was a bad idea to push the bullet out too far. Sounds like it won’t hurt anything as long it’s not causing concentricity problems.
There may be a point where grip/hold is an issue as well. I was getting horrible vel SD (20fps +) with these loads and I measured the neck tension at 0.0015” so I polished my expanded ball to get 0.002” tension and my SD was <10fps. So, theoretically, more neck tension could be needed if you reduce the neck engagement by putting the boat tail into the neck.
There may be a point where grip/hold is an issue as well. I was getting horrible vel SD (20fps +) with these loads and I measured the neck tension at 0.0015” so I polished my expanded ball to get 0.002” tension and my SD was <10fps. So, theoretically, more neck tension could be needed if you reduce the neck engagement by putting the boat tail into the neck.
I actually have worked up loads for the 73, 75, and 80gr ELD-M's all with TAC. FPS is 3045, 2875, & 2950 respectively. I have not tested a higher node for the 75gr load because it is so damn accurate already.
I lost a lot of speed in my DT SAC 223 conversion. Like from 3000+ to <2800. Far more than was compensated for by the slightly higher BC. Looking at the bullet, the bearing surface was way longer in the 80s, probably increasing pressure and friciton. RL15 25 grains with the 75s and more like 23.5 with the 80s. COAL 2.490" loaded long.
I decided the 75s were the way to go and they shoot like a house on fire out to 800 yards.
I have 1000 80s if anybody wants to make an offer
That’s what I was think might be the case. The 75’s shoot nice with 26.6 CFE23 at 2860 and I don’t think the 80 would be as effective at say 2700.
Maybe the 80 would be a good fit for the 223ai and a longer barrrel then my 20”
Maybe the 80 would be a good fit for the 223ai and a longer barrrel then my 20”
Are you still running this charge? What kind of SD are you getting?
I’m using 24.2-24.4gr of Varget and getting fantastic results. It’s holding ~.4moa across 40 shots, and the 15 when the magnetospeed wasn’t attached were sub .3moa. Velocity is only 2856fps from a 24” Bartlein, but we’ve taken them out to 1200yds and got consistent hits.
In my previous experience, 8208 requires about .4-.6gr less powder to match up with RL-15/Varget accuracy nodes, but you can hit pressure signs abruptly.
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tripple d, thank you for the info. I had a load in my old barrel with 8208 xbr and the 75 eld that was wayyyyy over published data. It shot pretty decent . Ive got a new barrel Im about to put on and will try some varget with the 75 eld this time around. How far off the lands were you ? What camber are you using?
I'm in this same delima, match with 80's or 88's or 75's with a Wylde?? Anyone shooting the 85 rdf's with either chamber? I really want to stay 223 because of the price for ready to load LC brass. This will be with a Criterion barrel on a 700.
From my measurements, the 75 eld-m loaded at 2.518" touches the lands with this Criterion match chamber. I can load out to 2.550" with these MDT mags. Have you guys had better luck with a jump or touching with theses 75 eld-m?
With the 75s in my rifle they shoot tightest just off the lands. I load them 2thou off
thank you Strike _out. What chamber are you running ?
Factory Tikka T3 chamber 1:8 twist
Note that I haven’t tried them seated any deeper than .040 off
I’ll try and check later today. It’s a match chamber commonly used for the 80gr Berger’s, but I don’t have the print in front of me. Likely the 223 rem match. It’s a no turn chamber, but the shoulder is set at the minimum. Very few factory loads chamber reliably in it.
What amount of jump are you using? I have a different barrel and can’t get it to shoot with the 80 ELDm. It’ll shoot fine with other bullets but want to give these one last shot.
I’ve used the 80 grain ELD-M with great success in my rifle. I had a 8 twist Brux spun up for a R700 and put it in a Manners T4A. 24.6 grains of Varget. Base to ogive measured 1.948”. Federal American Eagle brass and CCI 400 primers. I just had that same barrel set back to fit a Defiance Deviant so I can shoot it some more.
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