opinions please.... just placed my first AR-15 in service, with the Trijicon MRO red dot.... zeroing at 50 yards... I am looking at 1.5 to 2 inch groups of three... the rifle is a Christensen Arms CA-15.... I was expecting better, but seems very consistent... are you folks looking at the same? opinions please...
AR-15 accuracy at 50 yards - with Trijicon MRO
- Thread starter hunter1959
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The MRO has a 2 MOA dot so that’s about what I would expect. I’ll let someone else write about the limitations of three shot groups and such.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect stellar groups with a red dot. That said I have an MRO on a PS90, it's been a while since I've had it to the range, but seems like I was getting 1-1.5" groups with it at 50. Have you used a more traditional optic on that rifle just to see what it would do?
no, I haven't.… I have other scoped, bolt action for long range... 6.5 creedmoor and .308... the AR-15 is intended as a close in defense piece, along with a 12ga riot with 00... not displeased with what I am seeing with the combination, just checking... I figure that at 50 it will cover closer in and out to 100 pretty well... a 1.5-2.0 group will still get it done at 100 nicely
It's not a benchrest gun, so getting consistent 1.5 - 2 MOA groups offhand from an AR with a red dot sounds good to me.
For the purpose you describe it seems like your setup is more than adequate.
nope, it isn't… not a benchrest competitor, but have done F-Class open in the past with a custom 30.06... at this point, given my opinion of our political conditions my interest, along with a few of my other service buddies (keep in mind I graduated in '70 with them, with me being the only one who went to the water) is that of being able to hit at all ranges that are likely... I have a Remington 700 VLS in .223 that I have used for coyotes... but decided to get out of the 30.06 game and sold it, then invested in Accuracy International with interchangeable 6.5 and .308 to reach out... long guns, I think I am covered.. might at a 300 blackout to the mix, but not sure yet
If you are getting 2 MOA from wolf gold that is pretty good. It’s reliable but match ammo it is not.
yeap, Wolf was suggested for the purpose... I have used Hunting Shack .223 for varmints in the VLS, which turned out to be excellent with take downs out to 300... so yes, the Wolf round is inexpensive and intended at that price for the job mentioned...
Zero at 36 yards, you will be dead on at 300 with a tighter vertical dispersion between 36-300 compared to a 50 yard zero.
Also, practice and know your holds at 5-15 yards, keeping in mind your barrel-optic offset. If used in a defensive situation, more than likely you will be engaging at 25 or less anyway. This is more important for a personal defense AR than just trying shooting little groups. You have your scoped rifles for that.
If you haven’t already done so, I’d also consider adding a 3x magnifier to be set up with a QD Mount so it can be quickly put on and removed as needed.
I don‘t know why but I shoot better groups when zeroing with BUIS than I do with my MRO. I’ll check them ever so often to make sure there zero‘d just in case.
The Trijicon MRO is not the limiting factor in the size of the groups that you obtained. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from a distance of 50 yards using a Trijicon MRO atop a BCM 14.5" ELW. The group has an extreme spread of 0.772" (1.47 MOA).
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Zero the rifle and be done. Shooting groups with a defensive AR makes no since. Get fast with it. Thats what matters. Rounds on target quickly. Leave the slow bagged up crap for the bolt fun. I don't let my carbines touch a rest unless I am zeroing my red dot.
Like you said OP. The wolf gold will get it done well past 100 yards. Hell it will get the job done past 300 yards.
Like you said OP. The wolf gold will get it done well past 100 yards. Hell it will get the job done past 300 yards.
The red dot isn't meant for precision, but (with practice) you should be able to produce sub 1.5" groups from a rest at 50 yards with decent ammo. Offhand is a different beast and much more skill related.
I have an old Daniel Defense V7 that is my home defense rifle with an Eotech XPS-2 on it. It is a 2 MOA rifle with several defensive loads out to 100 yards. However that becomes a 3-4 MOA spread with inexpensive M855 or M193 clone ammo.
I also have a newer DDM4V7 with a Trijicon 1-4 on it. I can shoot it a little more accurately, but the groups nearly double again with the cheaper ammo.
I have an old Daniel Defense V7 that is my home defense rifle with an Eotech XPS-2 on it. It is a 2 MOA rifle with several defensive loads out to 100 yards. However that becomes a 3-4 MOA spread with inexpensive M855 or M193 clone ammo.
I also have a newer DDM4V7 with a Trijicon 1-4 on it. I can shoot it a little more accurately, but the groups nearly double again with the cheaper ammo.
If I'm not mistaken, you said you have not had much time behind an AR-15 rifle. I'm not sure what your background is with any semi-auto rifle, but here are some of the things I've learned:
1) Even with the "best of the best" hardware and ammo, it still all comes down to the shooter and his mastery of the fundamentals. Proper trigger control is king, along with quality bench resting. I'm not sure if you are shooting off a bipod or some kind of bench rest system, but trigger control, breath control, adequate loading of the bipod and a super solid shooting position is what leads to consistently tight groups. A mil spec trigger is not intended for precision/tight groups
2) The ammo you are using to zero is "good enough" to be sure for "combat effectiveness" and the comment somebody posted here about keeping in mind what your AR is designed to be and to do is also wise. It's a combat rifle, intended to poke holes in humans tightly enough to incapactate/kill. Your particularly AR is most definitely not going to produce "match level" results, but ....
3) Better ammo and more time behind the trigger will produce better results. Better quality ammo will also product better results, and of course you can run really high-price match level ammo through it and get the best results, but those results will not be repeatable with simple range type ammo or simple mil-spec stuff.
4) The best piece of advice I've seen so far is that you need to follow a disciplined training regime with the AR to get acceptably accurate groups against a clock from various positions as quickly and accurately as possible. That's what the RDS if for on an AR, it allows you to go from low ready to on target as quickly as possible. The more you train the better you will get.
5) Not having said all that, if you get bit by the "precision rifle" bug and still want to use the AR, you can get the right parts together and get much greater accuaracy: 20" match grade barrel, national match/SSA-E trigger from Geissele, as quality a magnified optic as you can afford, super-solid bipod and lots of match grade ammo and practice. You will get sub-MOA results out of the right hardware.
But, for now, I'd focus on speed and accuracy and mastering the fundamentals of your mil-spec AR set up.
FWIW.
1) Even with the "best of the best" hardware and ammo, it still all comes down to the shooter and his mastery of the fundamentals. Proper trigger control is king, along with quality bench resting. I'm not sure if you are shooting off a bipod or some kind of bench rest system, but trigger control, breath control, adequate loading of the bipod and a super solid shooting position is what leads to consistently tight groups. A mil spec trigger is not intended for precision/tight groups
2) The ammo you are using to zero is "good enough" to be sure for "combat effectiveness" and the comment somebody posted here about keeping in mind what your AR is designed to be and to do is also wise. It's a combat rifle, intended to poke holes in humans tightly enough to incapactate/kill. Your particularly AR is most definitely not going to produce "match level" results, but ....
3) Better ammo and more time behind the trigger will produce better results. Better quality ammo will also product better results, and of course you can run really high-price match level ammo through it and get the best results, but those results will not be repeatable with simple range type ammo or simple mil-spec stuff.
4) The best piece of advice I've seen so far is that you need to follow a disciplined training regime with the AR to get acceptably accurate groups against a clock from various positions as quickly and accurately as possible. That's what the RDS if for on an AR, it allows you to go from low ready to on target as quickly as possible. The more you train the better you will get.
5) Not having said all that, if you get bit by the "precision rifle" bug and still want to use the AR, you can get the right parts together and get much greater accuaracy: 20" match grade barrel, national match/SSA-E trigger from Geissele, as quality a magnified optic as you can afford, super-solid bipod and lots of match grade ammo and practice. You will get sub-MOA results out of the right hardware.
But, for now, I'd focus on speed and accuracy and mastering the fundamentals of your mil-spec AR set up.
FWIW.
Good comments from all, and in response to this note, I am in total agreement with your thoughts.... Precision at long range has been my game for some time, and I believe in one note earlier I mentioned some of the other firearms I have put in the case.... as you note my intent with the AR is not precision .25 or .50 MOA... I have that with my AI AT and the Rem VLS in .223... my AR is here as a pure defensive combat weapon... my original post was to compare outcomes and to understand the proper expectation... all of your thought are very valid and thank you for them.... which goes for every one of you that took the time to respond.... very much appreciated
I only co- witness when reconfirming or zeroing red dots and I shoot the same as with irons when zeroing. I was trained on irons years ago by Uncle Sam, so I find it easy to shoot them. For BUIS I use Midwest Industries. For run and gun red dots are way quicker, so that’s what I use for classes. That said I am starting to use LVPO too.
You've got a lot working against you even if you're benching it (didn't see you mention if you were or not).
The optic most definitely is a limiting factory. Not just for the 2MOA dot but also because you have zero magnification and the MRO's are also notorious for parallax error. They have quite a bit compared to other RDS. They work well for close stuff but that's it IMO. The other factor is the ammo.
All things considered 1.5-2" at 50 is good given the circumstances.
The optic most definitely is a limiting factory. Not just for the 2MOA dot but also because you have zero magnification and the MRO's are also notorious for parallax error. They have quite a bit compared to other RDS. They work well for close stuff but that's it IMO. The other factor is the ammo.
All things considered 1.5-2" at 50 is good given the circumstances.
Sorry if I missed it.... is the Actual Red dot covering your point of aim ?
You might try using the top of the "red dot" as your point of aim... ( at the 12:00 point )
Not perfect... but it might help limit your dispersion.
You might try using the top of the "red dot" as your point of aim... ( at the 12:00 point )
Not perfect... but it might help limit your dispersion.
The MRO has adjustments to reduce the size and glare of the dot itself... I am using it at the smallest setting and it does not fully cover the center area of the cross section zeroing target... but your idea is actually a good one
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