New to reloading and having the bullet pushed back into the case when you load it. I'm using 77 gr nosler custom competition and loading to mag length with lc brass. I've sized the brass and checked and it should have more then enough neck tension.
- Thread starter Bowtechassassin
- Start date
All that said I would be willing to bet that your sizing die isn't set up properly. I would bet you are sizing the top of the case neck but not the whole thing thus giving an appearance that neck tension is ok but it's really not.
Full length sizing with hornady dies using imperial sizing wax, annealing. I'm using my calipers to measure the inside after sizing. And I'm getting .006 at least.
Are you annealing before you size? How are you annealing?
If you over anneal it can cause problems.
Measuring neck tension with calipers is not ideal. There are substantially better tools for that job.
Is your die set up where it touches your shell holder? If so can you get cam over with your press how you have the die set up?
Do over without annealing using 1x brass. I suspect you over annealed and now the neck is too soft to hold the bullet.
Yes annealing before resizing with annealeez. I even tried a piece without annealing to see the results and it did the same thing. Yes it's touching the shell holder and it cams over. I measure with what I have and it's reading .220
Do you have a picture of the feed ramp barrel extension area.
Are you lubing the inside of the neck with imperial for expanding?
This is where I would look. I have a AR upper that will move the 55 fmj Fiocchi factory ammo back each time it hits the feed ramp. Need to polish it up. If I load the same round 5-6 times it will push it back into the case completely
Next time you anneal. After the case is run up into the die, lower the ram till you feel the expander pull out of the brass. Then run the case back up into the die again and now you have brass that is not too soft to hold a bullet.
Any chance bullet is hitting breech end of barrel because entry cone in barrel is too small, or an issue with feed ramps in barrel extension? Or chance there is not a smooth transition between extension ramps and receiver?
They should hold with no crimp. Find out why they are getting set back.
See how your bullet reacts when it hits the feed ramp. The ramp in this pic will catch the round. If I move the bolt slowly it will actually hold it from going forward. Pinching the bullet in between the sharp edges. Needs to be polished down. Moves factory Fiocchi 55 fmj each time it’s chambered. Eventually knocking the bullet out of the case neck completely
Been a long time since I said anything on this forum, but this topic just ‘happened’ to me with AR reloads with a new (to me) bullet. For feral hog use, I wanted to try out the Nosler 64 gr Bonded Solid Base bullet. Nosler suggested a COAL of 2.175”, but I decided to measure for a shorter bullet jump, just like I’d do for a bolt gun. That gave me a COAL of 2.215”, so I went with that. Every now and then (maybe 1 out of 15 rounds) the gun would hang up due to the bullet being pushed completely back into the case of a round. I then decided to crimp the rounds with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, but that didn’t solve the problem - even if I crimped tighter. Could it be the mags, but no, it wasn’t. After much research, the problem was that I was loading the round too long. I went to the Nosler recommended COAL and the problem went away. The problem was a combination of the too-long COAL and the shape of the bullet. I hated to change the COAL, because I had finally found the magic accuracy load, but I found that the magic load for the shorter COAL was just a tiny bit less powder (H335).
So, for the OP, if you aren’t using the Nosler COAL “as tested”, give their suggested length a try.
So, for the OP, if you aren’t using the Nosler COAL “as tested”, give their suggested length a try.
Nosler 77gr CC's don't really respond well to crimping. For one thing, they don't have a cannelure so you end up deforming them to accomplish a crimp that isn't a cure for the actual problem.
I have a bunch of 77 Nosler CC with a cannelure, but I still don't crimp.
Use your calipers for OD measurement.
Sized neck OD then with bullet seated.
With same type of measurement (OD on cylinder) , error will be fairly equal for both.
Sized neck OD then with bullet seated.
With same type of measurement (OD on cylinder) , error will be fairly equal for both.
What are they?
With exceptionally long ogive bullets, sometimes its impossible to load them to magazine length. When you try, there isn't enough bearing surface touching the case neck. You can use a bullet comparator to determine the location of the start and end of the bearing surface. Make yourself a sketch of the case neck in relationship to the bullet shape, see where the bullet tip ends up …
On a related note, seating for accuracy like we do in bolt guns (near zero jump) doesn’t really work well in gas guns. Turns out that seating 0.070-0.090 jump will get good results and is not as sensitive to throat erosion.
Cal Zant has a good series of articles on the subject. This one sort of wraps them up: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/
Loading and ballistics Information in ‘nauseating detail’ at https://SnellsNotebook.us
On a related note, seating for accuracy like we do in bolt guns (near zero jump) doesn’t really work well in gas guns. Turns out that seating 0.070-0.090 jump will get good results and is not as sensitive to throat erosion.
Cal Zant has a good series of articles on the subject. This one sort of wraps them up: https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/03/29/bullet-jump-load-development/
Loading and ballistics Information in ‘nauseating detail’ at https://SnellsNotebook.us
Tried the same thing with a 77gr Sierra Match King. To fit in the mag of an AR, and the max length over all of 2.260, the bullet ogive is simply too long to allow the case neck to maintain a good friction seat. Had to back off to the 69gr Match King BTHP bullet.
Pushed by 24 gr of 4895, chronographs at 2850 fps, and prints a 1" group at 100 yds, off the bench.
Pushed by 24 gr of 4895, chronographs at 2850 fps, and prints a 1" group at 100 yds, off the bench.
Sure you weren’t using the tipped matchking? The 77gr SMK works fine at 2.260”. In fact the TMK does as well.
The bullet that doesn’t, that people have trouble with, is the 75 ELD-M, and previously the 75 A-Max. Those actually are too long for normal mag use. Not to be confused with the 75 BTHP.
Not sure what you measured or what bullet you actually used, but the 77 SMK, 77 Nosler CC, and 75 BTHP are the three most common heavies for AR15 use and they all load fine at 2.260” without putting the ogive in the case mouth.
Except the OP said he’s using the 77 CC which is made for AR15 use and fits fine at normal magazine length. While your comment is true, it’s irrelevant here and just a distraction.
Needing to crimp because bullets would get pushed in otherwise is a bad plan. Crimping so recoil doesn't change COAL during recoil is a different story.
If your bullet impacts the feed ramp enough to be pushed in and you solve it by crimping what is happening?
You are smacking every bullet on the tip at an angle before you shoot it. This can cause a lot of accuracy issues.
You want the round to feed without becoming deformed or misaligned from concentric.
If your bullet impacts the feed ramp enough to be pushed in and you solve it by crimping what is happening?
You are smacking every bullet on the tip at an angle before you shoot it. This can cause a lot of accuracy issues.
You want the round to feed without becoming deformed or misaligned from concentric.
OP, you say loading to mag length, what is your actual COAL?
Thank you for reminding me why I so rarely post here, or anywhere, for that matter.
I’ll repeat what I said earlier. The bullets I loaded for my AR were well within magazine length and some of them had the bullets jammed back into the case. Using advice from some knowledgeable folks, I reduced the COAL, which worked. The reloads were fine for the chamber and fine for the magazines, but a bit too long for the workings of the action. Try a shorter COAL. Can’t hurt to just try it.
Crimping did not solve the problem. Different mags did not solve the problem. Increasing the crimp did not solve the problem.
Crimping did not solve the problem. Different mags did not solve the problem. Increasing the crimp did not solve the problem.
If you can't be bothered to read the details presented in the original question, and/or stick to what you know, why bother commenting at all? You seem to have a bad habit of that.
Crimping doesn’t really work if the bullet doesn’t have a cannelure. You need friction and even then when the feeding geometry isn’t right the bullet will set back.
If your new to reloading STOP right here. Examine your powder load, case lenghts and bullet weight for your individual rifle. USUALLY THIS IS A SIGN of not sufficient crimping of the bullet case BUT you need to look at what you have and record what your doing every time. Stop right here.It could be the load of powder, primer type etc causing unusual pressures. How do you know you have "more than enough neck tension?
Negative, goatrider. Most of what you just said has nothing to do with bullets getting pushed back in the case. Primer type? Pressures? Really? Doesn’t sound like you took the time to understand the question.
You’ve got to read the OP’s comments and the thread more carefully if you want to be helpful.
And no, crimp is not the answer.
Any luck figuring it out yet?
What if the bullet is not being pushed into the case? What if the shoulder is being bumped .006” during chambering?
I use a small amount of taper crimp on my semi auto ammuntion.
VooDoo
VooDoo
I do not use any crimp in my AR ammo, and never have a problem.
There are no hard rules, plenty of people do not buy bullets with a cannelue and do not crimp them, I am one of them.
Crimping never helps accuracy and neck tension is plenty to keep bullets from moving in the magazine from recoil on 5.56.
I've got a chambering issue cause it's also scratching the bullet. But I did take the expander mandrel out of the die and sitted a couple and they didn't move when chambered. I'm gonna have the barrel worked on to fix the chambering issue still.
Clearly one size does not fit all - on my AR's they will set the bullet back when they strip and chamber a round unless they are crimped as is most factory ammunition. Moving under recoil is one thing as .223/5.56 recoil is nothing but ramming it up the feed ramp usually results in some degree of setback (in my guns and not to a scary degree) unless they are crimped. Usually I'm running Hornady V-Max flat base bullets without cannelure.
If it were me I'd taper crimp them just a teeny bit and in my guns (YMMV) accuracy never suffered from a slight crimp and they never set back. Still sub MOA and not with a free floated barrel either.
VooDoo
If it were me I'd taper crimp them just a teeny bit and in my guns (YMMV) accuracy never suffered from a slight crimp and they never set back. Still sub MOA and not with a free floated barrel either.
VooDoo
No they don't and crimping match-grade bullets can degrade accuracy. The graphic below shows the results of firing three, 10-shot groups in a row from semi-automatic AR-15s using various loadings of the Nosler 77 grain OTM with a cannelure and compared to Black Hills MK262 Mod 1.
....
" I put a crimp and never had a problem... " is kinda like saying " I use a belt and suspenders and never had my pants fall down ". Uhh, yeah, duh.
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