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AR10 realistic accuracy expectations

T

Triton225

Sergeant of the Hide
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Minuteman
Dec 11, 2019
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So, what is acceptable accuracy out of sub 2k$ ar10's?
Especially interested in the ruger SFAR experiences. Have seen some reviews that 4 moa is being acceptable, maybe I expect too much and comparing to bolt gun experience am I being unfair to think 2 moa is decent and 1moa is standard(AR10s)?
 
So what kind of groups do you get between the 2?
 
I want my LFAR's to do at least 1.5 MOA.

However , it really depends on what you want... Minute of Man ? or more precision.
And finding an ammo / load your LFAR likes is critical.

I have a PSA PA 65, with a Criterion Barrel ( with other accurizing tricks done by me ) that can truly shoot better then me.
I guess I am saying... if I can do it, so can most anyone else.
Provided you have the mindset and tools.
bcs1wiqa-606179.jpg
 
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Are you talking short range or stretching it's legs out? If you are going out to 800+ then if you're getting 1.5 moa you're doing a damn fine job.

I could hold moa or better (SOMETIMES ) with my accuracy AR-10 until about 850-900+ then the BEST I can do is 1.5. The same rifle is a laser at short distance.

Short distance I don't think it'll be too hard to find a load that most factory barrels will like.
 
Triton225 said:
So what kind of groups do you get between the 2?
Click to expand...
With the M&p10 I can consistently stay within 1.5 inches at 200 yards minus the shots that were clearly user error. I’m sure a better shooter could improve upon my performance. With my built 308 it’s usually about a half inch to 3/4 inch bigger groups. I don’t know if my m&p10 was just built when the guys were having a good day, but it’s a better rifle than it has the right to be for it’s price.
 
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I'm shooting 1/2 MOA from both of my home-built Aero Precision LRs shooting handloads - one in .243 Win and the other in .308 Win. Both have 24" X-Caliber barrels, heavy buffers, light buffer springs, adjustable gas blocks, and Geissele SSA-E triggers. Spent less than 2K on each minus the optics.
 
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Bigtrucknut said:
I'm shooting 1/2 MOA from both of my home-built Aero Precision LRs shooting handloads - one in .243 Win and the other in .308 Win. Both have 24" X-Caliber barrels, heavy buffers, light buffer springs, adjustable gas blocks, and Geissele SSA-E triggers. Spent less than 2K on each minus the optics.
Click to expand...
How do you like the 243 in a ar platform? I’ve been toying with the idea of building one, I’ve always liked the cartridge.
 
DPMS LR-308 24” stainless fluted bull Barrel. Moa with FGMM or Hornady match. Gun was $1199. It doesn’t get shot much because it’s a heavy pig and I enjoy shooting others more, but it’s easily sub moa with handloads as well.
 
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Talking 100yds just for a idea of what's a realistic accuracy expectation. So would 2moa be a "it should do that" expectation?
 
m80 target.jpg


This was my 716i shooting FMJ blaster ammo. If I put it in a mechanical rest and single feed my f class loads it was 3/4MOA but that's not realistic shooting.

Another one loads are listed on here:
targets 716i.jpg


My DPMS SASS would put 10 rounds into one of those dots but it weighed 17lbs with the scope, stock, bipod I had. This rifle is about 10lbs with a 1-4x and a mag.
 
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I had an Armalite AR-10 with a Super Sniper 10X on top of it. I ran the 168 SMK's over varget at mag length and some days slow fire I could shoot 1/2 MOA out to 300 yards and some days I could shoot a 2 MOA 100 yard group. It was probably the nut behind the gun that was making the mistake but mine seemed hit or miss. I did shoot out to 600 with mine every time we went to the range shooting on average about 1 1/2 MOA at 600. Bone stock gun, Personally I didn't have the want to shoot the 308 over the 600 mark with a gas gun because I felt like I wasn't getting enough velocity to carry to the 1000+ mark. It seems to me the guys shooting the 1000+ yards with the 308 are running long barrels and pushing whatever bullet they decide to absolute max velocity just to keep it supersonic out to 1K.
 
In my experiences with large frame AR accuracy (all in .308):

DPMS LR308B - Bought it about a week after Sandy Hook before the shelves were completely cleared. Damn thing actually ran well, and shot very consistently around 1 MOA with 168gr Atomic ammo. Sold it to my neighbor here, and he uses it for shooting pigs out of his house still. He loves it.

Criterion barreled home build on an Aero set - Runs 1.5 - 2 MOA with just about every cheap factory ammo that I've tried, including FMJ. Very limited handloading got me a couple of 1 MOA groups...but that was with hunting bullets for hogs.

Wilson Combat barreled home build on another Aero set - essentially the same accuracy as the Criterion barrel. Got both the 130gr TTSX and 150gr SST just under a minute for five shots with only two powder charge weight tests.

I've yet to ever do a load workup with a match bullet. Probably there is a little more accuracy to be had, but *I* don't have a practical use for it.
 
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My DPMS SASS didn't shoot exceptionally well until I seated the bullets deeper. My 716i has been the most consistent with 150-155gr bullets. Lots of times a front bipod and a rear bag will be the best setup. The only reason I got a 716i was I lowballed the retailer at 950$ and they said yes otherwise I'd have waited for a used seekins SP10 16-18".
 
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Without getting into all the variables that go into a sub-MOA gas gun I will say learning how to shoot it is probably the biggest factor. Way more moving parts on a gas gun compared to a bolt gun.

When I got behind an AR10 for the first time I was blaming everything but myself. I just could not figure out why I'd fire 2 rounds that were touching and then 1 two inches high.

Once I stopped shooting it like a bolt gun is when my POIs got much more consistent.
 
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They are easily capable of outshooting all but the best benchrest shooters. If you get a good barrel and ammo that it likes, and you have your gas system running like a German clock, they are capable of sub half moa accuracy. I find that shooting any ar suppressed just about cuts your group sizes in half. There are a dozen reasons why that might be true, but I find it to be consistent across every large frame ar I've ever owned. I have a 24" er shaw barrel in 6.5cm that I paid about $350 for that only works with clamshell gas blocks because the gas block diameter is larger than any commercially available gas block, and with handloads, (several different loads), it has laid down several .2 and .3 three shot groups, (with a suppressor attached).
 
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
They are easily capable of outshooting all but the best benchrest shooters. If you get a good barrel and ammo that it likes, and you have your gas system running like a German clock, they are capable of sub half moa accuracy. I find that shooting any ar suppressed just about cuts your group sizes in half. There are a dozen reasons why that might be true, but I find it to be consistent across every large frame ar I've ever owned. I have a 24" er shaw barrel in 6.5cm that I paid about $350 for that only works with clamshell gas blocks because the gas block diameter is larger than any commercially available gas block, and with handloads, (several different loads), it has laid down several .2 and .3 three shot groups, (with a suppressor attached).
Click to expand...

My RRA NM A2 rifle was a 1/2MOA rifle. Flat base match/varmint bullets gave me the best groups. I don't expect that out of my 716i really just bought it to have something in 308.
 
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I'm not the best marksman with an AR 15/10 but that's mostly on me, not the guns. I don't perform quality practice anywhere near enough. Kinda like my golf game, sucks. I've found these three factors (listed in order of importance) to be the key to consistency and accuracy in the AR10:

1. Consistent technique and recoil management.
2. Recoil reduction using both mass and gas.
3. The right harmonic load for the gun.

Quality components definitely matter but there is more to it than that IMHO.
 
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As far as shooting groups go, technique needs to change up a bit when shooting an AR10 in 308 compared to a bolt gun. The last range trip that I brought it, took me a ~30 rounds to remember how to stack shots. I went down the rabbit hole of messing with parts, loads, etc, just to come back to my technique. Shooting 308 gassers well doesn’t always come easy
 
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What techniques need to be changed up when shooting a semi auto? Im honestly curious, i only shoot bolt guns. But been thinking about getting into a semi auto.
 
Da fuk with the 3 rd or 5 rd or even the 10 rd groups.

Cold barrel, put 1 round down range.
Where do you hit ?
Nothing else matters.
End-of-story.

Oh wait bad guy......let me try and get a 1 inch group on you real quick....mmk ?

Da fuk ?
Is bambi or smokey the bear going to give you a 5 shot opportunity ?
Maybe Tyrone will ?
Yea, right.
You get 1 shot that matters, make it count.
 
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BiggBeans said:
What techniques need to be changed up when shooting a semi auto? Im honestly curious, i only shoot bolt guns. But been thinking about getting into a semi auto.
Click to expand...
If your fundamentals are already sound, then no changes needed. Otherwise a semiauto large frame will expose weaknesses more readily than a bolt gun and force you to improve. Less margin for error when shooting the large frame semis.
 
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reubenski said:
Not true at all. Most of the time you get multiple shots.
Click to expand...
Only if the mofo is tied to a tree....even bambi or smokey will move once the noise starts.
If you plan on shooting paper, remember 1 thing, paper is inanimate, it doesn't move or think.
Is paper what you're planning to protect yourself from ?
You get 1 shot, the next you had better be able to understand how to lead your target.

PROVE-ME-WRONG.
That's a period there at the end and it is very important.
 
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It's really a test of not only your rifle/ammo combination but the shooters ability to consistently apply the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Standing up and rebuilding your firing position between shots is another good exercise.
 
My 20" SFAR is about 1 MOA with 168gr Hornady Superformance ammo.... with me shooting it.
With MilSurp 147gr ammo it opens up to be about 3 MOA.
On a bench with bipod and bags it would probably look better.
 
BiggBeans said:
What techniques need to be changed up when shooting a semi auto? Im honestly curious, i only shoot bolt guns. But been thinking about getting into a semi auto.
Click to expand...

Lock time: (put super simple - you can always Google the definition if you want) is the time from when the trigger breaks to when the primer is struck. Some gun designs will vary in firing pin design.

Lock time in a bolt action rifle is significantly faster than in an AR due to their designs and the relationship between the trigger, hammer (AR), and firing pin.

Any flinch, muscling in, anticipation, trigger manipulation flaws etc... are exacerbated (best word I can come up with at the moment) when shooting an AR platform over a bolt gun.
 
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Like a couple others here, I'm a big fan of the cold bore shot for determining accuracy in the field. However, you have to determine which load is the most accurate for that CBS by shooting groups at the range before you zero the rifle for the initial shot.

To be fair though, I don't think that criteria was mentioned by the OP in his post though.

Funny little thing that happened to me once: The only deer I've ever whiffed on was so busy chasing a doe that he just stood there at the shot and let me chamber another round. I did not miss a second time.

95% of the secondary pigs I shoot are running after that initial shot though.
 
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My dad gifted me a Rem700 mountain rifle chambered in 270win when I was 13 or 14. The first time I went out with it, an 8pt wt buck let me zing 4 shots into his general direction, at a distance of no more than 100 y, before he got bored and walked off.

Two years ago, I shot a buck and less than 15 minutes later I shot spike that was sniffing the first’s dead corpse. Shot distance, less than 70 y.

Last year, I shot a buck and by the time I found him, tagged him, and made it back to my blind, I had a spike walking in on my position. Shot him too. Shot distance, less than 70 y.

The only thing you can say definitively about deer is that they’re not predictable.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the OP. And, shooting live targets proves nothing about precision.
 
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Jgault said:
How do you like the 243 in a ar platform? I’ve been toying with the idea of building one, I’ve always liked the cartridge.
Click to expand...
It's my favorite of the ARs I have. Outstanding accuracy and minimal recoil - I like to put first time shooters behind the scope and have them hitting steel at distance within a shot or two.
 
Just the other day. Banging steel and didn't even see them till they walked into my FOV. Sent a few more, they barely startled at the lead bouncing off steel. Had to stop shooting because they walked in front of the targets. Deer aren't that smart, and often stand around after near misses.
20230429_193224.jpg
 
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Deer on the range is a common occurrence at the Texas Precision Matches in Cawthon. So much so that no one mentions them.

A few years ago, we sent my son to the Whittington Center in Raton NM for their wilderness adventure camp. He said they had to chase the pronghorns off the skeet fields before they could shoot. And, the phs would interrupt the skeet sessions, on occasion.
 
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A good barrel and good ammo. I expect 1.25MOA or better on any given group. I mean out of 500 rounds I expect over 98% to be less than 1.25 MOA. If they are, I am happy. I am much more concerned about consistency than the tiniest groups. Out of that 500 rounds there will be plenty of tiny little groups. But there will also be plenty of 1-1.25MOA groups. If the max spread is less than 1.25MOA over any number of rounds, you cant go wrong!!
 
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Jgault said:
With the M&p10 I can consistently stay within 1.5 inches at 200 yards minus the shots that were clearly user error. I’m sure a better shooter could improve upon my performance. With my built 308 it’s usually about a half inch to 3/4 inch bigger groups. I don’t know if my m&p10 was just built when the guys were having a good day, but it’s a better rifle than it has the right to be for it’s price.
Click to expand...
I agree with this. My M&P10 is my go to rifle. Dead on accurate and eats literally everything with the exception of a case of ZQ1 that wouldn't cycle the bolt. 1000s of steel case and various other rounds and not a single failure. For what I paid it's worth it's weight in gold.
 
sevensix2 said:
I agree with this. My M&P10 is my go to rifle. Dead on accurate and eats literally everything with the exception of a case of ZQ1 that wouldn't cycle the bolt. 1000s of steel case and various other rounds and not a single failure. For what I paid it's worth it's weight in gold.
Click to expand...
Another M&P-10 fan, here.

Over 4-k rounds down the pipe and it can hold 1” at 100 yards with Outback, Federal GMM and others. 10 round groups may have a flyer from the ragged one-hole group.

8” 10 round groups at 700 yards, if we allow the flyer.

Never any mag dumps. Might be why it is still doing so well.

Good to know it’s easy to replace the barrel if I ever feel the need. Probably never will…

My Fulton .308 does .8" 100 yard 10 round groups without the flyers. It’s a heavy bench gun.
 
n2ishun said:
Da fuk with the 3 rd or 5 rd or even the 10 rd groups.

Cold barrel, put 1 round down range.
Where do you hit ?
Nothing else matters.
End-of-story.

Oh wait bad guy......let me try and get a 1 inch group on you real quick....mmk ?

Da fuk ?
Is bambi or smokey the bear going to give you a 5 shot opportunity ?
Maybe Tyrone will ?
Yea, right.
You get 1 shot that matters, make it count.
Click to expand...
I can’t help but shoot twice.
 
AR 10 is capable of fine accuracy...while testing two extremes 225 grELDM and 130 gr Speer.
The crap ammo was a 1000 bulk purchase of dirty primed of LC 308 brass, loaded on Dillion progressive, with old 748 powder needed to get rid of it & the primers. The first 5 went into .3" thought it was a fluke, next 5 into .4" so after shooting the 225 gr ELDM load, that was disappointing, I decided to just ran the crap ammo again to compare, ran 6 shots because I thought the one off was my fault and it went into the group ...this Proof barrel likes this combo, dirty LC primed brass, W748, and Speer 130, super cheap super accurate...but it's not a long range load, and mostly useless except for close range varmints...but the barrel loves it. No brass prep, no match bullets, long jump to rifling, no weighing, or sorting, & loaded on a progressive. It is what it is...and I'm sometimes amazed at the accuracy of the AR platform, while slaming cartridges in and out of the chamber in somewhat violent fashion.
 

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River44 said:
I see no reason why anyone would settle for anything less than a 3 shot 1moa @100 yards
Click to expand...
I tend to agree, should be able to get 1 moa, 3 shot groups consistently...but sometimes it takes a barrel change. I find quite a few of the cheaper brands not up to the task...the percentage goes way up with a quality barrel. But a few cheap barrels will shoot pretty good...sometimes.
 
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Triton225 said:
So, what is acceptable accuracy out of sub 2k$ ar10's?
Especially interested in the ruger SFAR experiences. Have seen some reviews that 4 moa is being acceptable, maybe I expect too much and comparing to bolt gun experience am I being unfair to think 2 moa is decent and 1moa is standard(AR10s)?
Click to expand...
I had a beater that I built for less than 500 years ago with a ss BCA bull barrel that I paid 50 for on black friday. I wanted to see how cheap I could build a 308. It was more accurate than my kac, lmt and aero. I posted pics in the group so price should doesn't dictate result. Way too much evidence to support that view

that said, MOA is the acceptable minimum standard
 
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Many chase the accuracy gods on semis and loose reliability in the end

I am happy with 1 moa through a semi as long as it will run a ton of rounds with zero malfunctions

If I get better than .75 great but not looking to get things so tight it gets dirty and malfunctions

Things I demand are first round cold bore consistency and ten rds group with no fliers
I want it to shoot hot in same general place as cold
 
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