Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
depends on the bolt action. If you take a gap ar-10 and compare it to an of the shelf rem. 700, it could. If you compare it to say a gap cruisader, you will get about 1/2 moa out of the ar-10 and 3/8 or better out of the bolt gun. This is all simply because of the moving parts and loss of gas to run the action in the ar-10
depends on the bolt action. If you take a gap ar-10 and compare it to an of the shelf rem. 700, it could. If you compare it to say a gap cruisader, you will get about 1/2 moa out of the ar-10 and 3/8 or better out of the bolt gun. This is all simply because of the moving parts and loss of gas to run the action in the ar-10
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
And more importantly is can the shooter drive the AR-10 as good as the bolt gun to get the most out of the AR-10? Not many can.
And more importantly is can the shooter drive the AR-10 as good as the bolt gun to get the most out of the AR-10? Not many can.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
Randy is right,
Comparing custom AR-10 to a boltgun, its almost 90% about the shooter... always the shooter.
A boltgun is more forgiving to our mistakes. I have seen guys with something like a Noveske AR-10 beat a bolt gun shooter across the course especially at range because the shooter was good, but up close the boltgun wins, driven right it all changes after 200 yards.
Randy is right,
Comparing custom AR-10 to a boltgun, its almost 90% about the shooter... always the shooter.
A boltgun is more forgiving to our mistakes. I have seen guys with something like a Noveske AR-10 beat a bolt gun shooter across the course especially at range because the shooter was good, but up close the boltgun wins, driven right it all changes after 200 yards.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
what about the fact that in a bolt gun you can taylor your rounds a bit more when reloading. Fire forming brass, adjust seating from the lands ect.. I know it is suggested to full size brass used on semi auto and you are limited to mag lenght as far as seating depth goes.
what about the fact that in a bolt gun you can taylor your rounds a bit more when reloading. Fire forming brass, adjust seating from the lands ect.. I know it is suggested to full size brass used on semi auto and you are limited to mag lenght as far as seating depth goes.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
I don't know. I am building an AR10 right now.
I still prefer bolt guns over gas guns, but for what I do right now the gas gun seems like the better choice.
We will see.
I don't know. I am building an AR10 right now.
I still prefer bolt guns over gas guns, but for what I do right now the gas gun seems like the better choice.
We will see.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
I know I cant shoot my AR10 T as well as I can shoot my boltgun. It took me awhile just to able to shoot less than 1MOA 5 shot groups.
I know I cant shoot my AR10 T as well as I can shoot my boltgun. It took me awhile just to able to shoot less than 1MOA 5 shot groups.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekennedy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">depends on the bolt action. If you take a gap ar-10 and compare it to an of the shelf rem. 700, it could. If you compare it to say a gap cruisader, you will get about 1/2 moa out of the ar-10 and 3/8 or better out of the bolt gun. This is all simply because of the moving parts and loss of gas to run the action in the ar-10 </div></div>
The .125 or smaller in accuracy difference all get lost in the field or even on the firing line in a match. Wobble factor erases all that. I have seen some high power shooters all get wrappred around with a 1/4 minute difference in accuracy they get on the bench and have a 9 ring hold.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ekennedy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">depends on the bolt action. If you take a gap ar-10 and compare it to an of the shelf rem. 700, it could. If you compare it to say a gap cruisader, you will get about 1/2 moa out of the ar-10 and 3/8 or better out of the bolt gun. This is all simply because of the moving parts and loss of gas to run the action in the ar-10 </div></div>
The .125 or smaller in accuracy difference all get lost in the field or even on the firing line in a match. Wobble factor erases all that. I have seen some high power shooters all get wrappred around with a 1/4 minute difference in accuracy they get on the bench and have a 9 ring hold.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey - is yours customized?
would it be correct if i said going for accuracy go for bolt action. for getting fairly accurate rounds down range fast - AR10.
</div></div>
Not a custom just an AR LES10TN. As I was told by Armalite that this rifle being a military contract goes through a second set of inspection and was tuned to squeezed more accuracy out of it. I didn't expect benchrest accuracy out of my AR10 since that's not what they were made for.
Like what they mentioned above the boltgun is more forgiving and the AR10 takes some getting used to. And yeah your pretty much right on the money.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey - is yours customized?
would it be correct if i said going for accuracy go for bolt action. for getting fairly accurate rounds down range fast - AR10.
</div></div>
Not a custom just an AR LES10TN. As I was told by Armalite that this rifle being a military contract goes through a second set of inspection and was tuned to squeezed more accuracy out of it. I didn't expect benchrest accuracy out of my AR10 since that's not what they were made for.
Like what they mentioned above the boltgun is more forgiving and the AR10 takes some getting used to. And yeah your pretty much right on the money.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey - is yours customized?
would it be correct if i said going for accuracy go for bolt action. for getting fairly accurate rounds down range fast - AR10.
</div></div>
ye thats about right
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gau17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Joey - is yours customized?
would it be correct if i said going for accuracy go for bolt action. for getting fairly accurate rounds down range fast - AR10.
</div></div>
ye thats about right
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
To me it comes down to the distances it will be used for. Under 800, a sub moa gas gun for me is accurate enough to make consistant hits. Over 800, I like the idea of having as accurate a rifle as possible to compensate for the many deficencies of the guy driving it. I am a consistant 3/4 moa shooter with my Gap ar10, while my shooting buddy is a half inch shooter with the same rifle and ammo. Although I am always trying to do better, at this point, I am more focused on my wind calls and figuring out environmental factors at distance.
To me it comes down to the distances it will be used for. Under 800, a sub moa gas gun for me is accurate enough to make consistant hits. Over 800, I like the idea of having as accurate a rifle as possible to compensate for the many deficencies of the guy driving it. I am a consistant 3/4 moa shooter with my Gap ar10, while my shooting buddy is a half inch shooter with the same rifle and ammo. Although I am always trying to do better, at this point, I am more focused on my wind calls and figuring out environmental factors at distance.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA.
I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3wide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA. </div></div>
If that is indeed happening then they need to relook at their loads because they are not only beating the shit out of the brass but the rifle as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3wide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA. </div></div>
If that is indeed happening then they need to relook at their loads because they are not only beating the shit out of the brass but the rifle as well.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
If you're doing well under 1MOA and even under 1/2MOA, there's no practical difference. A marksman can hit what's in the sights.
The one thing that constantly bugs me about these forums is how finely folks slice their questions and answers. It is unreasonable to demand that a firearm does this, or that, but not a 1/2MOA more. Most shooters, myself included, will only rarely perform to an equally demanding standard, and I think it borders on high egotism to blithely natter about marksmanship and accuracy in such dilletante terms.
Target up, shooter ready, send it, hit. Or miss. End of conversation.
Greg
If you're doing well under 1MOA and even under 1/2MOA, there's no practical difference. A marksman can hit what's in the sights.
The one thing that constantly bugs me about these forums is how finely folks slice their questions and answers. It is unreasonable to demand that a firearm does this, or that, but not a 1/2MOA more. Most shooters, myself included, will only rarely perform to an equally demanding standard, and I think it borders on high egotism to blithely natter about marksmanship and accuracy in such dilletante terms.
Target up, shooter ready, send it, hit. Or miss. End of conversation.
Greg
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3wide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA. </div></div>
If that is indeed happening then they need to relook at their loads because they are not only beating the shit out of the brass but the rifle as well. </div></div>
Or they are using soft brass (like Federal). Glenn Zediker (David Tubb's publisher) has a PDF on his website, zediker.com, that discusses M14 brass and reloading (Lake City brass is his choice) and states it only gets a total of 4 firings IIRC before getting pitched in the trash if you want to avoid case separation. The gun is that hard on brass.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dmg308</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 3wide</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a couple friends with Springfield Loaded M1A's. They experience is the guns is hard on brass, ripping the rims up and not getting but 1 or 2 reloads before the brass is done. One guy actually had a case seperate in the chamber on ejection! They get 1.25 MOA, gun is pribibly a 1MOA. </div></div>
If that is indeed happening then they need to relook at their loads because they are not only beating the shit out of the brass but the rifle as well. </div></div>
Or they are using soft brass (like Federal). Glenn Zediker (David Tubb's publisher) has a PDF on his website, zediker.com, that discusses M14 brass and reloading (Lake City brass is his choice) and states it only gets a total of 4 firings IIRC before getting pitched in the trash if you want to avoid case separation. The gun is that hard on brass.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
I have a GAP dpms lr 308 that will shoot as good as a bolt gun with fed gold match. but seems to not like other ammo very much. 1/2 moa with fed gold match and opened to 1"+ with black hills and hornady. My bolt guns are a little less picky.
Brass is also not quite as pretty after being shot with it, but hey its semi-auto and the brass is still usable.
I have a GAP dpms lr 308 that will shoot as good as a bolt gun with fed gold match. but seems to not like other ammo very much. 1/2 moa with fed gold match and opened to 1"+ with black hills and hornady. My bolt guns are a little less picky.
Brass is also not quite as pretty after being shot with it, but hey its semi-auto and the brass is still usable.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
Lots of confusion about gas systems. Read a comment from highly regarded gas guru, and it may have been Robert Whitley, that in testing a barrel without a gas block he saw a very minor INCREASE in chronographed velocity. Don't that fly in the face of common perceptions? (ETA) To be clear, the barrel was drilled for a gas vent, might actually have been drilled close to .1 which is over-size, and the chronograph showed an extra 25fps w/o gas block and tube installed.
If the AR isn't losing any velocity due to the gas system, put that myth to rest. If your brass is beat up, just maybe you need to extend the gas vent a couple inches so the bolt unlocks when the bullet has exited the barrel? Another factor is chamber oal. Anyone shooting a precision AR-10 is not likely to be blowing mil-surp rounds through it. A short oal chamber will make any weapon shine forth as a beacon to accuracy and preserve the longevity of your brass. Might also want to snip a coil or two off your ejector spring.
Lots of confusion about gas systems. Read a comment from highly regarded gas guru, and it may have been Robert Whitley, that in testing a barrel without a gas block he saw a very minor INCREASE in chronographed velocity. Don't that fly in the face of common perceptions? (ETA) To be clear, the barrel was drilled for a gas vent, might actually have been drilled close to .1 which is over-size, and the chronograph showed an extra 25fps w/o gas block and tube installed.
If the AR isn't losing any velocity due to the gas system, put that myth to rest. If your brass is beat up, just maybe you need to extend the gas vent a couple inches so the bolt unlocks when the bullet has exited the barrel? Another factor is chamber oal. Anyone shooting a precision AR-10 is not likely to be blowing mil-surp rounds through it. A short oal chamber will make any weapon shine forth as a beacon to accuracy and preserve the longevity of your brass. Might also want to snip a coil or two off your ejector spring.
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're doing well under 1MOA and even under 1/2MOA, there's no practical difference. A marksman can hit what's in the sights.
The one thing that constantly bugs me about these forums is how finely folks slice their questions and answers. It is unreasonable to demand that a firearm does this, or that, but not a 1/2MOA more. Most shooters, myself included, will only rarely perform to an equally demanding standard, and I think it borders on high egotism to blithely natter about marksmanship and accuracy in such dilletante terms.
Target up, shooter ready, send it, hit. Or miss. End of conversation.
Greg </div></div>
Good for you Greg +1000. This is what I was thinking the hole time. As my old coach beat into me, its the nut behind the butt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you're doing well under 1MOA and even under 1/2MOA, there's no practical difference. A marksman can hit what's in the sights.
The one thing that constantly bugs me about these forums is how finely folks slice their questions and answers. It is unreasonable to demand that a firearm does this, or that, but not a 1/2MOA more. Most shooters, myself included, will only rarely perform to an equally demanding standard, and I think it borders on high egotism to blithely natter about marksmanship and accuracy in such dilletante terms.
Target up, shooter ready, send it, hit. Or miss. End of conversation.
Greg </div></div>
Good for you Greg +1000. This is what I was thinking the hole time. As my old coach beat into me, its the nut behind the butt
Re: AR10 Vs Bolt Action
There's a difference in the basic specs for the .308 and the 7.62x51 NATO case
Win finalized the spec for the .308 Winchester before the USGI spec for the 7.62x51 NATO was fully developed. The subsequent development added a fair number of grains of brass to the base/web area of the case because head separations were too common out of the M-14 rifle and other weapons using this chambering.
So it logically follows that military brass will function better and survive for more reloadings than commercial casings. Bolt guns will not have the same problem to a similar degree.
Military brass may have never been designed for reloading, but the reliability demands on that brass often lead to improvments that make it better for reloading anyway. I think this is clearly the situation with the 7.62x51.
Greg
There's a difference in the basic specs for the .308 and the 7.62x51 NATO case
Win finalized the spec for the .308 Winchester before the USGI spec for the 7.62x51 NATO was fully developed. The subsequent development added a fair number of grains of brass to the base/web area of the case because head separations were too common out of the M-14 rifle and other weapons using this chambering.
So it logically follows that military brass will function better and survive for more reloadings than commercial casings. Bolt guns will not have the same problem to a similar degree.
Military brass may have never been designed for reloading, but the reliability demands on that brass often lead to improvments that make it better for reloading anyway. I think this is clearly the situation with the 7.62x51.
Greg
