Are Defiance actions really this hard to run in dirty conditions?

[S3th]

Defiances response:
" A couple things... First, our newer actions including our Ruckus now come with a little more clearance. The newer actions also have a straight bolt handle design. Second, shops go with our actions because we offer more customizable options than just about any other action out there, including variants with their branding, which is important for businesses. Also, we have sold countless more actions than most of our competitors, with many shooters who use them in the most extreme environments without issue, which some of have even noted their experiences here. That's not to say that issues don't arise, which EVERY manufacturer does/will experience, but when you sell exponentially more, you're also more likely to hear about an issue more than from another manufacturer. Lastly, we're not going to play the game of attacking other manufacturers and/or their designs. We love our competition, we're friends with many of them, and we respect the other companies out there who continue to push innovation, design, and the sport in general. As a company that made it's name with customization and options, it's great to see more options on the market for shooters, period."

 

[jcmullis2]

Perfect example of the downside of tight tolerances. I love my defiance actions but I don’t use them for hunting in the swamps of Florida. Nothing good can come from it.
Good information, Thanks for posting it

 

[ShtrRdy]

Interesting. I feel better about my 1965 Remington 700 action build up into a 300 Win Mag for hunting.

 

[hereinaz]

Arizona can do the same thing, which is why my custom action of choice is the Nucleus from American Rifle Company. All their actions are designed to run in terrible field conditions.

 

[gnochi]

Perfect example of the downside of tight tolerances. I love my defiance actions but I don’t use them for hunting in the swamps of Florida. Nothing good can come from it.
Good information, Thanks for posting it

Tight *clearances*, not tight *tolerances*.

Clearance is how much gap there’s supposed to be, tolerance is how much that gap varies because it’s impossible to make everything the perfect size.

Tight clearances help with bolt alignment when you’re in battery, and reduce the feel of bolt slop when you’re not in battery. This comes at the expense of the ability to handle material that shouldn’t be there.

That said, I’ve heard that Defiance will loosen things up for you if you say you’re going to be in dusty/muddy/frozen/etc. environments a lot.

 

[308pirate]

Tight *clearances*, not tight *tolerances*.

Clearance is how much gap there’s supposed to be, tolerance is how much that gap varies because it’s impossible to make everything the perfect size.

Thank you thank you thank you

If I had a dollar for every time some gun forum tool wants to look knowledgeable by referring to fits as tolerances I'd be a millionaire.

Everyone take a hint: if you're not a machining, manufacturing, or engineering professional, please look this shit up and educate yourself before showing those who are how little you understand about how to things are put together and work.

 

[Terry Cross]

If you spec your Defiance properly (bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways) and use common sense with surface coatings, you have no issues.

If you spec the action too tight and get stupid with coatings, you will have issues.

The video is being quoted here as gospel across the board when it should not be.

Myself and others have purpose built rifles built on spec'd Defiances that are running excellently in bad conditions. I am pretty loyal to my suppliers but not to the extent I would put an officer or client in a bind by delivering something that is deficient in dirt, rain and snow.


./

 

[308pirate]

If you spec your Defiance properly (bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways) and use common sense with surface coatings, you have no issues.

If you spec the action too tight and get stupid with coatings, you will have issues.

The video is being quoted here as gospel across the board when it should not be.

Myself and others have purpose built rifles built on spec'd Defiances that are running excellently in bad conditions. I am pretty loyal to my suppliers but not to the exrent I would put an officer or client in a bind by delivering something that is deficient in dirt, rain and snow.


./

Sometimes the best coating is no coating at all. Nitriding the receiver adds just a few millionths to the internal dimensions from nitrogen diffusion into the steel. That's so small that it can be ignored in this particular application.

 

[holy cow]

The fellow said he had nothing in the chamber and was jacking the bolt back and forth. At around 1:13 into the video did I see a cartridge come out of the action?

 

[S3th]

If you spec your Defiance properly (bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways) and use common sense with surface coatings, you have no issues.

If you spec the action too tight and get stupid with coatings, you will have issues.

The video is being quoted here as gospel across the board when it should not be.

Myself and others have purpose built rifles built on spec'd Defiances that are running excellently in bad conditions. I am pretty loyal to my suppliers but not to the exrent I would put an officer or client in a bind by delivering something that is deficient in dirt, rain and snow.


./

I am curious about how their Ruckus are since they can come Nitrated and you don't spec it.

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

The fellow said he had nothing in the chamber and was jacking the bolt back and forth. At around 1:13 into the video did I see a cartridge come out of the action?

Definitely a round being ejected there. Funny how it wasn't picking up rounds when he cycles the bolt the first two or three times. What a great Remington action lol

 

[Tokay444]

Perfect example of the downside of tight tolerances. I love my defiance actions but I don’t use them for hunting in the swamps of Florida. Nothing good can come from it.
Good information, Thanks for posting it

You can have exactingly tight tolerance and still have a loose action with a lot clearance. You can even put a tight tolerance on the large clearance.
Edit. I’m late to the party train.

 

[308pirate]

I am curious about how their Ruckus are since they can come Nitrated and you don't spec it.

Nitriding is not a coating. Next question.

 

[holy cow]

Definitely a round being ejected there. Funny how it wasn't picking up rounds when he cycles the bolt the first two or three times. What a great Remington action lol

That's what I thought, running the bolt a couple times then all of a sudden 1 pops out of the chamber.

 

[308pirate]

That's what I thought, running the bolt a couple times then all of a sudden 1 pops out of the chamber.

But mah hunter safety training...........

 

[seansmd]

My deviant black nitrided 6.5CM saami built by Marc@Spartan lives in the CA desert, not big into cleaning and it runs like butter. Spent 3 days in the Nevada Fernley, Fallon dust which is still coming out of my gear and it ran clean for hundreds of rounds. All dirt and dust is not the same never shot there.

 

[pmclaine]

Definitely a round being ejected there. Funny how it wasn't picking up rounds when he cycles the bolt the first two or three times. What a great Remington action lol

That's what I thought, running the bolt a couple times then all of a sudden 1 pops out of the chamber.

and everyone wants to blame mishaps on the Walker trigger......its never the operator.

 

[jbuck88]

From the sounds of it. Sounded like he was chambering rounds up until the 1.18 mark or so. I think he started with a full magazine and empty chamber like stated.

It sounded like his action was stripping rounds out of the magazine and ejecting them below the frame.

 

[Edds]

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Utility-Cloth-Roll-314D/?N=5002385+3293241859&rt=rud

 

[S3th]

Nitriding is not a coating. Next question.

Correct, it is not a coating but it still adds thickness no matter how minimal. The main question for him was, how they spec the Ruckus bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways. Next answer, please.

 

[308pirate]

Correct, it is not a coating but it still adds thickness no matter how minimal.

A on average a few millions of an inch to at most a tenth or two in all directions. Anyone who sends their product to get nitrided and hasn't accounted for that should not be making or selling anything.

I've specced before and after spline go/no go gagues for internal splines in 4140 that needed to go to nitriding after broaching. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[JMGlasgow]

No. My Deviant runs just fine in dusty conditions within reason.

I've had to pull the bolt on my Remingtons and wipe the dirt off them as well.

Take care of your weapon and it will work fine.

 

[brianf]

this video is just a waste of bandwidth...the whole think makes no sense

 

[wade2big]

Definitely a round being ejected there. Funny how it wasn't picking up rounds when he cycles the bolt the first two or three times. What a great Remington action lol

His chamber was empty. Mag was full. It sounds as if he chambers a round every time. You just cant see it chambering and ejecting due to the camera angle.

 

[acudaowner]

take 1/2 of what you see and 80% of what you hear from other people with a grain of salt . he could really have a problem with his action he may really be playing a game and his action is fine he is the problem .

 

[Tony1320]

If you spec your Defiance properly (bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways) and use common sense with surface coatings, you have no issues.

If you spec the action too tight and get stupid with coatings, you will have issues.

The video is being quoted here as gospel across the board when it should not be.

Myself and others have purpose built rifles built on spec'd Defiances that are running excellently in bad conditions. I am pretty loyal to my suppliers but not to the exrent I would put an officer or client in a bind by delivering something that is deficient in dirt, rain and snow.


./

What would someone ask for when specing a Defiance action for bad conditions? Do you ask for a specific bolt diameter or just tell them you want it spec'd for bad conditions?

 

[XTREM HTR16]

What would someone ask for when specing a Defiance action for bad conditions? Do you ask for a specific bolt diameter or just tell them you want it spec'd for bad conditions?

@Defiance Machine might be able to chime in

 

[sleeplz]

Arizona can do the same thing, which is why my custom action of choice is the Nucleus from American Rifle Company. All their actions are designed to run in terrible field conditions.

I ran a 2 day match with a nucleus in NM. Never again.

 

[wade2big]

I ran a 2 day match with a nucleus in NM. Never again.

Which actions did you see that seemed to run better than others?

 

[sleeplz]

Which actions did you see that seemed to run better than others?

I grabbed a guys lone peak and ran the action while it was coated with dust. It sold me on it and ill carry the nucleus as a backup peice with 223 ammo.

 

[hereinaz]

I ran a 2 day match with a nucleus in NM. Never again.

Interesting, what happened?

 

[UpSideDown]

That's what I thought, running the bolt a couple times then all of a sudden 1 pops out of the chamber.

That would be a MAGAZINE issue, or a YOUTUBER issue, not an action issue.

 

[sleeplz]

Interesting, what happened?

Bolt lift became super heavy and it became easy to bind. I started to push my thumb directly behind the bolt to keep the bolt from binding. Made me realize why top guys don't run it.

 

[pmclaine]

Nitriding is not a coating. Next question.

Correct, it is not a coating but it still adds thickness no matter how minimal. The main question for him was, how they spec the Ruckus bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways. Next answer, please.

Look! Hurry! Its engineers fighting!

 

[Adam B]

I have seen this with cerakoted actions and bolts. Generally this isn’t an issues with nitrided or dlc coated actions.

 

[cobus13]

interesting, I was looking at getting the Ruckus and just swapping between barrels for comp and hunting, I guess I will have to re think this maybe.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Defiance makes some of the best actions on the market. Don't let that retarded video sway your decision.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

While I understand the concept and issues that the video is discussing but lets be honest here....you can CLEARLY see the M700 did not "baby foot" his original bolt cycle as the other guy did.

Sincerely,
Theis


.........
OT: I will pay someone to ship me a 5 gallon container of that moon dust shit!!

 

[FALex]

Hi,

While I understand the concept and issues that the video is discussing but lets be honest here....you can CLEARLY see the M700 did not "baby foot" his original bolt cycle as the other guy did.

Sincerely,
Theis


.........
OT: I will pay someone to ship me a 5 gallon container of that moon dust shit!!

if you’re seriously interested in wanting some moon dust, I can easily arrange that for you...I’ll just go out to my truck and shake my floor mats out! Lol!!

kidding aside, if you’d like some, shoot me a PM. Southern Idaho has just a tiny bit of moon dust.

 

[THEIS]

if you’re seriously interested in wanting some moon dust, I can easily arrange that for you...I’ll just go out to my truck and shake my floor mats out! Lol!!

kidding aside, if you’d like some, shoot me a PM. Southern Idaho has just a tiny bit of moon dust.

Hi,

Done.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Defiance Machine]

I am curious about how their Ruckus are since they can come Nitrated and you don't spec it.

What would someone ask for when specing a Defiance action for bad conditions? Do you ask for a specific bolt diameter or just tell them you want it spec'd for bad conditions?

The Ruckus can be spec'd, and yes, there are clearance options for dirtier conditions. @Terry Cross hit the nail on the head.

 

[BadAccountant]

People like a slick, tight action because when they're buying a custom action they think tight raceways = precision = precision downrange.

Compare tight defiance raceways with the much more generous ARC Mausingfield raceways in touch conditions and I think we know why that isn't the case.

 

[Terry Cross]

People like a slick, tight action because when they're buying a custom action they think tight raceways = precision = precision downrange.

Compare tight defiance raceways with the much more generous ARC Mausingfield raceways in touch conditions and I think we know why that isn't the case.

Why would you purposefully pick "tight Defiance raceways" to compare to anything else in tough conditions when you don't have to?

Why not compare a Defiance spec'd for tough conditions to whatever else you choose?


./

 

[S3th]

The Ruckus can be spec'd, and yes, there are clearance options for dirtier conditions. @Terry Cross hit the nail on the head.

Oh perfect... I wasn't aware you could with the Ruckus line. Thanks!

 

[BadAccountant]

Why would you purposefully pick "tight Defiance raceways" to compare to anything else in tough conditions when you don't have to?

Why not compare a Defiance spec'd for tough conditions to whatever else you choose?


./

I think that hits at the crux of what people think they want out of a custom action. I think there is a perception that a good "feel" of a tight action with tight raceways equates to precision on target. That clearly isn't the case, yet people still buy them for rough-duty use when they're more at home on the bench.

 

[scharfschutze762]

None of my defiance have any issue cycling with heavy dust or sand or snow/ice. Only time I ever ran into an issue was when early on the bolts were ceracoated or KG'd.. None of my bolts are ceracoated anymore. I prefer black oxide now..
Bullshit video IMO..

 

[hereinaz]

I guess I am genuinely curious why an action would be specced with tight clearances? Are there applications that it makes the difference?

My rifles are for hunting, and I do local PRS matches on occasion. After running my rifle, I don't have issues with the "slop" binding. I am practical, and ignorant of the finer points cause what I have now works 100% so far.

Do tight clearances make a difference in bench rest or some other application? I am ignorant on that.

Ultimately, I've learned that all the people blaming Defiance for failing or hard running because of conditions could avoid it by getting more clearance.

 

[AnimalMother224]

I cringe when people misuse Tolerance and Clearance. and im not even a good machinist .. im fucking awful

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

His chamber was empty. Mag was full. It sounds as if he chambers a round every time. You just cant see it chambering and ejecting due to the camera angle.

This should be obvious, but we need to discredit him somehow don't we?

The 700 owner is man handling his bolt with a bit more gusto than the Defiance owner as well. Planned out? Maybe... Theatrics in support of the video topic? Definitely...

The Defiance fan base is going to pick this apart, as you’d expect. If it were another MFG action, you can bet that fan base would be here on the defensive too.

 

[hollywood1981]

My defiance tenacity runs great so far. Slides in and out like butter.