I've been out of the comp scene for a while. Are no dial stages still prevalent? I'm debating on reticles for a new scope.
- Thread starter Gil P.
- Start date
In the series I shoot we get them everyone once in a while, but not very often
They do pop up from time to time still. Don't need a tree reticle to shoot them either, I've been running a non-tree reticle for years. Just make your wind corrections in 1/2 plate increments when holding over. Edge of plate, half plate of air, full plate of air, plate and a half, etc.
If it gets super long range and sporty winds then I'll hold under and use the horizontal reticle on the far targets.
If it gets super long range and sporty winds then I'll hold under and use the horizontal reticle on the far targets.
I've done non dial stages to over 1000 yards in matches with non tree reticles years back when they were the norm. Can be done but not as easy. Holding out in space in the lower quadrants with no points of reference slows you down and is not nearly as accurate. Not sure why anyone shooting matches now would use a non tree reticle unless they have it and don't want to buy another scope but if buying a scope for matches now like the OP it wouldn't be a smart move to buy a non tree reticle.
These stages are rare, and a lot of folks are moving away from the clutter of a Christmas tree reticle. Something like the MIL-C or the JTAC reticle are good examples.
Not just about no dial stages but speed in stages themselves. Hold overs are a way to speed up. I used a 10 mil hold over in a stage last weekend in a .22 match and was holding 2 mils of wind. Much faster than with a non tree reticle.
Not sure the "lot of folks" are who are moving away from tree reticles for clutter as most today are not cluttered at all but that's their decision. I wouldn't recommend a non tree to anyone wanting to get into match shooting now.
Pigg River will usually have at least one holdover stage in matches.
I don’t hold over unless threatened with physical violence. And even then I’ll probably still dial, but everyone is different.
You should try it and practice it. You will see the advantages when needed. The numbers on the reticle do the same as the numbers on the dial.
Thanks for the replies. This helps with my reticle choice. I've been looking at the MPCT2X, MPCT3X, AND GR2ID.
As an aside, I'm a little disappointed they removed milling stages. I always enjoyed those.
As an aside, I'm a little disappointed they removed milling stages. I always enjoyed those.
Any of those will work. I would choose the 2x also though.
And milling targets is a dying art. With all the LRF and it taking time from the match and not being able to run as many people through it has died off.
And milling targets is a dying art. With all the LRF and it taking time from the match and not being able to run as many people through it has died off.
I personally like the non-clutter and speed of the JTAC reticle.
I really don't find a tree useful.
I really don't find a tree useful.
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I've shot 3 different rimfire matches down here. One of them I've shot several times. I think there has been at least 1 no dial stage at each match.
I find it faster and easier to leave my scope zeroed at 50 and hold all the targets if there are 3 different ranges. If its 2 different targets at 100 yards I'll dial them.
I find it faster and easier to leave my scope zeroed at 50 and hold all the targets if there are 3 different ranges. If its 2 different targets at 100 yards I'll dial them.
Matty B (one of the better PRS shooters to date) uses an H2CMR. Mr. Jarecke above has won several two day events and almost never holds over. Most of the top PRS shooters are now dialing for wind and moving away from tree reticles.
While many thinks the reticle is too thin, the big takeaway on JTAC reticle was it was designed by guys at the top currently and they purposely left out the tree.
Personal preference of course. But the trend at the top is moving more and more away from holds or trees. Just the way it's going.
While many thinks the reticle is too thin, the big takeaway on JTAC reticle was it was designed by guys at the top currently and they purposely left out the tree.
Personal preference of course. But the trend at the top is moving more and more away from holds or trees. Just the way it's going.
Last two matches I’ve shot (a regional finale and a 2 day) had no dial (while on the clock) stages.
I’d still take a Jtac/Milc/etc and dialing over a tree reticle any day..
I’d still take a Jtac/Milc/etc and dialing over a tree reticle any day..
I think this has a lot to do with the stage times being more generous. There used to be more stages that MD's new 95+% of the people were going to time out. Now the pendulum has swung the other way in a 2 day match - 95% of shooters are going to finish every stage before the buzzer.
Targets continue to get smaller on stages as well as everything gets better (shooters, gear), and there is a reason there is a dot/tiny aiming point in the center of most reticles now. To quote a mutual friend of @Rob01 and I, "Your Mark 4 scope is more accurate than your Mark 4 eyeball". I was told this at Rifles Only 12 years ago when I was going to hold over and under on the Moving Chaos stage. All that being said, I still hold if targets are .5 MIL or bigger.
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I shot for S&B when the H2CMR came out and used it and it was a good reticle at the time. I would never go back to it. Why would I use a reticle that limits use. You can do the same thing with a tree reticle and more.
And saying oh this guy uses it and he does good so you should do it too is not a good argument. It just shows he practices and is a good shooter.
I'm kind of glad, dedicated hold over stages have kind of fallen by the way side. Present the shooters with a problem and allow them to solve it in the manner they best see fit. If that is holding over, cool. If that is dialing, cool.
As far as stage times getting more generous as @superde mentioned I think it depends on the place, K&M is still known for 90s, many PRS matches are going to 105s which is a good middle ground. I much prefer the longer time limits and smaller targets model. For lack of a less cringeworthy phrase; Put the "precision" back in Precision Rifle Series. When I go to K&M at the end of May, I'll be adjusting my shooting style fit the par times, probably more hold overs. When I go to Punisher in July with 105s times, I'll probably go back to dialing if the stage warrants it.
As far as stage times getting more generous as @superde mentioned I think it depends on the place, K&M is still known for 90s, many PRS matches are going to 105s which is a good middle ground. I much prefer the longer time limits and smaller targets model. For lack of a less cringeworthy phrase; Put the "precision" back in Precision Rifle Series. When I go to K&M at the end of May, I'll be adjusting my shooting style fit the par times, probably more hold overs. When I go to Punisher in July with 105s times, I'll probably go back to dialing if the stage warrants it.
Really? It's good another skill set that's falling by the wayside? You can see in this thread people are afraid to do holdovers. Why? Because they never do it or learn how to do it or never challenged to do it.
Hell just go to benchrest fine duplex reticle then as that's all you need if never holding. Weak 6mms, 30 pound rifles, limited movement etc. Make the full barricade benchrest transformation. LOL
That is not what I said and you know it. Using the stage design to encourage shooters to use a certain skill or skill set to clean the stage is a better approach. As an example, our MDs have a stage called Chaos, it's 12 shots on multiple targets at multiple ranges in a random order that the shooter must progress through, it's near impossible to get a 12 without holding over. That's good stage design, requiring holdover is not.
"Shooters must use holdover for this stage" is lazy on the MDs part
"Shooters must use holdover for this stage" is lazy on the MDs part
That's a good stage but requiring them to use it is also. Not lazy. It's forcing some out of their comfort zone and possibly showing them a missing spot in their training. Just like stages that make you shoot weakside. It's challenging the shooter and telling them how to shoot the stage. They already do it with the stage description. Adding they must use holds or weakside is not lazy but adding another element.
I disagree and it's fine if you disagree with me, we've agreed on plenty of other points on here.
Requiring it in the description is lazy on both accounts. If you want a shooter to use a skill, set the stage design up so that the most points can be scored by using the desired skill. Weak side is a perfect example. Again our local MDs have a stage that requires it, through design by using a roof top. Shooter must shoot X rounds from the left side of the roof, both feet on the ground, then the shooter will transition to the right side of the roof top and fire X rounds with both feet on the ground. It is near impossible for me as a righty to keep both feet on the ground and fire strong side.
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So if a match director makes a stage that it would be impossible to clean if you dial or designs it so you couldn't shoot it unless you shoot weakside he is smart and challenging but if he makes you hold for the stage or requires weakside he is lazy? Come on man in my best Biden voice. LOL
But not straying from the original point, shooters should be able to use the reticle for holds. If they never have to do it or aren't challenged then it's another skill set falling by the wayside.
Every stage is a hold over stage for me. I suck at dialing on the clock.
Come on Rob, you're reading comp is better than that. That stage design was lazy, we all know there's a lot of work an MD has to do.
I agree a shooter should be able to use their reticle and its a good skill but I feel there's a better way to test it than; "shooter will use holdovers"
I agree a shooter should be able to use their reticle and its a good skill but I feel there's a better way to test it than; "shooter will use holdovers"
@Mormegil87 I'll probably be there with you in May.
Even though K&M has 90 second par times, on my 5 trips to the Kahles match I've only held more than .5 on any target a few times. So holding on target for most of your shots negates the time to a certain extent.
Agreed. I haven't been there since 2018 or 2019.
My local/Barrel Maker Classic MD went from 2 minutes, to 90s, to 75s, back up to 105s. I think 105 is a good middle ground for holding or dialing depending on Stage design, props, target size etc. I'm probably a 50/50 split on holding vs dialing.
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I never said anyone should use anything. You decided to imply that for some reason. I gave examples. It's up to the individual to decide.
If you polled 1k shooters how often they don't dial, the holdover crowd would be an overwhelming minority.
The flip side to the "does that and more" is that you have all this reticle taking up FOV for something you use a few times a year. Some people don't notice the tree and it's like it's not there until they need it. Others see it and they don't like it.
There's no "right" answer.
And I didn’t say you did. I was saying I used the reticle you used as an example. What you did do is say this shooter uses this and implied it’s got to be better because he has won a match. Not the case.
You are also implying that I am saying hold over all the time. I am not. It’s that tool in the tool box to have and use when needed. Not every stage but when needed to get speed and accuracy to get points in a stage. And just because you say a poll would say this or that doesn’t make it true. Lol
A good reticle doesn’t effect your FOV either. You can see impacts and misses easily. I have used both style reticles a lot and having the reference points definitely helps make more accurate shots when a hold or quick correction is needed.
The skill stage for the peterson match last year was the no dial 3 distance one
Yes. Occasionally you’ll see no-dial stages, but even if you do, they trip up plenty of people because they are speed stages without dialing (duh, right?). There’s almost always a trade off with precision and speed, and depending on the size of targets, you’re “stacking errors” against yourself on small targets if you hold over. In addition to this, it’s easy to mess up a hold (“I held 2.3 instead of 3.3! Aargh!”).
It’s really up to you, but today’s targets have gotten so small, that most shooters don’t hold unless they have to. And by most, I mean the top 50 at a match. Put another way - most “top” shooters. This is why Matty B. uses the H2CMR and Clay, Austin, Tate and Justin developed the JTAC.
Reticles are a highly personal matter and that’s why it’s interesting to hear different perspectives from guys like me and Rob01 and weigh how you might want to handle a stage yourself.
It’s really up to you, but today’s targets have gotten so small, that most shooters don’t hold unless they have to. And by most, I mean the top 50 at a match. Put another way - most “top” shooters. This is why Matty B. uses the H2CMR and Clay, Austin, Tate and Justin developed the JTAC.
Reticles are a highly personal matter and that’s why it’s interesting to hear different perspectives from guys like me and Rob01 and weigh how you might want to handle a stage yourself.
Fixed
And that is where practice comes in to not have those mistakes. Also most good reticles now have .2 mil marks so not like years back with no marks between mils or even .5 marks. With .2 marks you can be as accurate as dialing if you practice it.
I would recommend a tree reticle, even if it's thinnish. You never know if it becomes the norm again. I've only had two actual no-dial stages in PRS in the last two years, several in NRL22 though.
I'm a huge supporter of reticle literacy. I've seen a ton of skilled shooters remain in the midpack because they'll time out dialing on a three distance, 3 or 4 positions stage and walk away with 5 impacts while me and a few other guys cleaned the stage using holdovers. I once had some trust issues in my turrets and shot a whole one day match dialed to zero, using my reticle, and it was massive confidence builder. No, I didn't come close to winning, but back then I sucked anyways.
I took second at the last regional qualifier and never dialed once on the clock, despite 6/8 stages having at least two distances to shoot at. A lot of guys were timing out the whole time, even with race turrets.
I've done holdovers now with the CFR MIL, Tremor3, JVCR, CCH, and MIL-XT reticles, and I can say that paired with dialing wind for closest targets, the furthest I've held out in the tree was a mil of windage. I wasn't sure about the every-other-mil-line windage marks, but you just use the windage on the roof of your box or the floor and it's fine.
CCH was the worst. I did in fact get lost in that reticle. The real issue is that there are dots everywhere and no way to tell what they're marking. Looking at the G4 reticle, I'd bet money those dots are near useless, especially since they're all spaced inconsistently. What a poop show. Best use of .5 MRAD dots seems to be in the MIL-XT, APR-2D etc. where it's clear what the dots are actually marking.
JVCR, PR2, SCR2 variants, MIL-XT are my preferred reticles. Quarter mil marks like the PR2, SCR2-1/4, etc. are very intuitive on the clock. I think you can make the MIL-C work though. The marks are wide enough that if you're dialing wind, you should be able to infer your point of impacts just fine.
I'm a huge supporter of reticle literacy. I've seen a ton of skilled shooters remain in the midpack because they'll time out dialing on a three distance, 3 or 4 positions stage and walk away with 5 impacts while me and a few other guys cleaned the stage using holdovers. I once had some trust issues in my turrets and shot a whole one day match dialed to zero, using my reticle, and it was massive confidence builder. No, I didn't come close to winning, but back then I sucked anyways.
I took second at the last regional qualifier and never dialed once on the clock, despite 6/8 stages having at least two distances to shoot at. A lot of guys were timing out the whole time, even with race turrets.
I've done holdovers now with the CFR MIL, Tremor3, JVCR, CCH, and MIL-XT reticles, and I can say that paired with dialing wind for closest targets, the furthest I've held out in the tree was a mil of windage. I wasn't sure about the every-other-mil-line windage marks, but you just use the windage on the roof of your box or the floor and it's fine.
CCH was the worst. I did in fact get lost in that reticle. The real issue is that there are dots everywhere and no way to tell what they're marking. Looking at the G4 reticle, I'd bet money those dots are near useless, especially since they're all spaced inconsistently. What a poop show. Best use of .5 MRAD dots seems to be in the MIL-XT, APR-2D etc. where it's clear what the dots are actually marking.
JVCR, PR2, SCR2 variants, MIL-XT are my preferred reticles. Quarter mil marks like the PR2, SCR2-1/4, etc. are very intuitive on the clock. I think you can make the MIL-C work though. The marks are wide enough that if you're dialing wind, you should be able to infer your point of impacts just fine.
And it’s a lot faster especially when you dial the mid range and hold over and under on the far and near targets. MDs can make it a good idea, but maybe change ruffles comfortable feathers.
I think most guys would be shocked how easy it is to hit a 2 MOA target with a good reticle inside 800 yds. If you're struggling to make hits with your reticle, I bet the reticle you're using isn't so great for it, or you just need practice. It's seriously not hard. Most guys I shoot with are terrified of dialing wind, because they might do it wrong. Once you incorporate something into your regular routine, it's a complete non-issue. I dial wind all the time now. People are afraid of stuff they haven't practiced.
Go practice, lol.
I was ROing (spotting) a stage at the Best of Texas 2day match a few years ago. The target was beyond a body of water And you could clearly see the wind direction in the ripples on the pond. One shooter, after droppping most (all?) of the points in the stage asked where he was missing.
“Hey, where were those shots falling?”
“Off the left side of the target.”
“Really, I dialed [something] for wind.”
“Well, the wind is moving right to left…”
“What? … … … Of fuck! I dialed the wrong way!”
Spotting impacts to adjust is huge if the terrain allows. Tending towards higher magnification, even if you have to use a supplemental red dot to get on target might help in that situation.
I'm leaning towards the mental aspect of being told the stage is a "no dial" stage, that the MD's are trying to get in the heads of the competitors, because folks who haven't practiced hold overs to become comfortable with holding over would be thinking about the holdover and have mental process overload on the clock, just another stressor to put on the shooter for that stage.
I'm not saying I'm particularly proficient at holding over, I shot a one day match entirely using holdovers to get used to it a couple years back. It was a fun day. Now it's just another tool in the bag to pull out as needed to solve whatever challenge I'm presented with in a stage in the plan I put together to solve it.
I'm not saying I'm particularly proficient at holding over, I shot a one day match entirely using holdovers to get used to it a couple years back. It was a fun day. Now it's just another tool in the bag to pull out as needed to solve whatever challenge I'm presented with in a stage in the plan I put together to solve it.
I think that this has been a good conversation that I’ve enjoyed reading. As a small time local MD of NRL22 and now PRS22 matches, I’ve never specifically designed a no dial stage, though there have been some required NRL22 stages that are that were.
I find it interesting whenever I hear competitors castigate MDs for their match style and particularly the use of the word “lazy”. If a MD was lazy, you wouldn’t have a match to shoot and complain about.
I will mix up stages to the best of my ability to both challenge top shooters and to ensure that newer shooters get some hits. There will often be stages that favor those who know their holdovers and are confident in using them. However, I’ve seen some shooters who practice enough and have efficiency of movement enough to dial these stages and still not time out.
I can tell you that there will always be some stage that will push you out of your comfort zone unless you have a full skill set.
I find it interesting whenever I hear competitors castigate MDs for their match style and particularly the use of the word “lazy”. If a MD was lazy, you wouldn’t have a match to shoot and complain about.
I will mix up stages to the best of my ability to both challenge top shooters and to ensure that newer shooters get some hits. There will often be stages that favor those who know their holdovers and are confident in using them. However, I’ve seen some shooters who practice enough and have efficiency of movement enough to dial these stages and still not time out.
I can tell you that there will always be some stage that will push you out of your comfort zone unless you have a full skill set.
I remember when anyone here who said that dialing for wind was a valid strategy in some instances was immediately shouted down by the PRS crowd.
Now that evidently the pendulum has swung the other way, the crowd is sure to follow
I think you're being argumentative for the sake of it, and I should know......
Yes, he is lazy. It takes much less time to write "this stage is no dial" (or whatever skill you want to force) on the stage description than to design a stage that rewards that same skill purely through stage design.
I remember when anyone here who said that dialing for wind was a valid strategy in some instances was immediately shouted down by the PRS crowd.
Now that evidently the pendulum has swung the other way, the crowd is sure to follow
Yep....it still gets guys jumped on forums. Though not as much anymore.
Most of the guys who were doing it wouldn't say much about it online for this very reason.
Not at all. Not dialing is only part of the stage. Not all of it. He still has to put together a stage and then to add a difficulty and skill test says hold only. I can see why most are crying about them seeing the responses here. Easier to say the MD is lazy than look at yourself as lazy for not practicing a useful skill right?
