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Sidearms & Scatterguns Army REJECTS Glock 19X, "It's a shitty pistol that is not worth the Army's time and money." - General James C. McConville, Army Chief of Staff

Fig

Tenor in the howler choir
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2018
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LOL! Not really, Sig just barely beat them out, but I fucking hate Glock Fanbois!

 
It’s all politics, and retired generals...

Sig got the pistol contract.
Barrett got the MRAD contract. (while already having the m107 contract).
Barrett “sells” the SAW contract to geissele.
Sig gets the next gen m240 contract.
Sig gets the contract to make ammo for the MRAD, and next gen M240 (300 norma).

It’s all about who’s who, I don’t believe sig beat glock fairly.
 
The 320 platform is really, really good. Nothing wrong with Glocks, but the 320 is the best handgun platform to come along in a very, very long time. Maybe since the Hi Power.

Co workers unit just got them issued and he really, really likes it. Impressed how easy it is to shoot well.

He was a Beretta guy but now wants a good Safariland and hopes to buy his own M17.

Its all just bitching anyway.

In the scheme of things pistols are pretty low on the ladder and for all the bitchin about the M4 it really is a great tool.

Sometimes they get shit right.
 
Asking Army brass/DOD Procurement to set the standard for handgun excellence...……….

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Co workers unit just got them issued and he really, really likes it. Impressed how easy it is to shoot well.

He was a Beretta guy but now wants a good Safariland and hopes to buy his own M17.

Its all just bitching anyway.

In the scheme of things pistols are pretty low on the ladder and for all the bitchin about the M4 it really is a great tool.

Sometimes they get shit right.
blue-moon-march-2018.jpg
 
::looks around the range and classroom at soldiers handling their M17s::
"Welp I need to get the fuck out of this area before I get shot due to pure incompetence."

Was visiting a unit that was conducting an M17 range about two months ago. Unit shows up with a case full of brand new M17s... About half, in the limited time I was there, were brought back into the classroom with failures. In the limited time I was on the line, two had to be decked due to failure to eject.

Piece of absolute shit. But at least it is modular and tan. lol

*Opinion is formed after only experiencing a small sample size....But I'm sure the coming months will reaffirm these opinions lol

Love,

-A Glock Shooter
 
I too got to witness a unit's first outing with their M17s. Not confidence inspiring.

I also think that even if the guns work, 99.9% (of the small fraction that get issued a pistol) can't hit anything other than themselves with them. Even if they don't work it will probably not be strategically significant to the force.

TL;DR pistols don't matter and we only care so much because it's the easiest DOD gun to buy at the local guns shop.
 
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Both pistols passed all performance requirements. This was one of the first acquisition efforts that took real Soldier feedback as a metric to choose the winner...Soldiers choose the the Sig. Also, Sig sold the pistols at cost.

Hi,

Except every firearm adopted by SOCOM gets real users feedback during the T&E phase and shit is still fucked up; up to and including the very day SOCOM signs adoption papers they seek "fixes", lolol.

Sig sold at cost, hahahaha Ford dealership just had a commercial that I could by a new truck at dealer cost too.
Did big Army actually pull the vendor and supplier COGS that Sig pays?
Did big Army actually pull the machine run time vs manhours per each pistol?
Shit...does big Army even know how many manhours it takes per each pistol?
Entirely no way big Army knows what it cost Sig to make the pistol.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
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::looks around the range and classroom at soldiers handling their M17s::
"Welp I need to get the fuck out of this area before I get shot due to pure incompetence."

Was visiting a unit that was conducting an M17 range about two months ago. Unit shows up with a case full of brand new M17s... About half, in the limited time I was there, were brought back into the classroom with failures. In the limited time I was on the line, two had to be decked due to failure to eject.

Piece of absolute shit. But at least it is modular and tan. lol

*Opinion is formed after only experiencing a small sample size....But I'm sure the coming months will reaffirm these opinions lol

Love,

-A Glock Shooter
Sample of one, but I probably have 75k rounds through one with zero malfunctions. I have probably 25k through a 19x with only a couple of malfunctions. Each has some advantages, and both are good pistols, but IMO the sig is a good bit better than the glock. In real life situations, the difference is less than zero.
 
I too got to witness a unit's first outing with their M17s. Not confidence inspiring.

I also think that even if the guns work, 99.9% (of the small fraction that get issued a pistol) can't hit anything other than themselves with them. Even if they don't work it will probably not be strategically significant to the force.
A person has a better chance of dying from COVID than being (Intentionally) killed by a soldier with an M17. 😂

I will say that it is nice that they can swap frames to fit shooters better.
 
Hi,

Except every firearm adopted by SOCOM gets real users feedback during the T&E phase and shit is still fucked up; up to and including the very day SOCOM signs adoption papers they seek "fixes", lolol.

Sig sold at cost, hahahaha Ford dealership just had a commercial that I could by a new truck at dealer cost too.
Did big Army actually pull the vendor and supplier COGS that Sig pays?
Did big Army actually pull the machine run time vs manhours per each pistol?
Shit...does big Army even know how many manhours it takes per each pistol?
Entirely no way big Army knows what it cost Sig to make the pistol.

Sincerely,
Theis
Hi, nice to meet you. What company do you represent?

No such thing as a perfect firearm. However, Sig generally has more growing pains than most. Do you have any examples of recent SOCOM failings? Your probably going to tell me the AI is better than the MRAD right?

Yes the Army does know what it costs to make a M17/18. Certified cost and pricing is required per the contract. The Army's decision was based on price and Soldier feedback that's it.

I have both pistols and would have preferred the Glock.
 
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The M17 grip is very bad. The x modules are very good. Night and day. Has nothing to do with function, of course.
 
Lol, the article says the only reason Sig won is because they bundled ammo with it.


Sig won because for an agency the trigger pack being the controlled item is efficient as hell.

So when private dipshit somehow melts the grip off his gun....no big deal, no one except Private dummy is getting a negative letter in the SRB. Maybe even his Sgt will help him get a new frame if he is worth salvaging.

Sig Pro shop has all the parts blister packed ready to go for counter purchase right there. As long as you dont lose the fire control all is good.
 
Hi,

Umm that would be:

Directly own:
1. Hoplite Arms
2. Genesis Ballistics Solutions


Consulting basis Monthly:
1. EDGE (Formerly EDIC) corporation in UAE.
2. Transvaro in Turkey
3. RomArm in Romania
4. Trident Defense in Ukraine

Consulting basis per RFI/RFS:
Defense Trade Advisory Group
National Defense Industry Association
Defense Security Cooperation Agency


First Retirement:
DDTC

And yourself?

Sincerely,
Theis
 
honestly i think all of sigs recent pistols are garbage....i really dont see why everyone is so hot in the pants of them.....the triggers all universally suck, and the slides are all too tall.....

the reason sig won the contract is because they were the cheapest pistol that met the standards....pure and simple.

its funny, everyone shits on military equipment as "being made by the lowest bidder".....but all of a sudden when it comes to SIG, everyone acts like the military choosing it proves its "the better" pistol....huh?

if i was choosing for pure performance, i would have chosen the M9A3
if i was choosing for history of reliability, i would have chosen the Glock
if i was choosing something to fill a holster.....i would have gone with Sig.
 
honestly i think all of sigs recent pistols are garbage....i really dont see why everyone is so hot in the pants of them.....the triggers all universally suck, and the slides are all too tall.....

the reason sig won the contract is because they were the cheapest pistol that met the standards....pure and simple.

its funny, everyone shits on military equipment as "being made by the lowest bidder".....but all of a sudden when it comes to SIG, everyone acts like the military choosing it proves its "the better" pistol....huh?
I think the slide is too tall, which gives the Glock its major advantage which is that it is a flatter shooter. The triggers on the ones I have tried are universally good, though most have the Gray Guns trigger. Generally, as far as striker triggers go, I think the group that has a more fully cocked striker and auto trigger return, like the VP9, 320 and Walther, are better feeling, and in the long run a better trigger design. In the other group, only Steyr has really made one that avoids all of the pitfalls of the weird takeup, rock hard wall, creep, then break. It was a 1.0 system, and kind of ingenious at the time, but should probably die now.
 
Hi,

Umm that would be:

Directly own:
1. Hoplite Arms
2. Genesis Ballistics Solutions


Consulting basis Monthly:
1. EDGE (Formerly EDIC) corporation in UAE.
2. Transvaro in Turkey
3. RomArm in Romania
4. Trident Defense in Ukraine

Consulting basis per RFI/RFS:
Defense Trade Advisory Group
National Defense Industry Association
Defense Security Cooperation Agency


First Retirement:
DDTC

And yourself?

Sincerely,
Theis
Nice resume!
 
So good it doesn't even need a shooter

Throw it at 'em if you run out of grenades

View attachment 7501890

The M17/M18 doesn’t have this issue, the non safety models are the ones effective and yes, even the “fixed” ones have fired in holsters.

The safety blocks what needs to be blocked to keep them from going off unprovoked. Sig did have another issue with the M17 that’s unrelated and all of them since May 2020 are solid.

I wouldn’t touch a non safety P320 with a 10’ pole.
 
Hi,

Umm that would be:

Directly own:
1. Hoplite Arms
2. Genesis Ballistics Solutions


Consulting basis Monthly:
1. EDGE (Formerly EDIC) corporation in UAE.
2. Transvaro in Turkey
3. RomArm in Romania
4. Trident Defense in Ukraine

Consulting basis per RFI/RFS:
Defense Trade Advisory Group
National Defense Industry Association
Defense Security Cooperation Agency


First Retirement:
DDTC

And yourself?

Sincerely,
Theis
1608053289811.gif
 
Sig won because of the price.

While not strictly LPTA, their cost was soo much lower than Glock, that despite Glock actually beating it in the reliability testing, they selected SIG because they basically gave them away.

In the big scheme of things, people who actually need to use a pistol in combat (SOCOM) will continue to use Glocks and people who don't will get the SIG, much like the Beretta.

Its not that SIG is a terrible gun, but when people say it beat glock its kind of a misleading statement. An updated M9 such as the M9A3 with G trigger would have been a much more fiscally responsible decison as accessories/holsters and training would not have to be modified.
 
Hi,

Except every firearm adopted by SOCOM gets real users feedback during the T&E phase and shit is still fucked up; up to and including the very day SOCOM signs adoption papers they seek "fixes", lolol.

Sig sold at cost, hahahaha Ford dealership just had a commercial that I could by a new truck at dealer cost too.
Did big Army actually pull the vendor and supplier COGS that Sig pays?
Did big Army actually pull the machine run time vs manhours per each pistol?
Shit...does big Army even know how many manhours it takes per each pistol?
Entirely no way big Army knows what it cost Sig to make the pistol.

Sincerely,
Theis
Its possible depending on the contract and audit requirements either through the sponsor agency or DCMA.

Most of these types of contracts grant random inspections and audits as requested by the Contracting Officer or Prime COR. The bigger the contract and higher risk, the more likely and frequent this happens.

And the $10,000,000 question ..........have you seen Sigs Ads? $100 from every pistol probally goes to their marketing budget.
 
Was visiting a unit that was conducting an M17 range about two months ago. Unit shows up with a case full of brand new M17s... About half, in the limited time I was there, were brought back into the classroom with failures. In the limited time I was on the line, two had to be decked due to failure to eject.

Piece of absolute shit. But at least it is modular and tan. lol

Love,

-A Glock Shooter
I have never fired a new handgun that did not have an issue in the first 500 rounds. Every one including my Glocks have had at least one malfunction in the first 500, usually the first 150. Why would you judge a brand new gun on a simple malfunction when it isn't broken in yet?
 
It all comes down to money and who will sell the cheaper deal up the pipeline.

rumor has it that AI was by far the preferred choice for the ASR and then Barret came back last minute and undercut their original price. Everybody sleeping with everybody, just trying to keep their foot in the door.
 
It all comes down to money and who will sell the cheaper deal up the pipeline.

rumor has it that AI was by far the preferred choice for the ASR and then Barret came back last minute and undercut their original price. Everybody sleeping with everybody, just trying to keep their foot in the door.
Barret is a US company , AI is not.

That probably has a small influence, while they never admit it. What goes on in a down select meeting is rarely what is on the documentation.

IE, We pick what we want and massage the documentation to make it protest resistant.
 
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I have never fired a new handgun that did not have an issue in the first 500 rounds. Every one including my Glocks have had at least one malfunction in the first 500, usually the first 150. Why would you judge a brand new gun on a simple malfunction when it isn't broken in yet?
These weren’t your standard failures. They were being pulled from the line because they became inoperable. It wasn’t a case of “oh let me just tap/rack/bang” or “strip and rip” they were deadlined and put in a box for the armorer. Some were failing to fire every other round. Even at the end of the second day and over 500rds on some, they were still being pulled for failures.

Obviously pistols that aren’t broken in will have issues, I’m not negating that at all. I’m saying that this pistol was extremely disappointing in terms of performance out of the box. As I said, this is a limited sample size and is in no way reflective of the big picture.

My personal opinion at the end of the evolution can be summed up with this gif:
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I’m also not being issued this garbage so my opinion is just that of a random guy who won’t have to rely on it to save a life.
 
Hell have you every been Into a shop that is a "sig premium dealer"

They must have $10-20,000 worth of displays in each one

It’s just marketing, they’re a huge marketing company just like Vortex and Hornady. Unlike Vortex and Hornady though Sig actually puts out mostly quality products, those companies put out few quality products and a lot of mediocre and sub par quality products that they just market the shit out of.
 
Don't worry some soft skill transgender bi-confused worthless officer or NCO that hasn't seen its dick in 10 years will be less likely to ND themselves.

Maybe this is actually by design...........

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