ATACRs vs Zeiss

[mp0311]

Looking at getting a 4-20 ATACR or LRP S3 4-25, anyone have both? I've seen there could be some tunneling on the ATACR, which I could see getting annoying, is that really a problem? I can get the Zeiss, through various discounts, for like $800 less than the NF. I understand there's the durability factor with NF, but is there any real difference optically? There are a few things that do not matter too much to me like weight or durability. Also not too set on a specific reticle so that is not too much of an issue.

 

[longshot2000]

Both are great scopes. You will pay a premium on ATACR to be built for the military, and when all is said and done, you are getting great optics with either. $800 sounds like quite a discount. We sell both, but you might have a better deal.

 

[FuhQ]

Looking at getting a 4-20 ATACR or LRP S3 4-25, anyone have both? I've seen there could be some tunneling on the ATACR, which I could see getting annoying, is that really a problem? I can get the Zeiss, through various discounts, for like $800 less than the NF. I understand there's the durability factor with NF, but is there any real difference optically? There are a few things that do not matter too much to me like weight or durability. Also not too set on a specific reticle so that is not too much of an issue.

Zeiss… I have an ATACR F1 5-25x56, and an LRP S3 6-36x56. To my eyes, the glass in the Zeiss is better. And the Zeiss parallax is actually accurate.

 

[Huskydriver]

Looking at getting a 4-20 ATACR or LRP S3 4-25, anyone have both? I've seen there could be some tunneling on the ATACR, which I could see getting annoying, is that really a problem? I can get the Zeiss, through various discounts, for like $800 less than the NF. I understand there's the durability factor with NF, but is there any real difference optically? There are a few things that do not matter too much to me like weight or durability. Also not too set on a specific reticle so that is not too much of an issue.

Why either of those then if weight etc don't matter both are sub tier scopes to others in their class

 

[FuhQ]

Why either of those then if weight etc don't matter both are sub tier scopes to others in their class

Name a better sub-$2,500 MSRP scope, with as many features, as the LRP S3…

 

[Huskydriver]

Name a better sub-$2,500 MSRP scope, with as many features, as the LRP S3…

Where did he say he needed it to be a scope below 2500 msrp?

Tbh I would take a Steiner t6 over the Zeiss any day as well

 

[FuhQ]

Where did he say he needed it to be a scope below 2500 msrp?

Tbh I would take a Steiner t6 over the Zeiss any day as well

Re-read what you wrote… you said they are “sub-tier to others in their class”… Well, optics classes are typically dictated by their price ranges. So… My question still stands legitimate.

Steiners are great scopes. I haven’t looked through one in 20 years, but I still hear good things. Plus, they’re owned by Burris.

 

[Huskydriver]

Re-read what you wrote… you said they are “sub-tier to others in their class”… Well, optics classes are typically dictated by their price ranges. So… My question still stands legitimate.

Steiners are great scopes. I haven’t looked through one in 20 years, but I still hear good things. Plus, they’re owned by Burris.

Class is mag range not price and the king dingaling in that class is the SB 320 or 520 us or a TT 315 or zco 420.

 

[AznTactical]

Class is mag range not price and the king dingaling in that class is the SB 320 or 520 us or a TT 315 or zco 420.

I feel so poor reading this. Those SB and TT are absolute kings in the optic industry in that class. I'm definitely not a king. Might be a knight at best with my Steiner TX6i, G2, G3 and an old but trusty SB PMII 5-25.

 

[FuhQ]

I feel so poor reading this. Those SB and TT are absolute kings in the optic industry in that class. I'm definitely not a king. Might be a knight at best with my Steiner TX6i, G2, G3 and an old but trusty SB PMII 5-25.

S&B PMII is the most overrated and outdated scope in 2023. Grossly overpriced for the lack of tech you get, and their warranty is hot garbage.

 

[FuhQ]

Class is mag range not price and the king dingaling in that class is the SB 320 or 520 us or a TT 315 or zco 420.

Tier range is price range. Magnification range is an entirely different range of classification. Most people compare optics by quality/features to other optics in that same price range, since budget tends to be a more finite factor, than magnification.

 

[AznTactical]

S&B PMII is the most overrated and outdated scope in 2023. Grossly overpriced for the lack of tech you get, and their warranty is hot garbage.

Overrated? Absolutely no. It showed it's optical advantage at a 1 mile shoot I attended this year. Optically was better than ATACR, G2, G3, XTR 3. Couldn't tell much difference between Steiner TX6i and March. Slightly better than ZCO. Only the TT was better than the old and trusty PM II.

But I'll agree with you on being outdated. Maybe the newer S&B will have more modern features. (doesn't matter, too expensive for me anyways)

Warranty....I hope to never use it but if needed I have a S&B direct contact now.

 

[Poorboyr]

Getting the popcorn ready for this one…..

 

[FuhQ]

Overrated? Absolutely no. It showed it's optical advantage at a 1 mile shoot I attended this year. Optically was better than ATACR, G2, G3, XTR 3. Couldn't tell much difference between Steiner TX6i and March. Slightly better than ZCO. Only the TT was better than the old and trusty PM II.

But I'll agree with you on being outdated. Maybe the newer S&B will have more modern features. (doesn't matter, too expensive for me anyways)

Warranty....I hope to never use it but if needed I have a S&B direct contact now.

Whatever you say man… And yeah, you’d better hope you don’t need the warranty, because it has a time limit, then they start charging you ridiculous “prorated” prices to fix things.

Guarantee a current gen Kahles K525i DLR would give it a run for its money…

 

[Huskydriver]

Tier range is price range. Magnification range is an entirely different range of classification. Most people compare optics by quality/features to other optics in that same price range, since budget tends to be a more finite factor, than magnification.

I forgot you are an expert at everything and been doing this forever now that you got a Kahles scope in house lol. @Glassaholic and @koshkin and other people who typically know what they are doing when writing comparison reviews pick scopes by mag range aka class with some being a lower price point and some higher.

Op didn't list out a price and specifically asked about two midrange class scopes that are at the bottom of the "acceptable" pile all the while stating reticle weight, durability etc don't matter. If those things don't matter and you should be looking at the ultra short SB , tt315 or zco 420.

I still rock a 525pmii on one of my rigs and it's never been beat imo next to the other alpha glass I own or have owned. 525s used are one of the best value optics out there at 2500. If you don't know you don't....

As far as SB warranty.... Jerry kills it and will chat on the phone with you and talk specifics about what you want done. Want your parallax set a certain way you got it. Wanna switch to ccw or cw...can do. Reticle swaps you bet... Gotta sue NF to get a scope warrantied...am I right @BurtG

 

[FuhQ]

I forgot you are an expert at everything and been doing this forever now that you got a Kahles scope in house lol. @Glassaholic and @koshkin and other people who typically know what they are doing when writing comparison reviews pick scopes by mag range aka class with some being a lower price point and some higher.

Op didn't list out a price and specifically asked about two midrange class scopes that are at the bottom of the "acceptable" pile all the while stating reticle weight, durability etc don't matter. If those things don't matter and you should be looking at the ultra short SB , tt315 or zco 420.

I still rock a 525pmii on one of my rigs and it's never been beat imo next to the other alpha glass I own or have owned. 525s used are one of the best value optics out there at 2500. If you don't know you don't....

As far as SB warranty.... Jerry kills it and will chat on the phone with you and talk specifics about what you want done. Want your parallax set a certain way you got it. Wanna switch to ccw or cw...can do. Reticle swaps you bet... Gotta sue NF to get a scope warrantied...am I right @BurtG

Anytime I state my opinion, everyone starts hating to discredit any relevant points I make, because they don’t align with your own, or some other “expert” on the internet. Weak beta shit.

I’m not an expert at any of this, never once claimed to be, but I have spent an extensive amount of my life shooting guns…Exponentially more than the average person. Does that make me an expert? No. Does that mean I have alot more experience with this subject than the average person? Yes. Am I always right? No. Nobody is. Not even the so-called experts. Lots of subjective things get pushed as facts based on someone’s personal opinion. And that’s part of why our society is completely fucked in so many ways.

Don’t like my opinions? Not my problem. But that’s not going to change my opinions, or the experiences that created those opinions.

 

[Bacarrat]

Why is it every single day the same people always are in a argument about something?

 

[AznTactical]

Guarantee a current gen Kahles K525i DLR would give it a run for its money…

I'll report back in about 5 months because a DLR will be at our next mile shoot. Pretty excited to test it actually.

 

[FuhQ]

I'll report back in about 5 months because a DLR will be at our next mile shoot. Pretty excited to test it actually.

If you try to remain unbiased, you’ll be impressed. Some people read shit on the internet and then preform opinions subconsciously before ever even seeing the thing in person, simply based off of someone else’s personal bias.

 

[FuhQ]

Why is it every single day the same people always are in a argument about something?

Because some people can’t handle other people’s conflicting opinions of their purchase justification.

 

[hafejd30]

I had the atacr 4-20. Recently sold and upgraded to a ZCO. That 4-20 is a great optic. Be even better if they could get the turrets design of the 4-16 elevation on it

I haven’t used the zeiss so can’t help you there. The atacr does tunnel. More like a 5.5-20. But just for reference the ZCO tunnels as well. Less than the atacr but still there

 

[AznTactical]

If you try to remain unbiased, you’ll be impressed. Some people read shit on the internet and then preform opinions subconsciously before ever even seeing the thing in person, simply based off of someone else’s personal bias.

I come into everything with a clean slate. Hell, it has to be the same atmospheric conditions too. All of our eyes are different, 1 scope might look good, 1 might not and vice versa to you. Hell, I even made sure that I adjusted the diopter to match my eyeball (most people that eye rape scopes don't touch the diopter at all). But I can tell you that I was not impressed with a Kahles 6-24 for the money.

 

[Glassaholic]

I had the atacr 4-20. Recently sold and upgraded to a ZCO. That 4-20 is a great optic. Be even better if they could get the turrets design of the 4-16 elevation on it

Agree on the 4-16x42 turrets, but we won't see those on another NF scope because they lost the lawsuit to Leupold on that one. I have avoided the NF 4-20 simply because of the tunneling, why get a 4x scope that has such narrow FOV. The Schmidt Ultra Short 5-20 has almost the same FOV at 5x than the ATACR 4-20 has at 4x????

I haven’t used the zeiss so can’t help you there. The atacr does tunnel. More like a 5.5-20. But just for reference the ZCO tunnels as well. Less than the atacr but still there

I don't remember my ZCO 4-20 tunneling, but I know they have restricted the FOV on the scope. I've been wanting to grab another ZCO 4-20 but have been waiting for a good reticle, I'm beginning to think that is not going to happen so may just grab a MPCT1 next time I see a good deal.

 

[FuhQ]

I come into everything with a clean slate. Hell, it has to be the same atmospheric conditions too. All of our eyes are different, 1 scope might look good, 1 might not and vice versa to you. Hell, I even made sure that I adjusted the diopter to match my eyeball (most people that eye rape scopes don't touch the diopter at all). But I can tell you that I was not impressed with a Kahles 6-24 for the money.

The newest gen K624i with the SKMR4 reticle is pretty damn good…I have 2 of those, as well. The parallax is dead-on, and I get no washout directly in the sun. I’m happy with mine. Like you said, everyone’s eyes are different.

 

[hafejd30]

Agree on the 4-16x42 turrets, but we won't see those on another NF scope because they lost the lawsuit to Leupold on that one. I have avoided the NF 4-20 simply because of the tunneling, why get a 4x scope that has such narrow FOV. The Schmidt Ultra Short 5-20 has almost the same FOV at 5x than the ATACR 4-20 has at 4x????

I don't remember my ZCO 4-20 tunneling, but I know they have restricted the FOV on the scope. I've been wanting to grab another ZCO 4-20 but have been waiting for a good reticle, I'm beginning to think that is not going to happen so may just grab a MPCT1 next time I see a good deal.

My ZCO is a 5-27. Probably a 5.5-27. Not atacr type tunneling but I was surprised it did a bit based on the comparisons people were making between atacr and ZCO and kept hitting on the tunneling issue. I thought it would be non existent in the ZCO

 

[Huskydriver]

My ZCO is a 5-27. Probably a 5.5-27. Not atacr type tunneling but I was surprised it did a bit based on the comparisons people were making between atacr and ZCO and kept hitting on the tunneling issue. I thought it would be non existent in the ZCO

Interesting my 527s didn't tunnel

 

[hafejd30]

Interesting my 527s didn't tunnel

Yup. Just looked through it again. Tunnels 5-5.5. Very minimal. The 4-20 was 4-5.5. Can’t remember what my 7-35 looks like.

Just checked my 4-16 atacr. There’s zero tunneling on that scope

 

[Glassaholic]

Yup. Just looked through it again. Tunnels 5-5.5. Very minimal. The 4-20 was 4-5.5. Can’t remember what my 7-35 looks like.

Just checked my 4-16 atacr. There’s zero tunneling on that scope

That's a lot of tunneling on the 4-20 ZCO, you'd think I would have seen that, but... stranger things Or are you saying the ATACR 4-20 tunneled from 4 - 5/5.5?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Zco has zero tunneling. Homeboy is on some good drugs.

OP: if you haven't looked yet and I'm not sure if your application, but the gen3 razors stomps the shit out of the atacr and ziess. They go on sale a few times a year for 1800 or so. Can't get a better optic under $3k.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Overrated? Absolutely no. It showed it's optical advantage at a 1 mile shoot I attended this year. Optically was better than ATACR, G2, G3, XTR 3. Couldn't tell much difference between Steiner TX6i and March. Slightly better than ZCO. Only the TT was better than the old and trusty PM II.

But I'll agree with you on being outdated. Maybe the newer S&B will have more modern features. (doesn't matter, too expensive for me anyways)

Warranty....I hope to never use it but if needed I have a S&B direct contact now.

I've looked at multiple zco and s&b side by side ( shot mock stages with both) with another hide member.

The ZCO is heads and shoulders better. Brighter better resolution way way better in low light. Going from the zco to a pm2 is like putting a set of sunglasses on.

 

[hafejd30]

That's a lot of tunneling on the 4-20 ZCO, you'd think I would have seen that, but... stranger things Or are you saying the ATACR 4-20 tunneled from 4 - 5/5.5?

The atacr 4-20 tunneled. Legit 5.5-20

The ZCO 5-27 tunnels to 5.5

Despite what deathbeforedismountingdick thinks.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

What the fuck do I know...only owned 3 zco have probally shot 10 different 5-27s and competed with them for 2 years.

If yours tunnels it needs to go back to nick or Jeff for repairs.

Or you need to see an eye doctor.

 

[hafejd30]

What the fuck do I know...only owned 3 zco have probally shot 10 different 5-27s and competed with them for 2 years.

If yours tunnels it needs to go back to nick or Jeff for repairs.

Or you need to see an eye doctor.

You can argue all you want bud. I just looked through it. And from 5-5.5 it tunnels. Ya it’s not a lot. But it tunnels. How many have you actually checked to see if they tunneled? Also when you’re using those or the 10 others your probably not running on 5 very often.

It doesn’t bother me. I use NF a lot so I’m used to it. Not going to bother ZCO for something that petty

 

[Long Range 338]

S&B PMII is the most overrated and outdated scope in 2023. Grossly overpriced for the lack of tech you get, and their warranty is hot garbage.

you could possibly justify that statement a year ago but now with the 6-36 being top of the pile you are completely wrong. WAY expensive? Hell yes, but completely blowing everything else out of the water optically…

I’ve had/have almost every optic out there and I can tell you there is not a Kahles, ZCO, or Nightforce currently in the stable…. I’m not stating they suck, I’m stating I prefer other optics and the OLD S&B is a damn fine optic to this day.

To each his own but the hyperbolic statements are showing your inner fanboi a bit too much.

OP between the 2 options you mentioned the Zeiss would be my preferred option.

 

[Kiba]

If you crunch the apparent FOV numbers from zco's FOV specs on their website:

ZCO 527:
7m @ 100m @ 5x = 20.02 degrees apparent FOV
1.5m @ 100m @ 27x = 23.2 degrees apparent FOV

ZCO 420:
9.3m @ 100m @ 4x = 21.25 degrees AFOV
2m @ 100m @ 20x= 22.91 degrees AFOV

Both the 420 and 527 show tightening of the apparent FOV at the bottom end of the mag range, moreso on the 527.

Is it as dramatic as the tunneling on an S&B 5-25 between 5 and 7.5x (15.17 degrees AFOV at 5x and 21.48 degrees at 25x)? Absolutely not, but the ZCO specs show the AFOV does shrink on the bottom end of the mag range with the 527 losing 3.18 degrees at 5x.

Fwiw, a razor G3 6-36 has an AFOV of 24.06 degrees at 36x and 23.45 degrees at 6x.

Also, one thing the manufacturer FOV specs at min and max magnification don't tell you is what magnification the tunneling stops at.

 

[Secant]

Of the scopes that have been thrown out so far that I have on hand:

ZCO527 does not tunnel
ZCO420 tunnels from 4 to ~4.5(ish)
4-16 ATACR does not tunnel
TT315M does not tunnel

 

[UNRL Ghandi]

I bet the OP decided not to buy a scope at all after the direction this thread took.

FWIW +1 for Zeiss. $800 savings the OP is claiming and he won't have to use Digillum.

 

[Glassaholic]

The atacr 4-20 tunneled. Legit 5.5-20

Thanks for the clarification

Despite what deathbeforedismountingdick thinks.

Is he still around? I've had him on Ignore for a long time, but every now and then see someone commenting to him in a very similar manner. He is the quintessential troll most of the time.

 

[hafejd30]

Thanks for the clarification

Is he still around? I've had him on Ignore for a long time, but every now and then see someone commenting to him in a very similar manner. He is the quintessential troll most of the time.

Ya he’s here. Gracing us with his ever knowledgeable presence. Self proclaimed prs god. I’m not even sure what color a 396th place ribbon is

 

[Glassaholic]

Looking at getting a 4-20 ATACR or LRP S3 4-25, anyone have both?

Two very different scopes, both made by LOW but each mfr specs the OEM differently, in the optics world you generally get what you pay for; however, NF has built an extremely strong reputation in the FFP sport optics world while Zeiss is brand new to this game. From an optical design standpoint, the NF ATACR 4-20 is a 5x erector in a 13.9" body while the S3 4-25x50 is a 6.25x erector in a 13.4" body, larger erector (greater magnification range) in a shorter body usually leads to more finicky in the eyebox, DOF and parallax department. Aside from the aforementioned FOV issues, that is something else to consider. I'll let those who've actually had both comment on how the two compare optically but based on the above I have my guess which one likely performs better.

I've seen there could be some tunneling on the ATACR, which I could see getting annoying, is that really a problem?

This is really a "in the eye of the beholder" situation. Tunneling in general may not be a big issue for you, what may be a bigger issue is the FOV. If you chose both these scopes because they both start at 4x you might be surprised to see that NF only offers 23.6' @ 100 yards while the Zeiss offers 28.5' @ 100 yards (both at 4x), for me personally that is a significant difference. When I'm looking at scopes I pay more attention to the FOV value than I do the magnification.

I can get the Zeiss, through various discounts, for like $800 less than the NF.

MSRP on the Zeiss is $800 less than the NF so this is not too surprising. You rarely see NF ever discounted and they hold their value, but when a company is just starting out and trying to make a name for themselves sometimes they need to price themselves accordingly, so just because a scope is cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it is "cheaper" if you know what I mean.

I understand there's the durability factor with NF, but is there any real difference optically? There are a few things that do not matter too much to me like weight or durability.

That is somewhat of a strange comment to make, you don't care much about durability? I'm going to guess what you mean is you aren't too concerned and that other scopes at this price point are durable enough to not make a difference for your use case.

Also not too set on a specific reticle so that is not too much of an issue.

Reticles are highly subjective and we all have our preferences

 

[FuhQ]

View attachment 8223082
you could possibly justify that statement a year ago but now with the 6-36 being top of the pile you are completely wrong. WAY expensive? Hell yes, but completely blowing everything else out of the water optically…

I’ve had/have almost every optic out there and I can tell you there is not a Kahles, ZCO, or Nightforce currently in the stable…. I’m not stating they suck, I’m stating I prefer other optics and the OLD S&B is a damn fine optic to this day.

To each his own but the hyperbolic statements are showing your inner fanboi a bit too much.

OP between the 2 options you mentioned the Zeiss would be my preferred option.

It's not a fanboy statement... The last 6 PM-II 5-25's that I looked through was about 6-7 years ago I guess... All 6 from the same batch at the same dealer. All 6 of them had the worst glass I've ever seen an S&B have. It was grainy and orange-tinted, and I wouldn't have given you $500 for one. It was bad. They might have been perfect mechanically, but optically, they were trash. Don't know if it was an isolated bad batch, but all 6 of them were horrific. The S/N's were consecutive. I sure hope it was a bad batch, because even Ray Charles would have said, "WTF?"...

I used to sell S&B 20 years ago, and they were top 3 by far...And definitely top-dog in the tactical scopes. NF was just really gaining some big name traction back then, and really taking off, so we sold a ton of NXS's, too. But optically, it was still inferior to the S&B. The glass itself in the Zeiss, Kahles, and Hensoldt scopes were superior to the S&B, but they were not tactical scopes. For hunting, they were brighter and clearer and far superior on a hunting rifle. But once again, S&B and NF were the reigning sales champs for the tactical scope for us.

I was honestly surprised and disgusted with how piss-poor those PM-II's looked. I told them, if I was them, I'd send them all back to the manufacture to have them replaced/repaired. The managed walked over to talk and asked what was wrong with them, and told him, he looked through them, and immediately went in the back and got a cardboard box to box them all up to send back. It wasn't just my eyes. 4 other people looked through them all agreed something wasn't right.

 

[R_A_W]

Can’t remember what my 7-35 looks like

Tunnels below 8.5

 

[mp0311]

Two very different scopes, both made by LOW but each mfr specs the OEM differently, in the optics world you generally get what you pay for; however, NF has built an extremely strong reputation in the FFP sport optics world while Zeiss is brand new to this game. From an optical design standpoint, the NF ATACR 4-20 is a 5x erector in a 13.9" body while the S3 4-25x50 is a 6.25x erector in a 13.4" body, larger erector (greater magnification range) in a shorter body usually leads to more finicky in the eyebox, DOF and parallax department. Aside from the aforementioned FOV issues, that is something else to consider. I'll let those who've actually had both comment on how the two compare optically but based on the above I have my guess which one likely performs better.

This is really a "in the eye of the beholder" situation. Tunneling in general may not be a big issue for you, what may be a bigger issue is the FOV. If you chose both these scopes because they both start at 4x you might be surprised to see that NF only offers 23.6' @ 100 yards while the Zeiss offers 28.5' @ 100 yards (both at 4x), for me personally that is a significant difference. When I'm looking at scopes I pay more attention to the FOV value than I do the magnification.

MSRP on the Zeiss is $800 less than the NF so this is not too surprising. You rarely see NF ever discounted and they hold their value, but when a company is just starting out and trying to make a name for themselves sometimes they need to price themselves accordingly, so just because a scope is cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it is "cheaper" if you know what I mean.

That is somewhat of a strange comment to make, you don't care much about durability? I'm going to guess what you mean is you aren't too concerned and that other scopes at this price point are durable enough to not make a difference for your use case.

Reticles are highly subjective and we all have our preferences

When I mentioned durability, obviously I want it to not fall apart, but I am not too concerned about the "bomb-proof" reliability that companies like NF claim.

 

[mp0311]

Also never really considered how much eye-box mattered too. Ill probably do some rough math to figure that out between the ones that I have it narrowed down to. The 4-16 ATACR is becoming more and more of a possibility