Suppressors ATF and Suppressors question

[lostangel]

This is a hypothetical question. I have no suppressors as of yet, but I am planning on starting the paperwork on a couple soon.

Let's say I went the route of the Revocable Living Trust. Everything is ok, checked out by a lawyer, etc. (Used Quicken Willmaker or something similar)

ATF approves, send the stamp (or whatever paperwork they send you) and I pickup the suppressor.

Some time goes by. 6 months, a year, whatever. The ATF decides that there is something wrong on the trust. Decide it is no longer valid, what have you.

Are they required to inform me of this fact, or am I just a felon by default now that I own unregisted NFA items?

Patrick

 

[Ranb]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

The silencer is registered as long as you have the ATF form approved. If the ATF says the trust is invalid, they will be letting you know, probably with a letter. The only case I knew of where a trust was declared invalid after tax stamp approval ended up in the person obtaining a lawyer, correcting the trust problem and keeping the silencer.

The guntrustlawyer website seems to be down now.

Ranb

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The silencer is registered as long as you have the ATF form approved. If the ATF says the trust is invalid, they will be letting you know, probably with a letter. The only case I knew of where a trust was declared invalid after tax stamp approval ended up in the person obtaining a lawyer, correcting the trust problem and keeping the silencer.

The guntrustlawyer website seems to be down now.

Ranb</div></div>

This. There is a lot of fear mongering going on about the use of trusts with NFA items. Simply ask those who are doing it to cite ONE case where someone ended up in jail due to using an invalid trust to get an NFA item approved. I have yet to see one. The only case I have heard of is the one Ranb cited above.

 

[LSUbeatUby40]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The silencer is registered as long as you have the ATF form approved. If the ATF says the trust is invalid, they will be letting you know, probably with a letter. The only case I knew of where a trust was declared invalid after tax stamp approval ended up in the person obtaining a lawyer, correcting the trust problem and keeping the silencer.

The guntrustlawyer website seems to be down now.

Ranb </div></div>

Agree. The ATF will(should) let you know by letter and give you enough time to correct the mistake..

 

[NRF]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

lostangel

check out www.exeterarms.com
you can call Rob anytime he will answer your questions very thoroughly.

 

[300WSM]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

i'd hire the guntrust lawyer guy to do it. why fck around with an NFA item? Plus if it's invalid he'll have to fix it for free. Furthermore he's done a ton of them so he would have to fix all of them so there might be some glitch somewhere etc but it would be an easy correction for his entire client list.

now if you go cheap and screw it up - which you will and it gets approved which it will and some time down the road when ATF cracks down you'll have to hire an attroney anyway.

I brought my will maker trust to a friend of mine who's been doing trusts ...estate law for 25yrs. he laughed at it. So there ya go. We did one up right and did the proper procedures to purchase through the trust etc.

 

[NRF]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

300wsm
Can you exlain me a little more the troubles that people are having with getting suppressors through the ATF?

I have 3 and got them all through my above link and have had no problems. They write up a revocable living trust, whether this is a loop hole that they found I hope this is what you are talking about? I guess like I said call Rob at Exeter arms and he will explain better. He sells to most law enforcment agencies around the midwest and I believe California.

I don't have to go through a law officer to sign any papers just have him add additional cans and full auto guns to the trust that he made up for a cost of $50.00.

He also deals in many different suppressor companies to give more options. I just picked up my second 7.72 YHM it took 8 months he said now it has been taking only 2 to 4 his ATF signer changed and it seems she is pushing them out faster.

Hope this helps someone?

 

[AtomicLabRat]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

Okay, here is the deal as I understand it. I do NFA Trusts in Texas.

If a trust is declared invalid, it will probably happen when you submit a new form 1 or form 4. You will get a letter at that point informing you that the BATF has determined that there is a problem with your trust. It is up to you to submit a fixed trust. This may happen the 1st time, or the 5th time.

Question: If a trust is invalid, are you a felon?

Nope, you have not been convicted of anything so you are not a felon.

The better question is whether you are in possession of unregistered NFA items. The answer is YES. The only reason you are able to possess the NFA items is because you possess them in your capacity as trustee (or managing member/officer) of a valid trust (or corp/LLC).

If the trust (or corp/LLC)is invalid, then you are not lawfully in possession of an item regulated by the NFA.

I believe the code or regulation says that the trust and/or corp must remain in good standing.

Anyway, I hope this helps a bit.

.

 

[300WSM]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

I'm just saying that people are cheap generally and they do it half ass by going will maker route. I'm telling ya that a guy who has specialized in estate law for 25yrs laughed at my trust that I made up. Said it wouldn't hold up and it missed a number of items.

if you want to be cheap and risk your freedom, go ahead.

I don't give a flying fck that the NFA hasn't declared all these quicken trusts invalid yet. The NFA does what they want and usually they don't make a lot of sense. It's the .gov what do you expect? JUST BECAUSE THEY APPROVE THEM DOESN"T MEAN SQUAT!!!

Now if ya have one that is done right then you have some legs to stand on. If you don't then your going to pay $$$ and or jail time.

 

[NRF]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm just saying that people are cheap generally and they do it half ass by going will maker route. I'm telling ya that a guy who has specialized in estate law for 25yrs laughed at my trust that I made up. Said it wouldn't hold up and it missed a number of items.

if you want to be cheap and risk your freedom, go ahead.

I don't give a flying fck that the NFA hasn't declared all these quicken trusts invalid yet. The NFA does what they want and usually they don't make a lot of sense. It's the .gov what do you expect? JUST BECAUSE THEY APPROVE THEM DOESN"T MEAN SQUAT!!!

Now if ya have one that is done right then you have some legs to stand on. If you don't then your going to pay $$$ and or jail time. </div></div>

Are you serious?? Yes I know you are! So I am sorry I am so stupid and don't understand what can happen? Once the ATF approves your paper work are you saying that the F**ked Govt. can take them away or did I miss something there. Like I said I don't know where you guys get your suppressors but the guy I get them from deals with alot of state govt. agencies and law enforment agencies. I am going there this week to get another can coming.

Would you please tell me what I should tell him or what info I should express. If not I will just print this thread and let him read your guys concerns. Thanks again.

 

[camelback]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

I have few cans now all went through with CLEO sign-offs. I have decided to start going the trust route just to make things easier (such has having to make a couple of trips to the CLEO to pick up the paperwork. Spoke to ATF on this. The lady told me that they have an in-house lawyer review all trusts before approval. Said that if there was a problem they would send the forms and trust back for correction with a note on the problem. I did not ask what would happen if they later decided trust was invalid. I used a lawyer but he was my father in law and was cheap for me and no he is not looking to do NFA trusts so please don't ask.

I am not worried about it coming back later as an invalid trust and them showing up at the door to arrest me. If there was a problem after the approval I'm sure that ATF would give notice and either allow a correction of the trust or at the very least allow you to surrender the silencer. I'm not going to lose sleep over this. If you do I would suggest you not go the trust route for NFA with all the internet ramblings on this it could cause premature baldness.

 

[300WSM]

Re: ATF and Suppressors question

for the love of god. you sound like my wife. "sorry i am so stupid"

read the post above my last.

if it's invalid then your in possession of an unregsistered NFA item.

ATF may be nice and send a letter telling you to fix your trust. They may bust down your door. To fix your trust you'll need a good attroney FAST who knows NFA laws etc. $$$

bottom line imo - is eventually some lawyer at the atf will figure this stuff out and bam. Or maybe not. It's not a gamble I was willing to take.

My trust is rock solid done by a guy who's been doing estate law for 25yrs and spent 16 billable hours researching NFA law before we did mine. Yeah I got it for free but if I wasn't able to do it for free I'd pay that gun trust lawyer guy to do it.