ATF Rescinds Prior Methods to Measure a Firearm’s Overall Length when Equipped with a Stabilizing Brace

[SilentStalkr]

And here we go. Damn it.

ATF Rescinds Prior Methods to Measure a Firearm’s Overall Length when Equipped with a Stabilizing Brace

Late yesterday, I received an email from an individual containing a letter from ATF which was a response to a correspondence requesting the correct method to “measure a firearm with a ‘…

blog.princelaw.com

 

[W54/XM-388]

Well the whole "braces" business was pretty clearly walking up to the NFA line and putting a foot right down the middle of the line.
I'm not sure if you ever had a AR15 Pistol back 20+ years ago, but back then the rules were rather strict about keeping it "pistol".

It seems after the whole bump stock mess, the ATF may be under political pressure to slowly walk back their more liberal interpretations of rules.
Back in the older times your rifle was always measured with the stock fully collapsed (such as the HK 91 Paratrooper style), my guess is they are going back to the previous restrictive interpretations to appease our filthy politicians.

 

[ArmyJerry]

This is the response to the article, fuck the NFA and the assholes that voted for it and keep voting for it.

I dont care, Im not going to comply with tyrant’s edicts and “opinions” regardless, I highly suggest everyone else do the same, the only reason this craps stands is because of complacency. The Second Amendment protects the First and with more and more infringements that target the average gun owner and not criminals it only points out that the Government is out for control over its population and not its best interest. All proposals for any action against the Second Amendment should be seen as an act of war on the Citizenry, Government infringing on the only insurance policy against Government is a conflict of interest and anyone doing so should be convicted of treason.

The NFA and the ATF both exceed Congress’ Authority under the Commerce Clause, even without the Second Amendment they are Unconstitutional.

“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry”

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Branch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“No state shall convert a liberty into a license, and charge a fee therefore.” (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105)

“If the State converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.” (Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, Alabama, 373 U.S. 262)

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs Arizona, 384, US 436 p. 491.

“Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the worthies of our country have secured its independence by the establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” – Thomas Jefferson

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty”

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. – Thomas Jefferson

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 Am. Jur. 2d, Sec. 178)

Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to local, state, or federal law enforcement or military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens. Every state has a similar law.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Fuck Ronald Reagan that fucking PT Barnum.

I dont own nor desire a shortiy pistol or whatever the fuck them things are, but no agency should be involved in what private property people want to own especially if its for ones defense against out of control agencies and governments.

 

[SilentStalkr]

Well the whole "braces" business was pretty clearly walking up to the NFA line and putting a foot right down the middle of the line.
I'm not sure if you ever had a AR15 Pistol back 20+ years ago, but back then the rules were rather strict about keeping it "pistol".

It seems after the whole bump stock mess, the ATF may be under political pressure to slowly walk back their more liberal interpretations of rules.
Back in the older times your rifle was always measured with the stock fully collapsed (such as the HK 91 Paratrooper style), my guess is they are going back to the previous restrictive interpretations to appease our filthy politicians.

Here is the thing tho, actions like this make it seem like we are ruled more by a class of elites rather than the Constitution. No, I’m not naive enough to think that this hasn’t been going on and and that we arent ruled by some elites but that’s exactly my point. This isn't right. You can’t say something is fine and dandy one day then say it isn’t, then say it is and keep flip flopping. You might as well be stealing people’s money. Thats not reminiscent of the way a free people live. And oh by the way, the ATF in its entirety is illegal. It flat out states in the Bill of Rights the shall not be infringed clause, enacting the ATF is in absolute conflict with that. So, how do we fix it? This shit is getting old and it’s not just about firearms. Things either need to be or not be but stop this back and forth BS.

 

[SilentStalkr]

This is the response to the article, fuck the NFA and the assholes that voted for it and keep voting for it.

I dont care, Im not going to comply with tyrant’s edicts and “opinions” regardless, I highly suggest everyone else do the same, the only reason this craps stands is because of complacency. The Second Amendment protects the First and with more and more infringements that target the average gun owner and not criminals it only points out that the Government is out for control over its population and not its best interest. All proposals for any action against the Second Amendment should be seen as an act of war on the Citizenry, Government infringing on the only insurance policy against Government is a conflict of interest and anyone doing so should be convicted of treason.

The NFA and the ATF both exceed Congress’ Authority under the Commerce Clause, even without the Second Amendment they are Unconstitutional.

“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry”

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Branch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“No state shall convert a liberty into a license, and charge a fee therefore.” (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105)

“If the State converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.” (Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, Alabama, 373 U.S. 262)

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs Arizona, 384, US 436 p. 491.

“Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the worthies of our country have secured its independence by the establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” – Thomas Jefferson

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty”

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. – Thomas Jefferson

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 Am. Jur. 2d, Sec. 178)

Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to local, state, or federal law enforcement or military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens. Every state has a similar law.

I’m saving this AJ!!!

 

[W54/XM-388]

Here is the thing tho, actions like this make it seem like we are ruled more by a class of elites rather than the Constitution. No, I’m not naive enough to think that this hasn’t been going on and and that we arent ruled by some elites but that’s exactly my point. This isn't right. You can’t say something is fine and dandy one day then say it isn’t, then say it is and keep flip flopping. You might as well be stealing people’s money. Thats not reminiscent of the way a free people live. And oh by the way, the ATF in its entirety is illegal. It flat out states in the Bill of Rights the shall not be regulated clause, enacting the ATF is in absolute conflict with that. So, how do we fix it? This shit is getting old and it’s not just about firearms. Things either need to be or not be but stop this back and forth BS.

So just in case anyone is not clear.
A. We ARE currently ruled by a class of elites
B. No it isn't right
C. They are stealing your money openly and loving every moment of it
D. We are not living as a free people and have not been for a long time
E. Changing their "terms and condition" on a whim is like their favourite thing to do.

The problem however and I'm saying this with great respect to AJ's post, is that in the actual world we live in in the USA currently the actual constitution and actual law matters very little because the elites and the political class control the men with the guns in both the army and the local police and both of them are solidly happy as a whole to "just follow orders" and "Do as they are told". So sure you may be in the right according to the constitution and even the court rulings.... still won't help you, the heel clicking "just doing their duty" types will show up and will gun you down or haul you off to prison and destroy your life. The courts will cover for them and show you what kangaroo courts they really are, and the rest of the "good" or "Freedom loving" folks WILL sit on their hands making noises about you should have "followed the law" (whatever the law happens to be interpreted as that day).

Not nice to think about, but it is what actually happens every single day in this country, and not just about 2A rights either.

 

[SilentStalkr]

So just in case anyone is not clear.
A. We ARE currently ruled by a class of elites
B. No it isn't right
C. They are stealing your money openly and loving every moment of it
D. We are not living as a free people and have not been for a long time
E. Changing their "terms and condition" on a whim is like their favourite thing to do.

The problem however and I'm saying this with great respect to AJ's post, is that in the actual world we live in in the USA currently the actual constitution and actual law matters very little because the elites and the political class control the men with the guns in both the army and the local police and both of them are solidly happy as a whole to "just follow orders" and "Do as they are told". So sure you may be in the right according to the constitution and even the court rulings.... still won't help you, the heel clicking "just doing their duty" types will show up and will gun you down or haul you off to prison and destroy your life. The courts will cover for them and show you what kangaroo courts they really are, and the rest of the "good" or "Freedom loving" folks WILL sit on their hands making noises about you should have "followed the law" (whatever the law happens to be interpreted as that day).

Not nice to think about, but it is what actually happens every single day in this country, and not just about 2A rights either.

Yes, I’m aware. So, what are we to do, just bend over and take it? Keep bitching online about it and being pussies? Lol. At some point a large enough group will say no more. One day, or we will all be in chains heading to rail cars. I half agree with you, but the Washington in my blood says I’d rather live free than be a slave...

PS if nobody is going to do something as a collective you might as well go ahead and give up your guns and your online training while you are ahead. You’ve got about 7+/- a few years. Enjoy while you can.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I think you guys know I think about it every day, all day, wake up thinking about it, its more than my life.

 

[QuickNDirty]

This is the response to the article, fuck the NFA and the assholes that voted for it and keep voting for it.

I dont care, Im not going to comply with tyrant’s edicts and “opinions” regardless, I highly suggest everyone else do the same, the only reason this craps stands is because of complacency. The Second Amendment protects the First and with more and more infringements that target the average gun owner and not criminals it only points out that the Government is out for control over its population and not its best interest. All proposals for any action against the Second Amendment should be seen as an act of war on the Citizenry, Government infringing on the only insurance policy against Government is a conflict of interest and anyone doing so should be convicted of treason.

The NFA and the ATF both exceed Congress’ Authority under the Commerce Clause, even without the Second Amendment they are Unconstitutional.

“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry”

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Branch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“No state shall convert a liberty into a license, and charge a fee therefore.” (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105)

“If the State converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.” (Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, Alabama, 373 U.S. 262)

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs Arizona, 384, US 436 p. 491.

“Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the worthies of our country have secured its independence by the establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” – Thomas Jefferson

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty”

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. – Thomas Jefferson

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 Am. Jur. 2d, Sec. 178)

Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to local, state, or federal law enforcement or military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens. Every state has a similar law.

I was just having this conversation with some democrats that were concerned about illegal aliens.

 

[Alphatreedog]

This smells like a set up . As per the comments after the article , "When were they going to tell us " ? Bam instant felon , surrender/confiscate everything . Probably part of the ramp up to 2020 . Gotta disarm before they finish going balls deep . Can't have the fuckin peasants getting out of line .
Edit : I'm sure the NRA will be along shortly to give you a pocket knife or cheesy pvc bag for your troubles .

 

[AMGtuned]

This is the response to the article, fuck the NFA and the assholes that voted for it and keep voting for it.

I dont care, Im not going to comply with tyrant’s edicts and “opinions” regardless, I highly suggest everyone else do the same, the only reason this craps stands is because of complacency. The Second Amendment protects the First and with more and more infringements that target the average gun owner and not criminals it only points out that the Government is out for control over its population and not its best interest. All proposals for any action against the Second Amendment should be seen as an act of war on the Citizenry, Government infringing on the only insurance policy against Government is a conflict of interest and anyone doing so should be convicted of treason.

The NFA and the ATF both exceed Congress’ Authority under the Commerce Clause, even without the Second Amendment they are Unconstitutional.

“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry”

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Branch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“No state shall convert a liberty into a license, and charge a fee therefore.” (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105)

“If the State converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.” (Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, Alabama, 373 U.S. 262)

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs Arizona, 384, US 436 p. 491.

“Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the worthies of our country have secured its independence by the establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” – Thomas Jefferson

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty”

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. – Thomas Jefferson

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 Am. Jur. 2d, Sec. 178)

Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to local, state, or federal law enforcement or military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens. Every state has a similar law.

I'm glad you quoted this. While reading the article, that particular response made me think, "ArmyJerry is talking about all these cases, all the time". Fuck the NFA, fuck the ATF, and fuck the liberal scum that eats copper when they come for them

 

[Jack's Dad]

Speech relating to firearms will soon be heavily regulated after it gets re-designated by the ATF.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Speech relating to firearms will soon be heavily regulated after it gets re-designated by the ATF.

Mother fuckers tried to add information to ITAR aka internet and printed .
Feelin Froggy cause the temp of the pot just went up a few more degrees .

 

[Bigjake83]

I just purchased a AR pistol a couple of days ago and prior to my purchase was informed that the overall length must be measured from the end of the barrel with muzzle device removed to the end of the receiver extension.

But just so I understand this correctly isn't this only affecting the choice of running a vertical grip if your pistol is over 26"???
And now that they consider a AR pistol with a folded stabilizing brace is to be measured in the folded position??

One thing that struck me odd was the fact that they did not consider you cannot fire an AR pistol with the stock folded, so why the firearm has to be measured in the folded position, if it is capable of being folded does that make any sense.

 

[wigwamitus]

What difference does it make what the barrel length of a pistol is ? I mean, there's a certain practical minimum. Zero won't work. Maybe 2 inches is about the shortest practical length ? But if a widget is a PISTOL, what difference does the length make ??

(or the overall length either ... what difference does it make for a PISTOL ?)

 

[Bigjake83]

What difference does it make what the barrel length of a pistol is ? I mean, there's a certain practical minimum. Zero won't work. Maybe 2 inches is about the shortest practical length ? But if a widget is a PISTOL, what difference does the length make ??

(or the overall length either ... what difference does it make for a PISTOL ?)

It doesn't make any difference what the overall length of a pistol or barrel length of a pistol is, unless you plan to run a forward grip.

 

[wigwamitus]

So for my "pistols" ... my G-19x and M1911 ... my "forward grip" is my support hand

 

[Snipe260]

 

[Bigjake83]

I get that these new regulations could make a lot of you Fit to be Tied, but ultimately it's the gun owners responsibilities to remain current and aware of any and all applicable firearm regulations, new or otherwise.

I appreciate the OP taking the time to acknowledge and pass along these rules but I think a lot of you guys are just raising your blood pressure unnecessarily.

 

[lash]

This is the response to the article, fuck the NFA and the assholes that voted for it and keep voting for it.

I dont care, Im not going to comply with tyrant’s edicts and “opinions” regardless, I highly suggest everyone else do the same, the only reason this craps stands is because of complacency. The Second Amendment protects the First and with more and more infringements that target the average gun owner and not criminals it only points out that the Government is out for control over its population and not its best interest. All proposals for any action against the Second Amendment should be seen as an act of war on the Citizenry, Government infringing on the only insurance policy against Government is a conflict of interest and anyone doing so should be convicted of treason.

The NFA and the ATF both exceed Congress’ Authority under the Commerce Clause, even without the Second Amendment they are Unconstitutional.

“Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry”

“All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void.” Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Branch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

“No state shall convert a liberty into a license, and charge a fee therefore.” (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 U.S. 105)

“If the State converts a right (liberty) into a privilege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right (liberty) with impunity.” (Shuttlesworth v. City of Birmingham, Alabama, 373 U.S. 262)

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda vs Arizona, 384, US 436 p. 491.

“Aware of the tendency of power to degenerate into abuse, the worthies of our country have secured its independence by the establishment of a Constitution and form of government for our nation, calculated to prevent as well as to correct abuse.”
–Thomas Jefferson to Washington Tammany Society, 1809.

“If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.” – Thomas Jefferson

“When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty”

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. – Thomas Jefferson

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and the name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of its enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it; an unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed … An unconstitutional law is void.” (16 Am. Jur. 2d, Sec. 178)

Under federal law, 18 USC 242, it is illegal for anyone under the color of law to deprive any person of the rights, privileges or immunities secured by the U.S. Constitution, and under 18 USC 241 it is illegal to conspire to violate such rights. It is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. This could be applied to local, state, or federal law enforcement or military personnel who abuse the rights of citizens. Every state has a similar law.

Funny how things come full circle.

Something in the Air

Call out the instigators
Because there's something in the air
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right
And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now
Lock up the streets and houses
Because there's something in the air
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right
And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now
Hand out the arms and ammo
We're going to blast our way through here
We've got to get together sooner or later
Because the revolution's here, and you know it's right
And you know that it's right
We have got to get it together
We have got to get it together now
Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: John Keen
Something in the Air lyrics © T.R.O. Inc., Abkco Music, Inc, Spirit Music Group

 

[ArmyJerry]

Wayne LaPierre is that you?

I get that these new regulations could make a lot of you Fit to be Tied, but ultimately it's the gun owners responsibilities to remain current and aware of any and all applicable firearm regulations, new or otherwise.

I appreciate the OP taking the time to acknowledge and pass along these rules but I think a lot of you guys are just raising your blood pressure unnecessarily.

 

[oneshot86]

It doesn't make any difference what the overall length of a pistol or barrel length of a pistol is, unless you plan to run a forward grip.

thats the way i read it also.
they say a pistol is shot w 1 hand and w the forward grip installed, its now to be shot w 2 hands...
to each there own but i just dont see the need for a forward verticle grip, gear queer shit

 

[Inifinty]

thats the way i read it also.
they say a pistol is shot w 1 hand and w the forward grip installed, its now to be shot w 2 hands...
to each there own but i just dont see the need for a forward verticle grip, gear queer shit

That is the attitude that allowed infringement to take hold so many years ago when it is expressly forbidden by the constitution.

Eventually all you'll be allowed to shoot are paper wads thru and environmentally friendly straw.

 

[oneshot86]

That is the attitude that allowed infringement to take hold so many years ago when it is expressly forbidden by the constitution.

Eventually all you'll be allowed to shoot are paper wads thru and environmentally friendly straw.

what attitude

 

[Bigjake83]

thats the way i read it also.
they say a pistol is shot w 1 hand and w the forward grip installed, its now to be shot w 2 hands...
to each there own but i just dont see the need for a forward verticle grip, gear queer shit

All I know is I am not a Operator, I'm a retired vet that enjoys recreational shooting so I do my best to not get too emotionally involved.

However I will say a handstop is Paramount especially for those of us who have a long length of pull and don't want to blow up her fingers.

 

[Bigjake83]

That is the attitude that allowed infringement to take hold so many years ago when it is expressly forbidden by the constitution.

Eventually all you'll be allowed to shoot are paper wads thru and environmentally friendly straw.

I understand exactly what you and the above members are saying, I just don't see the point in renting and raving on a public chat forum that you know is monitored by members of the government.

All you're doing is highlighting yourself as a possible Sovereign Citizen, and if by chance you do get caught up in something you can bet your sweet ass that they will use this as a predetermination of your mental stability.

If you want your voices to be heard or "bring the fight" to the opposers of our second amendment rights you do it with ink.

 

[Inifinty]

what attitude

Seeing no need for something, and thereby being OK with it to being banned or regulated.

 

[oneshot86]

just reading the law as it was passed, not agreeing with it at all, but there is a difference between a stop and a vertical grip that makes the thing a 2 handed operation.
why challenge the, unjust, law with a bullshit part that makes you like a gear queer. put a stop on it like springfield has on there saint, whatever.

 

[oneshot86]

Seeing no need for something, and thereby being OK with it to being banned or regulated.

didnt say that at all, you are being a tard

 

[W54/XM-388]

Speech relating to firearms will soon be heavily regulated after it gets re-designated by the ATF.

They may not need to. The Technocrats and SJW fanatics that control just about all popular or commonly used methods of "speech" will shut down all discussion on it long before that.... while idiot "freedom loving" types blather on about how they can do it because they are "private companies"......

 

[W54/XM-388]

One thing that struck me odd was the fact that they did not consider you cannot fire an AR pistol with the stock folded, so why the firearm has to be measured in the folded position, if it is capable of being folded does that make any sense.

As per the usual way the ATF argues things in court, if they could figure out a way to load a round, then fold the stock then make it go bang even just once, even if it tore the whole thing apart, they will argue that it functioned.

They do crazier things when trying to prove a case against someone when they happened to come across an old rusted solid pistol in the house of someone they are trying to frame up.... sure but if we beat it open, put a round in and beat on the hammer with a hammer till something breaks loose eventually something goes boom... never mind it was the whole rusted hulk disintegrating.... off to prison with you.... actual court cases.

 

[FatBoy]

So, serious question here, what is the current rules for length? There is so much shit out there I can't make sense of it all. I'm in the process of buying parts for a PCC with an FM 9mm dedicated lower. If I have to go SBR, I'll just go SBR but it would be nice to be able to travel to visit friends, or shoot a match without having to file paperwork.

As to the politics of it, I'm convinced the Deep State has made it so hard to interpret the law and follow it that they have intentionally made all of us criminals. It's just a tool in the box if they ever try to come after you. If they can't get you for X, they'll get you for Y.

 

[W54/XM-388]

As to the politics of it, I'm convinced the Deep State has made it so hard to interpret the law and follow it that they have intentionally made all of us criminals. It's just a tool in the box if they ever try to come after you. If they can't get you for X, they'll get you for Y.

Exactly the point, as very clearly laid out my many great writers & thinkers years ago, over and over again.

You can't control free upstanding citizens easily.... so make tons of hidden trap laws so you can make them criminals unknowingly at the drop of a hat anytime you want....

Why do you think they also make the penalties for stupid stuff so draconian?..... Leverage.

It's all about being able to put the screws to anyone, anytime they choose and have the rest of the sheep mumble something about "they should have followed the law".

 

[Inifinty]

didnt say that at all, you are being a tard

Maybe I am, so what is the point in stating something is queer in a thread discussing its legality?''

If misconstrued, then maybe you can see why?

 

[Bigjake83]

So, serious question here, what is the current rules for length?

from what I have been reading there is no minimum or even maximum length for your pistol it's about the features you choose to add to it that makes it somewhat trouble matic.

To get the actual overall length of your pistol you measure it from the tip of the barrel with muzzle device removed to the end of the fix receiver extension.

Prior to this thread if it was over 26" you could use a forward grip, now that doesn't seem to be the case so your best bet is don't use a forward grip on any pistol.

and now if you choose to run a folding stock adapter on your pistol of choice, you now have to measure your overall length with the stock folded, again only affecting the 26-inch rule which is only affecting you if you want to run a forward grip.

Handstops however are still legal as they do not constitute a grip and in my opinion are a smart decision so you don't get excited, lose focus and accidentally overextend your hand into the muzzle blast and lose a finger or two.

 

[Bigjake83]

Maybe I am, so what is the point in stating something is queer in a thread discussing its legality?''

If misconstrued, then maybe you can see why?

I have to agree with MTN, posting anti gay/derogatory comments on a public chat forum doesn't help any of us, all it does is give one more excuse to label pro-second amendment people under an extremist category.

 

[SilentStalkr]

thats the way i read it also.
they say a pistol is shot w 1 hand and w the forward grip installed, its now to be shot w 2 hands...
to each there own but i just dont see the need for a forward verticle grip, gear queer shit

I just want to ask, who in the hell shoots a pistol/handgun/whatever with one hand? I’m sorry but unless you all are all gangbangers I’m sure you are using a two handed grip on your handguns when shooting, which by the way is much smaller, more concealable and under most practical circumstances a lot better option than an AR pistol with a folding stock. These laws are just freaking stupid. Nobody is running around committing crimes with a damn shorty AR pistol. Why? Because you’d be an idiot to do so when you can carry something smaller that is just as accurate and more easily wielded.

I understand exactly what you and the above members are saying, I just don't see the point in renting and raving on a public chat forum that you know is monitored by members of the government.

All you're doing is highlighting yourself as a possible Sovereign Citizen, and if by chance you do get caught up in something you can bet your sweet ass that they will use this as a predetermination of your mental stability.

If you want your voices to be heard or "bring the fight" to the opposers of our second amendment rights you do it with ink.

Yeah, ink to paper has worked so well so far. I’m sure most of us have been doing that for decades and look where we are. We are sick of it. They backing people into a corner and one day one side isn’t going to come to the table anymore. If you want to keep the peace you come to the table with reasonable options.

Seeing no need for something, and thereby being OK with it to being banned or regulated.

Exactly. Nobody wanted bumpstocks either but now those are gone and has paved a dangerous path. I don’t care for them but I won’t support any regulation keeping anyone that wants one from having one. Where does reasonable end?

 

[Nik H]

None of this is remotely surprising.

When braces emerged on the scene, they were fixed length and not adjustable. They required specific types of buffer tubes that did not allow LOP adjustments.

Recently, the ATF ruled or just allowed that braces could be foldable and/or adjustable for overall length. I have looked at these braces for both my present AR15 pistol and my SP89. When I first saw these, I was pretty flabbergasted that they were legal. Adding a foldable one of these to my SP89 makes it essentially identical to the MP5 PDW. Under the old rules, if the brace were extended, I could have likely added a VFG and would have skirted the NFA law. Now that loophole is gone and anyone surprised is really a bit naive.

Enjoy the fact that you can run a brace and stay away from VFGs unless you pay the man his tax and get the stamp if you live in a state that allows it.

OR

Let’s band together and repeal the unconstitutional NFA regulations and be done with it

 

[oneshot86]

Maybe I am, so what is the point in stating something is queer in a thread discussing its legality?''

If misconstrued, then maybe you can see why?

who cares why i dont like them, its irrelevant to the law.
the reason i called you a tard is because you cannot comprehend the very basic words i typed.
you guys get so hyped up about things people have not said at all.
save that energy, or use it to fight the stupid motherfucker who made the unjust law.

 

[pmclaine]

I think when the pistol brace was approved someone was of the idea that there are hordes of lunatics out there wanting to go "postal" dual wielding pistol ARs under a trench coat.

The realization that no one was going to go out and "Vegas" a crowd anytime soon, and the fact the only people able to afford such "novelties" are the patriotic tax paying working class, has made the communists realize that they will not be getting their incident to call for a ban on AR pistols.

They cant risk pulling off another "Vegas" operation and they are allowing the good guys to arm up with something they are too dumb to understand is likely less capable than your standard AR, hence the revision.

 

[MK20]

AFGs are still ok no matter what length, right? This has been my previous understanding.

 

[SilentStalkr]

AFGs are still ok no matter what length, right? This has been my previous understanding.

Yes, which makes the law look even more foolish imo. Neither is needed nor does one add any benefit over the other yet one is legal on a pistol and one is not.

 

[W54/XM-388]

They cant risk pulling off another "Vegas" operation and they are allowing the good guys to arm up with something they are too dumb to understand is likely less capable than your standard AR, hence the revision.

Someone inclined to believe in folks that play the long game to destroy freedom could possibly put forth an argument that the Obama ATF allowed the bump stocks... and planned all along for something like Vegas to happen once Hillary was in power in order to do a grab for all semi-autos and AR15s.... then Trump kind of ruined the plan by winning, but since it was all in place already they just decided to go for it anyways and get whatever they could out of it..... Not that I'm in any way saying that's what happened... just that some people could possibly make that assumption.

 

[AMGtuned]

^^
Very interesting point. Bump stocks were about to be assessed by Supreme Court, then Vegas. Suppressors soon to hit the SC, then VA beach..... funny patterns here..... Our nation needs to wake up and realize that the "deep state" is intentionally trying to divide us, then remove our method of discussion and assembly. Amazing what fear does to people. I'd settle for some good ol fashioned cage fights, just give me the right to choose my opponent. Winner makes the decision on topic at hand.....
For the record, I pay my taxes, tend to my family, and follow the law with all my extracurricular activities. I am in no way some "extremist". Just a freedom loving American who loves what this country was founded for

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I have to agree with MTN, posting anti gay/derogatory comments on a public chat forum doesn't help any of us, all it does is give one more excuse to label pro-second amendment people under an extremist category.

Stop being a fag and stop trying to deny other's their 1st Amendment to Free Speech. If you're offended or think it's wrong, that's your problem. And by the way, you're part of the problem and it shows brightly in your responses in this thread.

 

[pmclaine]

Someone inclined to believe in folks that play the long game to destroy freedom could possibly put forth an argument that the Obama ATF allowed the bump stocks... and planned all along for something like Vegas to happen once Hillary was in power in order to do a grab for all semi-autos and AR15s.... then Trump kind of ruined the plan by winning, but since it was all in place already they just decided to go for it anyways and get whatever they could out of it..... Not that I'm in any way saying that's what happened... just that some people could possibly make that assumption.

Im assuming that type person might think "Fast and Furious" was an operation more aimed at the US than the Cartels than?

Some people might make that assumption, possibly.....

 

[TheGerman]

Dont even care

 

[SilentStalkr]

Dont even care

As it should be. Do what you want.

 

[pmclaine]

Under which ruling will a penis show a longer measurement?

Im guessing someone at ATF is looking for advantage or to disadvantage.......