Aviation Career

[sto]

I'm to sure where to post this, anyways...

I have been looking into starting a new career in aviation and have looked into pilot schools such as ATP and avaiation mechanic schools such as AIM. Im not sure how to go about becoming a pilot along with an aircraft mechanic and would like to know what all i needed to do in order to start a new career in aviation. Anything would be helpful.

sto

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Aviation Career

Aviation is not friendly to new people at all and a flying as a career has been steadily going downhill for the last couple decades.

ATP and the likes are referred to as Zero to Hero programs and are generally looked down upon. You gut bullied through the ratings and dont really have enough time to absorb. They are overpriced for the training you get.

People go to these types of places drop nearly six figures for a chance to start a job earning 17,000$ a year. My GF's been an airline capt for 8 years now and would gladly take a job at a 7-eleven if she could get it.

Dont believe the pie in the sky dream they sell you...Plan on at least 5+ years making sub-minimum wage. Flying shitbox planes. If your tied down with family its going to make it harder. While building my time I moved about a dozen times the longest being from Maui to NY.


If I had to do it over again I would have chosen ATC as a career and flying as my #1 hobby. As it is I haven't flown for fun in over a decade.....

In order to make it in aviation you have to really love the work because the amount of BS you have to put up with otherwise will kill you.

Do you have much flying experience?


All that being said I do enjoy my job for the most part...but I was very lucky to get where I am at as early as I did. It would be nice to get more than a weekend off every 3 months though.....

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Aviation Career

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/06...uspended-for-Radio-Rant#.TgJS_8jrk2g;facebook



Just for fun....heres a guy havin a bad day.

 

[Hink]

Re: Aviation Career

Being a pilot sounds great, just like a lot of jobs. Just figure if it's something you want to do it for a living, when people are breathing down your neck to do it better and faster and cheaper.

For the maintenance side.....
1-800-MARINES

 

[sto]

Re: Aviation Career

thanks for the information, i currently do not have any flying experience but it has been something i have always wanted to do. I have been unemployed for the past few months and have been looking at a career change. How did you get started in this career?

 

[TOPO-sniper]

Re: Aviation Career

Do you have a college degree? If not, get one.

 

[sto]

Re: Aviation Career

yes i have a bachelors degree.

 

[sto]

Re: Aviation Career

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For the maintenance side.....
1-800-MARINES </div></div>

i've thought about it

 

[tireys]

Re: Aviation Career

I have been in Aviation Maintenance aspect for 14 yrs. now. Nearly 9 yrs. of it was active duty in the Marine Corps. I am not saying go see the recruiter tomorrow but, I believe I am where I am at today because I did. I was a 6154 Airframe and Hyd. mech Huey's and Cobras. I did that for 4.5 yrs. then went on the Presidential Helicopter Squad. Marine One in Quantico and worked on CH-53's and 46's until I got cleared and got a secondary MOS 6162 then maintained VH-3D's and VH-60's during the George Bush years until I got divorced in 05' and got custody of my daughter and EAS'd in Oct. 06'. I would still be there today if not for that (no regrets). I am still in aviation and there are far more choices as a Maintainer than pilots, its a larger pool of jobs and better pay. Get your A&P and your Non-Destructive Testing certifications and the jobs are out there. Good luck.

 

[Hink]

Re: Aviation Career

I started in aviation with the Marines, a 6315 Comm/Nav/IFF tech on the AV-8 Harrier. 13 years later, life is quite good. Never had any HMX experience like StealthMode, but did have good opportunities to see the world and see how other career fields worked for the individuals involved. The A&P course at most schools will run 2 years for an individual with no prior aviation experience. Then you'll be out in the field with an A&P and no experience, and looking for a job. Not that it's impossible to find one, but folks that take that route end up playing the numbers. Realistically, you can't expect to make as much as a FNG as a guy who's been doing the job for 15+ years. They'll teach yo what you need to know to pass A&P school, but experience will teach you what you need to know to keep good birds in the air.

Biggest pro about aviation -- most jobs pay very well

Biggest con about aviation -- it's a small industry, so don't piss anybody off

If you've got a bachelor's, then I would take a look at other career fields. There's a reason you put in the effort to graduate, and there is no requirement for a degree when turning wrenches. If you want to fly, check with military officer recruiting and see if they have any open pilot spots if that's the way you really want to go.

 

[ZLBubba]

Re: Aviation Career

If you want to fly, you might as well do it in uniform. If you want to fly helos, the warrant officer flight program for the Army is a pretty good deal. With your degree, you may want to see what kind of offer you can get from the AF as well. Then again, they're training more drone pilots than anything else these days.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Aviation Career

I have fixed planes for 24 years, 3 years Air Force working on KC-135, and 21 years as a A&P Mechanic, I hit the jack pot when Southwest hired me 14 years ago, I make what I concider a decent wage, not too much not too little. BUT before SWA I never made more than 14 bucks a hour, I don't have a assload of of tools, but the tools I do have are mostly Snap-On, hell even Craftsman tools are exspensive now, and still suck IMHO, investment in tools is probably going to cost you at least 4k to get going, and the sky is the limit after, and lets not forget about shifts, I work days now, but Nights Weekends and Holidays are still in my future until I retire. I don't recommend this profession to others because most don't have the mindset to make it a career, or the family support, airplanes always come first, because I'm always respondsible, even when sleeping.

 

[mac37]

Re: Aviation Career

Most non-military guys build hours flight instructing. It is low pay, long hours, but if you want to fly and aren't a billionaire...

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Aviation Career

Another point is there is an assload of laid off Mechanics and Pilots, all have experience and will work for peanuts because some money is better than no money. I do truly love my job, seeing a plane fly away safely because of my blood and swet is the best thank you in the world.

 

[ColoWyo]

Re: Aviation Career

I've been an airline pilot for 13 years now. Lears before that, boxes and flight instructed before that. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have done something totally different. Bankruptcy's, furlough's, pay cuts, pissed off flight attendant's and customers just aren't worth it.

New regulations are supposedly coming out with stricter regulations on hiring the 300 hour wonders who just graduated from Embry Riddle. So you could be looking at a long time flight instructing before your have the required flight time to work for a commuter. Then you'll be making $17,000 with huge loans to pay off.

I remember when I first got in to flying, I saw a t-shirt that said "Don't tell my mom I'm a pilot, she thinks I'm a piano player in a whore house"

Totally true.

 

[Immorteq]

Re: Aviation Career

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/06...uspended-for-Radio-Rant#.TgJS_8jrk2g;facebook



Just for fun....heres a guy havin a bad day.
</div></div>

That was pretty funny! The other pilots claiming it wasn't them was priceless

 

[7.62willdo]

Re: Aviation Career

I am an A&P and hobby pilot, both my brothers are ATP certified but unfortunatly they got there ratings in the late 80's early 90's when a white guy couldn't buy a job, and this with my father being a senior 747 capt. (making 400,000 a year) The advice on the military is good BUT be advised that some airlines won't hire ex-military pilots while other airlines prefer ex-military, usualy new pilots (around here) build hours flying a regional commuter like san juan air, flying cessena 206's and navajo chieftans, then they either go to alaska or "the ditch" (grand canyon). I have a good friend that flies left seat for alaska airlines and he asked me if my refinery was hiring! GOOD LUCK!

P.S. I mentioned how much money my father made to show you can make good money flying, however he would have done it for free if he had too, he LOVED his job and counted himself lucky everytime the let him fly a 747!

 

[Maggot]

Re: Aviation Career

My dad got his first license in high school, about 1935, then flew with MATS during the war. Afterwards he went with TWA and retired as a senior captain in 66. Those were the days when aviation was young and pilots were sort of celebrities. Somehow I just never got the bug.

You didnt mention your age, but is I were young, had a bachelors, and really wanted to fly id go with the Navy (Marines or AF as backup)and get to fly the really hot ones. Takeing off from a carrier must be a blast. Plus they give 'free' training, if you call a 6 year or more enlistment free. Good luck.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Aviation Career

Pvt pilot with 90% of my hours in taildraggers (Citabria, Decathlon, Pitts, Yak 55, Extra 300) and the only flights where I didn't get upside down was on the way to an IAC contest. I'm not the least bit tired of flying because I kept it as a hobby. Do I fly when I don't feel like it? Nope. Do I put up with anything remotely irritating about flying or the airport? Nope. I would heed the advice from people above. Sometimes you can ruin a passion by making it a job. If you don't have enough money to do it as a hobby then you need to just make more money. Easy.

Since you are unemployed you have unlimited time to go hang out at the local airport and make friends. Volunteer to get stuff done for an FBO and you will soon find lots of people who will help you along the way. There are some great people who run local GA airport FBOs who are generous, smart, and surprisingly well connected. You have to take the first steps though. Nobody will just give it to you. And whatever you do... do NOT get into debt to get your license. As mentioned, opening jobs pay just enough to cover food and housing.

 

[sto]

Re: Aviation Career

I'm 26 with a bachelors degree in architecture.

 

[sto]

Re: Aviation Career

Thanks everyone for the information and your input. Im guessing a helicopter pilot or mechanic wouldn't be any different.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Aviation Career

I almost have my add-on finished for the helo...I'd say it's a little harder for you to break into that world as you are looking at $400+ per hour in a R44. I don't recommend starting out in a R22. The R22 is a cheaper helicopter and so it attracts new people but it is much tougher to fly well. Don't let any of the above discourage you, it's just that it's a competitive business and they are telling the truth that you must make sacrifices. If you want it, go take it.

Depending on where you are in TX, you might be able to find one of the oil rig taxi operations and see if you can get in the door there doing something...

 

[Wolf22]

Re: Aviation Career

Full helo will cost you 2-4x the cost of fixed wing to get anything close to ATP or Commercial IFR......i.e, get paid to fly. Go Helo, go military.

Go military and you open up 1000's of jobs compared to 1 civi - pilot. Especially in the Gov. or Gov't contractor world.

Air line carrier as a pilot? gonna HURT. and you have to get there first, which over the next 10 years will be easier said than people think due to the shortages that are going to occur at the majors. BUT, you may be too late and hit the down turn once again and be stuck at a regional just as you were getting 'qualified' to move up. You'll need a ton of Capt. time too, turbine and/or turbo jet, which means moving around.

Naturally, if this country doesn't come apart at the seams in the next year or two........and you are always at the mercy of the economy!! Best be prepared to live on minimal $$$, live where you are based, be furloughed or forced out of domicile once/twice/thrice......etc

IMO - now is when you should've been 'qualified' with an ATP and 1500+ hours of total time.........

Not saying don't do it cuz the industry (air carrier) will be hurting over the next 10-15 years most likely, but is it worth the investment and sacrifice? I'd say no and go military to fly or work on something that'll be there, open more doors for skills and new jobs both civi and mil.

Don't forget - you need to be politically correct with anyone you work with too, so you best be thick skinned and professional or 3-xx day trips could be a great time. So get the gear #@$%^

 

[ElCoyote]

Re: Aviation Career

As a commercial pilot, A&P, IA, Certified weldor, machinist; take all of the above advice to heart. If you want to fly do it in the military.

 

[rrflyer]

Re: Aviation Career

Sto,

I hate to discourage you about flying for a career. It is a fun job but its a job that comes with a large amount of sacrifice and I'd say for most people its simply not worth it to them. Theres not really great money in flying anymore and theres certainly very little prestige left.

You need to really look hard at the career progression of most pilots and decide if your willing to do that.

How bad do you want a family and kids? Because being gone for 7 months or more out of the year makes it terribly hard. Hell I'd love to have a dog or just a freakin goldfish but I cant because I travel 6 days or more at a time.

The free travel perk isn't really there anymore either.

I'd say if you are still interested go down to your local airport and see if they will do a Demo flight with you. Usually these can be done for around half the price of a normal lesson just to see if your interested in the flying for real.


Where in TX are you located? I may be able to help you out finding someone.


As for expense from getting zero to where you can really start working your probably looking at around 30,000 bucks for all your ratings etc... I dont know what ATP is quoting you but I imagine they quote for the minimum time required not the actual time its going to take you to complete the licenses.

For example a private pilot is only required to have 40 hours but most will take around 60+ to complete there checkride and recieve the license.

Most people will train until they get there CFI, CFII, and possibly MEI. At which time they will flight isntruct for a year or so. Then they will hopefully move on to flying freight, aerial survey, banner tow, etc... etc... all jobs that will probably pay around 18,000 a year.

After a year or so of doing that you may have enough time to reach the minimums for applying to a regional airline. Most pay at regional airline starts at around 18,000 a year again and you can plan on 5 days on the road then maybe a day or two off.




You may have read a little bit about a looming "Pilot shortage" this is something thats been preached by pilot mills for the last 20 years. I can tell you we are reaching a time in the next year or two where we are going to see a large number of retirements due to mandatory retirement ages coming to fruition as well as some hiring and rest rule changes that are being implemented by the FAA which will, Hopefully, create a vaccume of talent for a bit. Bit its something that guys who have been in the business for a while are going to be taking advantage not something somebody who just starts now will have much luck with.


As for Helo guys its even more of a bastardized life than fixed wing pilots and your going to be competing for jobs with literally thousands of ex-Mil pilots with experience that is very hard to come by in the civilian side.



I dont know much about the maintenance side of things except that pilots usually think mechanics are lazy idiots and mechanics think pilots are whiny pre-madonnas! But for the most part everyone gets along and has fun doing there jobs.


I would really recommended ATC to you again. If I remember right your looking at about 8 months of training before you can be accepted by the FAA at which time you'll go to OKC for some more training and then on to your station. Mandatory retirement at age 55 and 4 day work weeks where your actual work time during the day is about 5 hours a shift. Pretty sweet deal...plus becuase of the Reagan era mass fireing there really is a shortage of people coming into that profession.



There was a website called Jetcareers.com that had a forum for aspring commercial pilots and there use to be a good number of career changers on there as well. Might be a good place to go and get some advice.


The thing you do have going for you is your still relatively young. And even if it took you 4 years or so to get into a airline cockpit you'd still have 30+ years to fly one.....


As for the Military comments its still probably your best route. Tons of free training...good benefits etc... etc... Only problem is I believe 27 is the max age for fixed wing pilots in the AF, Navy, and Marines. Plus just getting a slot is getting harder and harder.

If your interested in rotor wing stuff I believe you can apply to Warrant Officer school with the army until your 30 or 31. But transferring that rotor time over to fixed wing job when you get out becomes challenging.

Its an odd profession and a bit of a hard nut to crack...let me know if you have any more questions.

Good luck

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Aviation Career

Join the Navy and work on F-18's??

 

[TOPO-sniper]

Re: Aviation Career

College grad, will your background allow you into the military? If yes, what are you waiting for? Go fly in the military while you're young, if it doesnt turn into a career after that you have your degree to fall back on with tons of hours and pride of serving your country.

 

[Graham]

Re: Aviation Career

If you want to fly, just fly - any way, any how. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you can do that, then you really, really want to do it and money-be-damned you'll have a ball and be successful at it.

I got to the point where I would have had to drive bus for a regional and build hours ad-naueum before I could make any real money. That didn't seem like fun anymore: Not the low-and-slow close-to-the-ground hands-and-feet-flying that I loved.

So now I do it for fun. But I don't regret one minute of the journey. If I were you, and I had to ask myself one question it would be: How badly do you want it?!

 

[Phil1]

Re: Aviation Career

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sto,

I hate to discourage you about flying for a career. It is a fun job but its a job that comes with a large amount of sacrifice and I'd say for most people its simply not worth it to them. Theres not really great money in flying anymore and theres certainly very little prestige left.

You need to really look hard at the career progression of most pilots and decide if your willing to do that.

How bad do you want a family and kids? Because being gone for 7 months or more out of the year makes it terribly hard. Hell I'd love to have a dog or just a freakin goldfish but I cant because I travel 6 days or more at a time.

The free travel perk isn't really there anymore either.

I'd say if you are still interested go down to your local airport and see if they will do a Demo flight with you. Usually these can be done for around half the price of a normal lesson just to see if your interested in the flying for real.


Where in TX are you located? I may be able to help you out finding someone.


As for expense from getting zero to where you can really start working your probably looking at around 30,000 bucks for all your ratings etc... I dont know what ATP is quoting you but I imagine they quote for the minimum time required not the actual time its going to take you to complete the licenses.

For example a private pilot is only required to have 40 hours but most will take around 60+ to complete there checkride and recieve the license.

Most people will train until they get there CFI, CFII, and possibly MEI. At which time they will flight isntruct for a year or so. Then they will hopefully move on to flying freight, aerial survey, banner tow, etc... etc... all jobs that will probably pay around 18,000 a year.

After a year or so of doing that you may have enough time to reach the minimums for applying to a regional airline. Most pay at regional airline starts at around 18,000 a year again and you can plan on 5 days on the road then maybe a day or two off.




You may have read a little bit about a looming "Pilot shortage" this is something thats been preached by pilot mills for the last 20 years. I can tell you we are reaching a time in the next year or two where we are going to see a large number of retirements due to mandatory retirement ages coming to fruition as well as some hiring and rest rule changes that are being implemented by the FAA which will, Hopefully, create a vaccume of talent for a bit. Bit its something that guys who have been in the business for a while are going to be taking advantage not something somebody who just starts now will have much luck with.


As for Helo guys its even more of a bastardized life than fixed wing pilots and your going to be competing for jobs with literally thousands of ex-Mil pilots with experience that is very hard to come by in the civilian side.



I dont know much about the maintenance side of things except that pilots usually think mechanics are lazy idiots and mechanics think pilots are whiny pre-madonnas! But for the most part everyone gets along and has fun doing there jobs.


I would really recommended ATC to you again. If I remember right your looking at about 8 months of training before you can be accepted by the FAA at which time you'll go to OKC for some more training and then on to your station. Mandatory retirement at age 55 and 4 day work weeks where your actual work time during the day is about 5 hours a shift. Pretty sweet deal...plus becuase of the Reagan era mass fireing there really is a shortage of people coming into that profession.



There was a website called Jetcareers.com that had a forum for aspring commercial pilots and there use to be a good number of career changers on there as well. Might be a good place to go and get some advice.


The thing you do have going for you is your still relatively young. And even if it took you 4 years or so to get into a airline cockpit you'd still have 30+ years to fly one.....


As for the Military comments its still probably your best route. Tons of free training...good benefits etc... etc... Only problem is I believe 27 is the max age for fixed wing pilots in the AF, Navy, and Marines. Plus just getting a slot is getting harder and harder.

If your interested in rotor wing stuff I believe you can apply to Warrant Officer school with the army until your 30 or 31. But transferring that rotor time over to fixed wing job when you get out becomes challenging.

Its an odd profession and a bit of a hard nut to crack...let me know if you have any more questions.

Good luck

</div></div>

That's it in a nutshell.

Lots of discussion here:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/

If you love flying get a private lisc.

 

[PhrogDriver]

Re: Aviation Career

Before joining the military to fly (any branch), get a few hours on your own. I say this because I knew quite a few guys and gals in flight school that joined to fly then found out they didn't like flying. Some guys didn't like all the work, some guys just weren't impressed being up in the air, and some guys liked it except for the fact that they puked on every flight. Since they were already in, they went on to do other things in the service, at least until their contract was up.

If you go the Navy/Marine Corps route, you'll need to take the ASTB (Aviation Standard Test Battery). Study ahead of time, and you'll do fine. When I took it, Marines needed to score one point higher than the Navy guys in every category.

A bit more food for thought: going the Navy/Marine Corps route for helicopters will give you helo time and fixed wing time. Though the fixed wing time in flight school is only about 100 hours, it's enough to get a fixed wing commercial rating with instruments. I know helo guys that did later tours as fixed wing flight instructors and ended up leaving with more fixed wing time than helo time.

One last bit of food for thought: have you considered the Coast Guard? I know several Marine pilots that transfered to the Coast Guard, and although they took a reduction in rank (as well as pay), they felt it was worth it since they're at home more than they would have been had they stayed Marine.

If you are thinking about helos, especially Marine Corps, feel free to PM me with any questions you come up with.

- PhrogDriver

 

[Martin Taylor]

Re: Aviation Career

My father is a civilian helicopter test pilot and has been for the last 28 years, heres how he did it:

His father was a pilot for the DNR in the 50s, he wanted to be a pilot so his father said you have to pay for it. He won some sort of state/regional science fair at age 15 doing something related to aerodynamics and won $800 dollars which then combined with everything he'd been saving up paid for his fixed wing certification. He then got a full scholarship to University of Michigan for engineering and graduated as an aerospace engineer with a perfect 4.0, after this he went to work for a crappy middle of nowhere company called Entsrom helicopter taking 40% below the going rate for someone with his degree and taking 1/2 as much salary as we was offered by Bell to have them write into his contract that they will pay for his commercial helicopter rating and give him stick time every week for the rest of his career.

I told him I wanted to be a pilot a couple of years ago, he looked at me and said "if you can pay for it, be my guest."

My advice? Join the USN, try to become an AOC, provided you're under 24 that is, the program has a cutoff age of 27 but according to my recruiter they'll shove you around long enough before getting into the program that you pretty much need to be under 24 or have prior service.

 

[glocksig40]

Re: Aviation Career

I was an Air Force jet engine mechanic for 6 yrs. Got out and got A&P license. I've spent the past 21 years traveling at a moments notice to fix jet engines. It's a good job and I appreciate having money but sometimes it makes me wonder what good is the money when you spend all your time at work. Last week was 7 days long, 82 hrs worth. In 108 degree heat in Roswell, NM for 4 days. Flew back home to Dallas. Home 1 night. Up at 3:30 am to fly to Chicago. Drove to Rockford, Illinois. Worked there for 8 hrs. Drove back to Chicago and flew home. 23 hr day. Got home at 3 am. Went back to work at 7 am the next morning. When you are home you want to rest. Your wife and kids want attention, you want sleep. Wish I could get a job holding one of those slow down signs on a road construction crew. Mindless work. Good luck with your career choice. Go be a fireman or something with good benefits and lots of time off.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Aviation Career

If you love the flying, go for it, but it probably is a bad business decision because pilots are whores. Too many of us will take a job flying for starvation wages just for the sheer joy of flying. So that job you turned down because they only offered $20,000, there's a hundred guys standing in line, champing at the bit, who'll take it for $16,000.

I left the Army and flew commercial for five years but was stuck flying puddle jumpers and showed no prospect of moving very far beyond that, certainly not to a national or a major carrier. When I got tired of living on beanie-weenies and Mac 'n Cheese and always having four roommates, I quit flying and went into IT. In my first two years in IT, I made more than in all five years in the airlines.

While I was flying commuters/regionals, I worked with several guys who'd had successful business careers, then "retired" and went into aviation. They said they couldn't have afforded to start out flying for a living, so they fattened up their piggy bank first, then followed their dream.