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Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

M

makn10

Private
Minuteman
Mar 5, 2010
1
0
59
Cali
Hello All

Everywhere on the web I read how most people love the MSA Sordin Electronic Tactical Hearing protectors. I had a bad experience I want to post and maybe warn others. It is only my direct personal experience so take it as you will.

I received a pair of MSA Sordin’s Supreme Electronic Hearing Protectors as a gift. I wore them to the range for 3 hours with friends (outdoor, 9mm pistols, 400 rounds) about three months ago. The person who bought them for me read all the positive reviews (on sites like this) before buying them. I should have checked the NRR more carefully myself before wearing them to the range.

At the range MSA Sordin’s seemed like they were not blocking as much sound as my usual plain 30 dB reduction muffs (28 bucks a set), but the Sordin’s are supposed to be a quality product, tested and block more 4000 Hz gun blast better etc. (and cost $200+ bucks) so I figured they were OK for one day at the range. Worst mistake of my life (to date anyway).

The day was very windy with a lot of “wind howl” so I turned the electronics off (the cut off at 85 dB way too high for comfort anyway). The wind created a false baseline of noise so it was hard to tell how well the ear protectors were working. I did not feel discomfort at the noise I experienced. Shortly after shooting I got back in the quiet cab of the truck I knew I was in big trouble. My hearing was muffled and quickly I developed a hideous ringing in both ears.

It turns out after visiting the audiologist (I had great hearing before this incident) the Sordin’s let through enough noise to damage my hearing into developing to Tinnitus, but not enough noise to make me uncomfortable and seek more protection. With these muffs you believe you are protecting yourself but you are imperceptibly damaging you hearing with every shot. Hearing damage is cumulative, so all those individual shots add up to a big problem.

After wearing the highest rated muffs for years of comfortable shooting with no issues, I developed a bad case of Tinnitus in a single day wearing the Sordin’s. Now I have a roaring in each ear 24 hours a day. I am having trouble sleeping and concentrating, it is very bad news.

After my injury I reviewed the Sordin website in detail. Sordin’s strategy (per their website) of “minimal sound attenuation” is a bad idea in my opinion. In a potential high noise environment you need as much protection as possible, not the minimum as Sordin provides.

Further checking the Sordin site, Sordin muffs only reduce the acoustic signature about 16 dB, not nearly enough to protect you. 9mm pistol blast = 148 Decibels, Sordin reduction = 16 Decibels, net exposure = 132 Decibels. Anything over 85 creates permanent hearing loss, so using Sordin’s you are on your way to trouble.

Learn from my mistake and protect your hearing. Going deaf is not the worse thing can happen, living with Tinnitus roaring in your head for every second of your life is a nightmare. Buy the highest rated muffs 30 dB+ and wear ear plugs underneath also (for another 15 dB reduction). You will never know the misery you are avoiding. You are one shot away from hearing trouble, please don’t risk injuries like mine.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

Hmmm...

I wore mine daily for two years when I was doing the full time firearms instructor gig and haven't had problem one. I doubled up when we did rifle training but pistol work was done in "tac bays" and under concrete baffles and never felt the first hint of discomfort or ringing in my ears wearing only the Sordins.

Love mine.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

Interesting first post...
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

It's because you turned them off, genious, they are electronic, they need to be on to work properly.

If the ambient noice is to much, turn down the volume.

That said, if you are in a very loud environment, you should double up anyway.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's because you turned them off, genious, they are electronic, they need to be on to work properly.</div></div>

Well, no.

If turned off, you still get the noise reduction of the muffs as if they were not electronic. No muff dealing with impulse noise has the kind of active noise reduction characterstic of devices like the Bose QuietComfort headsets, which deal only with relatively constant noise.

If you're going to ridicule someone's comment, it's a good idea to be right. In addition, I'm afraid that you misspelled genius.

Now, the Sordin's NRR of only 16 db, if that's accurate, is considerably less than the 25 db NRR of the Peltor Comtacs which I wear. Inside a structure or under a reflective roof, though, I'll still double plug, especially around .50 cals or other loud weapons, or a bunch of guys with carbines.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

I almost always wear my Sordins in conjunction with ear plugs... I find they are decent ear protection but no single ear protection is perfect.

Shooting firearms is very dangerous regarding noise, even with the best protection-- there will be times (indoors, under roofed in areas, shooting close to a 50bmg) that you will need more than one layer of hearing protection.

ETA-

One note-- I have a really hard time believing that you shooting a 9mm outdoors with Sordins could damage your hearing. You must have been in some sort of inclosed area for the sound to bounce back. A roofed in place like Oak Tree perhaps?
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

Sorry Lindy, There was intended to be a touch of sarcasm in my previous post. The advantage of electronic muffs is that you can hear ambient sound, but not damaging ones. I was poking a little fun at him.

I just really, really hate it when someone joins just to post a "This company screwed me...warning, I am just here to try to damage them so i can feel better about myself." comment.

I did mis-spell genius, I hit the O and I at the same time...and i can't spell worth a crap!

MSA Sordins rating is 18, not 16. Either way, one should double up and turn up the volume in multi-gun situations.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

hmmmmm...my Sordin's have worked well in the 4 years that i have had them. I had other muffs before that, and they werew too uncomfortable to wear when doing rifle work.

As to turning them off, they should still have provided some nominal protection. I recall mine are rated at 19 db but could be wrong it was over 4 years ago. When doing considerable indoor work or work under a roof, I double up to give myself maximum protection.

As to wind noise, is there reason you didn't just turn down the sensitivity/volume to eliminate the wind noise?

JeffVN
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

I don't know where the idea comes from that turning the electronics on or off makes some difference to the protection level.

It does not.

The muffs reduce the level of sound reaching the ear canal, and also reduces the level of sound conducted through the bone structure around the ear.

As long as the sound level through the electronics is clipped at a level which is less than the outside sound level minus the noise reduction level of the muffs alone with no electronics - which is always the case - whether the electronic mikes and amplifiers are on or off makes no difference.

It sounds like some have the idea that the electronics play an active role in noise reduction. That is not the case. The muffs have exactly the same level of noise protection whether the electronics are on or off.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

P.S. - I did a little research on Peltors and Sordins.

There are two methods of testing noise reduction - the European standard and the ANSI standards. The different standards produce different numbers, but the Peltor Comtacs and the Sordin Supreme Pros have the same ratings under comparable testing standards.

Double plugging is a good idea in really noisy environments.

 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

Nothing but good things to say about the MSA Sordin's from my experience.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

I have nothing but good experiences with the MSA Sordin electronic muffs (Supreme Pro-X). I use the gel seals and they work very well and are very comfortable. One thing to check is to ensure you have good seal. Sometimes things like eye protection and head wear can compromise the seal, which leads to diminished sound reduction.

I do agree that doubling up can be wise depending on your situation.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"> <span style="font-size: 11pt">
I have been ready to buy a pair of these for some time. I just can't decide whether to the get the headband or the behind the head pair. I would rather have the behind the head model if it works as well. Has anybody got experience with the behind the head model? Are they secure? Can you wear a ball cap without interference? Any problems with getting a good seal while wearing glasses? Thanks.

Bob
</span> </span>
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

I have the headband version, and when I am at the range I usually have ballcap on, and I havent had any comfort issues with the head band. And if you pick up a set order the gel ear cups/pads they are super comfomfortable when wearing glasses. They also let the muffs seal around your ear with glasses on. I have shot next to a gentleman with a 300 win mag with a brake and my Sordins protected me just fine, however if I was going to be next to him for more than 15 min, I would have doubled up with some plugs just to be on the safe side.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

As Lindy stated, the electronics only help amplify noise not block it out, that we all know.

Don't flame a guy because his first post was a public service announcement. He didn't say MSA sucks so buy some other XYZ brand, he simply said that they weren't rated high enough to wear without doubling up and maybe MSA should explain that better.

Honestly, I agree with him. Most electronic muffs are lucky to rate 20 in db noise reduction where several of the non electronic ones are 30ish. If you are going to wear electronic muffs it's a damn good idea to double up. Also, it depends on where you're standing in the shooting and in relation to barriers and other shooters. Sounds like he got the worst of it that day and is paying for it.

Makn10X, welcome to the hide, I'm sorry for your experience and as a guy who wishes his hearing was better I do feel for you.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

I always felt the purpose of the electronic was so you can always double up and still hear range commands.
I totally sympathize. I have really bad tinnitus. It truly sucks.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Makn10X</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hello All


9mm pistol blast = 148 Decibels, Sordin reduction = 16 Decibels, net exposure = 132 Decibels. Anything over 85 creates permanent hearing loss, so using Sordin’s you are on your way to trouble.
</div></div>
Plenty of data available that correlates hearing loss and noise exposure. Both intensity and duration combine to create "total" exposure. Here are some OSHA guidelines for when hearing protection is required...anything over the limit shown requires hearing protection.
---------------------------------------------
Safe hearing threshold (unlimited exposure) = 85dB
Safe hearing threshold (4 hours) = 95dB
Safe hearing threshold (2 hours) = 100dB
Safe hearing threshold (15 minutes) = 115dB
Safe hearing threshold > 115dB requires hearing protection at all times....not safe above 115
Pain threshold = around 130dB...it is painfully loud.
---------------------------------------------
How loud are centerfire rifles, measured at the shooter's ear?

Browning 270cal without brake = 157dB
Browning 270cal WITH BOSS brake = 165dB (even louder if you are unlucky enough to be next to the shooter)
The noise level doubles every 4dB, so the brake makes the gun 4x louder.
---------------------------------------------
How much protection is provided by:

-Foam ear plugs: 28-32dB (IF inserted fully into ear canal)
-Ear Muffs: 18-28dB
-Suppressor: 25-33dB
-Every inch in barrel length will reduce the noise level at the shooter's ear...don't know the exact amount.
-----------------------------------------------

From these facts, we can figure out a few things.
1. More than 2 or 3 shots in quick succession from a centerfire rifle is likely to cause permanent hearing loss.
2. A single shot from a braked rifle will cause permanent hearing loss
3. Using ear muffs or plugs alone will drop the noise level down to 157-32=125dB with the best plugs. This is just below the pain threshold. SO, it is pretty clear that extended shooting sessions with just ear muffs/plugs CAN cause hearing loss. The longer the exposure, the more likely it is to happen.
4. Using muffs and plugs together gets the noise level down to 157-32-25 = around 100dB. Note, this is STILL above the unlimited exposure threshold of 85dB. So, even with muffs & plugs, you would not want to be at a busy range for more than a few hours.

LESSON LEARNED: Double up! The more you are exposed (duration + intensity), the more important this is. Also, when hunting, do your ears a favor and use longer barrels (and no brakes obviously).
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

From these facts, we can figure out a few things.
1. More than 2 or 3 shots in quick succession from a centerfire rifle is likely to cause permanent hearing loss.
2. A single shot from a braked rifle will cause permanent hearing loss
3. Using ear muffs or plugs alone will drop the noise level down to 157-32=125dB with the best plugs. This is just below the pain threshold. SO, it is pretty clear that extended shooting sessions with just ear muffs/plugs CAN cause hearing loss. The longer the exposure, the more likely it is to happen.
4. Using muffs and plugs together gets the noise level down to 157-32-25 = around 100dB. Note, this is STILL above the unlimited exposure threshold of 85dB. So, even with muffs & plugs, you would not want to be at a busy range for more than a few hours.

LESSON LEARNED: Double up! The more you are exposed (duration + intensity), the more important this is. Also, when hunting, do your ears a favor and use longer barrels (and no brakes obviously). </div></div>

I agree with the substance of your post and hearing loss/injury is nothing to fool around with. Laying out $2-3,000 per ear for hearing aids for the rest of your life is the end result of loud noise exposure.

I find it difficult to believe a severe case of tinnitus results from a single exposure to 400 rounds of 9mm. But every individual is different.

Some of the OSHA guidelines would have a person believe that every military service personnel, farmer, pilot,rock musician, heavy equipment operator would be deaf after a year. The discharge of firearms isn't the only place where loud noises originate. Be it the hammering of steel in a workshop or plowing the back 40 acres.

I personally use electronic alone for .22 rim-fire to handgun and double protection for rifle.

Chart from OSH on noise.

we use a set of simple rules as summarized in Table 3.
Table 3
Decibel (dB) basics
Change in dB Change in sound energy
3 dB increase Sound energy doubled
3 dB decrease Sound energy halved
10 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 10
10 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 10
20 dB increase Sound energy increased by factor of 100
20 dB decrease Sound energy decreased by factor of 100
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

Most of the easily found reference to sound power levels relate to constant levels of noise rather than impulse noise.

You can find a lot of information on the subject of impulse noise by doing a Google search on "hearing loss impulse noise".

In addition, noise obeys an inverse-square law, which means that there is a significant difference whether you are the shooter, or your are in the vicinity of someone who is shooting.

An earplug inside a muff will provide better protection.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

When I teach a firearms course, the first day always includes a hygiene and hearing/eye protection lecture. The three things I have to impress on students about hearing loss:

1. Its permanent (does not fix itself over time)
2. Its cumulative (concerts, hunting and loud exhausts add up)
3. Its irreversible (no known fix)

Plugs do not protect the areas around the ear canal. The bones in your head can conduct sound into your ear. Covering your ear with muffs reduces this effect.
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobcape</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"> <span style="font-size: 11pt">
I have been ready to buy a pair of these for some time. I just can't decide whether to the get the headband or the behind the head pair. I would rather have the behind the head model if it works as well. Has anybody got experience with the behind the head model? Are they secure? Can you wear a ball cap without interference? Any problems with getting a good seal while wearing glasses? Thanks.

Bob
</span> </span> </div></div>

I have tried the neckband version and did not like it. I found it very annoying when the rear strap would make contact with a collar or hood. When I turned my head the sound of the friction was transmitted to my ears. I was like listening to a big chick walking in corduroy pants all day.

No matter what, get the Gel ring replacements. They are much softer, and provide a much better seal against your head if your are wearing glasses(you should be) and a hat.

http://www.triadtactical.com/MISC-Shooting-Gear/
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Triad</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bobcape</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"> <span style="font-size: 11pt">
I have been ready to buy a pair of these for some time. I just can't decide whether to the get the headband or the behind the head pair. I would rather have the behind the head model if it works as well. Has anybody got experience with the behind the head model? Are they secure? Can you wear a ball cap without interference? Any problems with getting a good seal while wearing glasses? Thanks.

Bob
</span> </span> </div></div>

I have tried the neckband version and did not like it. I found it very annoying when the rear strap would make contact with a collar or hood. When I turned my head the sound of the friction was transmitted to my ears. I was like listening to a big chick walking in corduroy pants all day.

No matter what, get the Gel ring replacements. They are much softer, and provide a much better seal against your head if your are wearing glasses(you should be) and a hat.

http://www.triadtactical.com/MISC-Shooting-Gear/ </div></div>
<span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS'"> <span style="font-size: 11pt">
Thank you very much. That's what I was after. I was ready to order the neck band model. Now I will re-think. I'll order from you soon. Thanks! (Really like the rear bag I got from you.)

Bob </span> </span>
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs



Sorry to hear about your issue.

One question, were you wearing glasses?


..
 
Re: Bad experience with MSA Sordin Ear Muffs

....can you hear me now? I shot thousands of rounds of everything from .22 to .45-70, ran backhoes, tractors, mowers, brake presses, air impacts, grinders, etc....before anybody "knew" you were supposed to wear hearing protection. My hearing is not perfect, but I'm not deaf either....just think, I could've been the "poster child" for OSHA...
 
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