Bail out bag medical

[mtm87tx]

hypothetically, we carry handguns daily with our CHL, hoping that the day never comes where we have to use them, but if it did.

what are the legallitys of a non-licensed EMT/doctor administering first aid to someone suffering from gun shot wounds? There is alot that goes on in that first hour that can save a life but in todays world are you going to get sued?

I dont want to use quick clot or anything because I am not a professional nor have medical back ground but what about simple clean and pressure pads to stop excess bleeding if a family member or friend happens to get hit?

my greatest fear is helplessly standing over a loved one watching them suffer helplessly until help arrive..

what simple tools and how are the used to do what I can do help chances of survival?

i am also looking for some classes that have a hands on approach to medical attention to wounds. opinions?

 

[readytorock556]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Civilians giving first aid fall into the good samaritan law, and in most states you can't be prosecuted.


The american red cross first responders course isn't bad at all. You learn medical, trauma, OB and a few other areas of first response. Plus the course work isn't that long.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Bail out bag medical

#1 get training

#2 you are covered by your locales good samaritan law, consult it and decide for yourself.

 

[fireEMT5]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Alot of states have a "good sameritan" law which may cover you. Check into the laws of your state. In a nut shell, these laws generally protect those who stop to offer assistance and generally shield them (you) from liability as long as you are acting in good faith and not negligent in your actions.

As far as classes go, look into the Red Cross. You can also contact your local fire dept. or hospital and inquire where first repsonder or EMT training is given.

What to carry:

First and foremost, some protective gloves to protect yourself. No sense in you dying or catching something from someone else. As an EMT, I never touch another person without personal protective equipment, however a known family member could/would be an exception.

4x4, 8x10, abdominal pads, etc. and a couple rolls of qauze, maybe a SAM splint..... the list can go on and on.

Search out and go get some training, then you'll know if you want to get into it.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Watch the movie Shooter a few times and take notes. It covers the subject pretty well.

 

[RobertHode]

Re: Bail out bag medical

I have worked in a large west coast fire dept. as a paramedic for the last 35 years, and I have seen a lot of gunshot wounds.

The bottom line is 1. call 911, 2. stop/slow the bleeding the best you can with direct pressure using your hands and what ever absorbent material you have...commercial dressings, t-shirt, whatever.

If the wound is minor the person will be o.k. even if you just stand there and smile.

If the wound is moderate, you could save his life by doing 1 & 2 above.

If the wound is critical no matter what yo do the person will probably bleed to death unless or even if you get them to surgery asap.

Since you don't know which type person you have...see 1 & 2 above.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Using your BOB med kit implies TSHTF, so is E911 TSHTF-proof?

 

[RobertHode]

Re: Bail out bag medical

In a TSHTF senario you will not be able to count on 911.
The minor gsw will be o.k.
The moderate gsw may survive
The critical gsw will more than likely will die.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Ronin has a good GSW tutorial as well. Remember - "no booze".

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ronin has a good GSW tutorial as well. Remember - "no booze". </div></div>

_9H, my G**gle-fu is weak and I couldn't find anything by Ronin but I did find this informative thread on GSW treatment started by long-shot. Can I trouble you for a link to Ronin's tutorial?

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

The only thing you need to carry is a shitload of gauze to stop bleeding, a tourniquet, and an emergency blanket to keep warm and help control shock.

Again stop the bleeding, keep them calm by talking to them, people forget that and it does soooo much. Loosen clothes and keep warm.
Move them just enough to control the bleeding or get out of immediate danger. Otherwise do not move at all.
Lean CPR. All you have to do is stabilize the patient until ambulance arrives. Brief EMT upon arrival on what you did and saw.

R.

 

[heydavemd]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Application of quickclot could get you into trouble (its use is restricted, like a prescription medicine), and its unlikely to make a difference in a life or death situation. As someone who started out as a paramedic in the 70's, add worked his way up to an ER physician who has done 3 combat tours, I can tell you the KISS principal applies. There are 3 golden rules to to emergency medicine, and they always work. "If it's broken pull on it, if its bleeding push on it, and if you drop the baby, pick it up". this mantra has served many, quite well.

 

[bmt]

Re: Bail out bag medical

FWIW:

Kinda Spooky, we all think we won't get hit. But good guys often do.

My home defense shotgun has a "stock pack" attached with an Isreali Bandage inside. Can't hurt, might help.

Agree with the other posters, get trained. ThunderRanch has a good course on this: Home and Vehicle Defense. I took it in July.

BMT

 

[huntinggamo]

Re: Bail out bag medical

quick clot is a definite no go, it causes more damage than good because it causes an exothermic reaction, more or less cauterizes the wound. ER doctors have reported that it can cause up to twice as much damage to tissue than if left un-treated. (not to mention people have a tenancy to use it on non-life threating wounds, causing a LOT MORE damage) Celox is a much better solution to have on hand, just have to make sure your patient is not allergic to shell fish.

I would also stay away from tourniquet except for use on yourself of a close family member...ect, another source of great liability.

of course this all is assuming that you are within a reasonable distance to medical help. i carry a tourniquet when i am hunting or deep in the bush somewhere...ect

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hattori Hanz&#333;</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ronin has a good GSW tutorial as well. Remember - "no booze". </div></div>

_9H, my G**gle-fu is weak and I couldn't find anything by Ronin but I did find this informative thread on GSW treatment started by long-shot. Can I trouble you for a link to Ronin's tutorial? </div></div>

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0122690/ </div></div>
VERY funny!

Make mine an Audi 8, thank you very much.

 

[bmt]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt M.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">quick clot is a definite no go, it causes more damage than good because it causes an exothermic reaction, more or less cauterizes the wound. ER doctors have reported that it can cause up to twice as much damage to tissue than if left un-treated. (not to mention people have a tenancy to use it on non-life threating wounds, causing a LOT MORE damage) Celox is a much better solution to have on hand, just have to make sure your patient is not allergic to shell fish.

</div></div>

Agree about Quik Clot. It is a special use item. Example would be Jamie Smith of "BlackHawk Down" fame.

The nature of the wound prevent pressure from working (hip area).

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gixRgsPFR7g"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gixRgsPFR7g" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

BMT

 

[Downzero]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Really
Big
Breasts
Should
Fill
Both
Hands

and you guys are giving me flashbacks to good times

Thanks.

 

[Longshot38]

Re: Bail out bag medical

As a citizen rendering first aid you can't be sued. However if your treatment moves beyond 1st aid then you are liable and can be held criminally and civilly liable for your actions. In other words if one does more then basic wound care and CPR then you can be held liable for your actions.

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Like i said, you need to just stabilize the patient, i.e. stop bleeding and treat for shock. Remember you're not a doctor or EMT.

What I carried in my blowout kit on my vest and works great as a tourniquet is a small rachet strap from home depot (about 1.5" wide). They work great, you can operate it with one hand if need be, and tightens down very well. It's an option if you don't have the new one handed tourniquets.

When I got hit I lost the use of my right arm, so I'm a fan of one handed use items. Just as I'm a fan of keeping your blowout kit in reach of both hands. It helped me a lot.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Bail out bag medical

For those of you writing about Quik Clot, you are misinformed and should research the product prior to giving advice on it. There are numerous misconceptions about this product that bridge the gap from old wives tales told in the field to doctor's offering erroneous medical advice. The facts are as follows:
1. "Exothermic Reaction"/"It gets hot and causes damage"/"It cauterizes the wound"... FALSE. The original granular Quik Clot (discontinued years ago) did get hot upon application. It didn't get hot enough to cauterize the wound though. The heat was a result of the physical properties of absorbing blood (i.e. friction). The currently produced product is called COMBAT GAUZE. It operates on an entirely different principle and there is NO HEAT associated with its use.

2. "It causes damage to tissue"... FALSE. The original product, as stated above, did have the potential to cause some tissue damage due to the heat. But that was tissue that would generally be excised from the wound cavity at surgery anyway since it was part of the contaminated wound tract. As someone correctly stated, that product was for use treating life threatening bleeding. Given the choice of some burns or certain death from bleeding, I would opt for the burns every time.

3. "Shell Fish allergy"... FALSE. That's not Quik Clot, Combat Gauze or Celox. That is an entirely different product, Hemcon, that is made from Chitosan which is a derivative of shellfish. As far as the allergy claim, there has never been an actual medical study that showed this to be possible. It is more of a theoretical concept that has not borne out in reality.

4. Quik Clot = FAIL. Really? Every branch of the U.S. military carries Quik Clot Combat Gauze in their IFAK's. It has been used thousands of times and saved hundreds of lives. It is in use domestically by numerous law enforcement and EMS services. It is commonly used in urban trauma centers to control bleeding prior to surgery. Basically, there are a bunch of soldiers walking around that would tend to disagree with your assessment.

As far as the rest of the medical advice on this thread, some of it is very good but in the end the people who suggest getting some hands on training are spot on. This subject is way too important to relegate to packing a bag full of supplies and hoping for the best. At least it occurred to you that someone could actually get shot and you are trying to do something to prepare for it. It always amazes me that people will spend thousands of dollars for every shooting widget under the sun and then when it comes time to buy a piece of gear that will save a life they run to Home Depot and buy a gear ratchet to save $20. Buy a real tourniquet, a real pressure dressing, some Combat Gauze (for non compressible wounds not amenable to tourniquet placement), gloves, etc. Get a class on how to use the items and you will be set. By the way, CPR is for people who have heart attacks and not for trauma victims. If they are in cardiac arrest following trauma it is because they have either run out of blood or because some organ (i.e. heart, brain, lungs) is so damaged that they can't function. In other words, they are dead. The military, who has learned a thing or two about trauma in the last eight years, no longer performs CPR on the battlefield. The survival rate is zero in that scenario.

And, by the way, yeah-yeah-yeah this is like my third post on Sniper's Hide so everyone jam on their keyboards about what a dick I am for daring to disagree with what they wrote. Lack of posts and being a new guy doesn't mean I don't happen to know a whole bunch about this particular subject. I joined this forum to learn about long range shooting but this subject caught my eye. This happens to be what I do, pre-hospital trauma medicine, so I thought I would attempt to help educate y'all on some of the misconceptions being floated out there. If this gets me flamed then I give up.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: delete my log inID</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For those of you writing about Quik Clot, you are misinformed and should research the product prior to giving advice on it. There are numerous misconceptions about this product that bridge the gap from old wives tales told in the field to doctor's offering erroneous medical advice. The facts are as follows:
1. "Exothermic Reaction"/"It gets hot and causes damage"/"It cauterizes the wound"... FALSE. The original granular Quik Clot (discontinued years ago) did get hot upon application. It didn't get hot enough to cauterize the wound though. The heat was a result of the physical properties of absorbing blood (i.e. friction). The currently produced product is called COMBAT GAUZE. It operates on an entirely different principle and there is NO HEAT associated with its use.

2. "It causes damage to tissue"... FALSE. The original product, as stated above, did have the potential to cause some tissue damage due to the heat. But that was tissue that would generally be excised from the wound cavity at surgery anyway since it was part of the contaminated wound tract. As someone correctly stated, that product was for use treating life threatening bleeding. Given the choice of some burns or certain death from bleeding, I would opt for the burns every time.

3. "Shell Fish allergy"... FALSE. That's not Quik Clot, Combat Gauze or Celox. That is an entirely different product, Hemcon, that is made from Chitosan which is a derivative of shellfish. As far as the allergy claim, there has never been an actual medical study that showed this to be possible. It is more of a theoretical concept that has not borne out in reality.

4. Quik Clot = FAIL. Really? Every branch of the U.S. military carries Quik Clot Combat Gauze in their IFAK's. It has been used thousands of times and saved hundreds of lives. It is in use domestically by numerous law enforcement and EMS services. It is commonly used in urban trauma centers to control bleeding prior to surgery. Basically, there are a bunch of soldiers walking around that would tend to disagree with your assessment.

As far as the rest of the medical advice on this thread, some of it is very good but in the end the people who suggest getting some hands on training are spot on. This subject is way too important to relegate to packing a bag full of supplies and hoping for the best. At least it occurred to you that someone could actually get shot and you are trying to do something to prepare for it. It always amazes me that people will spend thousands of dollars for every shooting widget under the sun and then when it comes time to buy a piece of gear that will save a life they run to Home Depot and buy a gear ratchet to save $20. Buy a real tourniquet, a real pressure dressing, some Combat Gauze (for non compressible wounds not amenable to tourniquet placement), gloves, etc. Get a class on how to use the items and you will be set. By the way, CPR is for people who have heart attacks and not for trauma victims. If they are in cardiac arrest following trauma it is because they have either run out of blood or because some organ (i.e. heart, brain, lungs) is so damaged that they can't function. In other words, they are dead. The military, who has learned a thing or two about trauma in the last eight years, no longer performs CPR on the battlefield. The survival rate is zero in that scenario.

And, by the way, yeah-yeah-yeah this is like my third post on Sniper's Hide so everyone jam on their keyboards about what a dick I am for daring to disagree with what they wrote. Lack of posts and being a new guy doesn't mean I don't happen to know a whole bunch about this particular subject. I joined this forum to learn about long range shooting but this subject caught my eye. This happens to be what I do, pre-hospital trauma medicine, so I thought I would attempt to help educate y'all on some of the misconceptions being floated out there. If this gets me flamed then I give up. </div></div>

Just to be first in line....you're a newbie dick

....and 110% correct, welcome!

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Bail out bag medical

LOL. Thanks. I got blasted by some dude last time I tried to write something strictly for being new and daring to write something. I could never figure out how you got to get any posts under your belt if you didn't dare to ever write anything because you didn't have any posts... Catch 22 anyone???

 

[cav has been]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Good post Delete! Thanks.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Wow! Thanks for pointing out my ridiculous User Name (I had tried to change it previously and apparently did it wrong). I guess I am a Newb screw up... Hahaha.

Back to the subject though, check out this link or just go to YouTube and put in "Combat Gauze". It is a training video and explains the product and how it works. WARNING, it has a live tissue demonstration which means they use the product on a live animal. So lots of blood. Of course, if the sight of blood bothers you then you are going to be a real mess when it comes time to use this stuff for real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3TUKKx0cus

 

[akmike]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heydavemd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Application of quickclot could get you into trouble (its use is restricted, like a prescription medicine), and its unlikely to make a difference in a life or death situation. As someone who started out as a paramedic in the 70's, add worked his way up to an ER physician who has done 3 combat tours, I can tell you the KISS principal applies. There are 3 golden rules to to emergency medicine, and they always work. "If it's broken pull on it, if its bleeding push on it, and if you drop the baby, pick it up". this mantra has served many, quite well. </div></div>


I have a question regarding your statement about quickclot being "restricted". I can buy it off the shelf at REI and several local sporting goods stores? I had seen what I believe was an older version for sale and the vendor limited sales to LEO, 1st Responders, Military etc. I thought I had read that the newer version does not get hot like the older version. The instructions I've read indicate it is a last resort for control of blood loss, if all the basics are not working.

I've had the thought that it would be handy if a major trama occured where EMS was a long time away?

No experience here as any kind of expert, just trying to learn.

 

[akmike]

Re: Bail out bag medical

JB, you long post on the subject correlates with what I've read about the more current generation of the quikclot products. But what do I know, you could be a shill for the company

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

I heard the same thing. The new quickclot works better than the old. The old is the one that was causing the damage and burning the tissue. Even then, our team would not use the stuff, we just carried a lot of bandages and stuff the wound with them to stop the bleeding. If that didn't work we would use the tourniquet.

A lot has been learned about them since the war started. You can keep one on for 8 hours and not lose the limb. Unfortunately the information is a bit slow getting back to the real world and medical personnel.

R.

 

[jbgleason]

Re: Bail out bag medical

You are correct. When it comes to medical, don't listen to anyone's opinion if they can't back it up with medical studies. Google the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care (CoTCCC) and read their recommendations on hemostatics based upon studies done by the U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research (USAISR). Hint, they chose Combat Gauze. This committee is the recommendation authority on trauma care to the U.S. Military. A high powered 8 pound brain roomful of people who know what they are talking about. Them I would listen to.

 

[smokshwn]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I heard the same thing. The new quickclot works better than the old. The old is the one that was causing the damage and burning the tissue. Even then, our team would not use the stuff, we just carried a lot of bandages and stuff the wound with them to stop the bleeding. If that didn't work we would use the tourniquet.

A lot has been learned about them since the war started. You can keep one on for 8 hours and not lose the limb. Unfortunately the information is a bit slow getting back to the real world and medical personnel.

R. </div></div>

Actually its simply slow to get back to lazy medical personnel who have never bothered to educate themselves in the first place or keep up with current literature. The information on hemostatic products has been well published and updated as the generational product changes have occurred.

The second problem is uneducated/untrained internet commandos repeating ad nauseum false/outdated information in an effort to sound informed. To listen to some idiots you would think that putting some QuikClot on a GSW would result in the patient spontaneously combusting.

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rickp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I heard the same thing. The new quickclot works better than the old. The old is the one that was causing the damage and burning the tissue. Even then, our team would not use the stuff, we just carried a lot of bandages and stuff the wound with them to stop the bleeding. If that didn't work we would use the tourniquet.

A lot has been learned about them since the war started. You can keep one on for 8 hours and not lose the limb. Unfortunately the information is a bit slow getting back to the real world and medical personnel.

R. </div></div>
The second problem is uneducated/untrained internet commandos repeating ad nauseum false/outdated information</div></div>

AMEN to that brother!!!!!!

I would agree with what you said.

I call those idiots regurgitators. THey haven't seen or been involved in fraction of second worth of combat time yet pass along information as if they had. Hense the cycle of crap.
The same goes with weapon training and techniques, the arm chair commandos are busy at regurgitating that info too.

R.

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hattori Hanz&#333;</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
"Shell Fish allergy"... FALSE. That's not Quik Clot, Combat Gauze or Celox. That is an entirely different product, Hemcon, that is made from Chitosan which is a derivative of shellfish.
</div></div>

<span style="font-style: italic">An alternative hemostatic dressing: comparison of CELOX, HemCon, and QuikClot.

Kozen BG, Kircher SJ, Henao J, Godinez FS, Johnson AS.

Department of Emergency Medicine, Naval Medical Center, Portsmouth, VA, USA. [email protected]
Abstract

OBJECTIVES: Uncontrolled hemorrhage remains a leading cause of traumatic death. Several topical adjunct agents have been shown to be effective in controlling hemorrhage, and two, chitosan wafer dressing (HemCon [HC]) and zeolite powder dressing (QuikClot [QC]), are being utilized regularly on the battlefield. However, recent literature reviews have concluded that no ideal topical agent exists. The authors compared <span style="font-weight: bold">a new chitosan granule dressing (CELOX [CX])</span> to HC, QC and standard dressing in a lethal hemorrhagic groin injury.

METHODS: A complex groin injury with transection of the femoral vessels and 3 minutes of uncontrolled hemorrhage was created in 48 swine. The animals were then randomized to four treatment groups (12 animals each). Group 1 included <span style="font-weight: bold">standard gauze dressing (SD)</span>; Group 2, CX; Group 3, HC; and Group 4, QC. Each agent was applied with 5 minutes of manual pressure followed by a standard field compression dressing. Hetastarch (500 mL) was infused over 30 minutes. Hemodynamic parameters were recorded over 180 minutes. Primary endpoints included rebleed and death.

RESULTS: )<span style="font-weight: bold">CX reduced rebleeding to 0% (p < 0.001)</span>, HC to 33% (95% CI = 19.7% to 46.3%, p = 0.038), and QC to 8% (95% CI = 3.3% to 15.7%, p = 0.001), compared to 83% (95% CI = 72.4% to 93.6%) for SD. <span style="font-weight: bold">CX improved survival to 100%</span> compared to SD at 50% (95% CI = 35.9% to 64.2%, p = 0.018). <span style="font-weight: bold">Survival for HC (67%) (95% CI = 53.7% to 80.3%) and QC (92%; 95% CI = 84.3% to 99.7%) did not differ from SD.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">CONCLUSIONS: In this porcine model of uncontrolled hemorrhage, CX improved hemorrhage control and survival. CELOX is a viable alternative for the treatment of severe hemorrhage.</span>
</span>

Here is the link to the entire study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18211317

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. "It causes damage to tissue"... FALSE. The original product, as stated above, did have the potential to cause some tissue damage due to the heat. <span style="font-weight: bold">But that was tissue that would generally be excised from the wound cavity at surgery anyway since it was part of the contaminated wound tract.</span> As someone correctly stated, that product was for use treating life threatening bleeding. Given the choice of some burns or certain death from bleeding, I would opt for the burns every time.</div></div>

My understanding is that surgeons were having trouble when removing the QC because it also pulled the clot out with it, causing unnecessary bleeding. To my knowledge QC must be removed by cutting. Celox can be rinsed away with saline after the clot has formed. Any remaining will be broken down naturally.
"Chitosan is a natural polysaccharide (polymer made of sugars) and has been shown to be broken down to basic sugars (glucosamine & n-acetyl glucosamine) by lysozyme, one of the body’s normal enzymes." -- Manufacturer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Quik Clot = FAIL. Really? Every branch of the U.S. military carries Quik Clot Combat Gauze in their IFAK's. It has been used thousands of times and saved hundreds of lives. It is in use domestically by numerous law enforcement and EMS services. It is commonly used in urban trauma centers to control bleeding prior to surgery. Basically, there are a bunch of soldiers walking around that would tend to disagree with your assessment.</div></div>

I don't doubt that it's better than nothing... but there are better products out there. What an agency chooses to issue often has more to do with costs/supply. If I have to choose, I'm picking the best. YMMV
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JB Gleason</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And, by the way, yeah-yeah-yeah this is like my third post on Sniper's Hide so everyone jam on their keyboards about what a dick I am for daring to disagree with what they wrote. Lack of posts and being a new guy doesn't mean I don't happen to know a whole bunch about this particular subject. I joined this forum to learn about long range shooting but this subject caught my eye. This happens to be what I do, pre-hospital trauma medicine, so I thought I would attempt to help educate y'all on some of the misconceptions being floated out there. If this gets me flamed then I give up.
</div></div>

Thanks for assuming we're all dicks before you even get to know us. The info here benefits everyone, that's why I am here. I don't know everything & if someone out there has better knowledge to me, then I would like to learn that. In the end our entire community benefits from these discussions, even at times if we disagree initially. </div></div>


When was that letter written?

We had our 18D's brief us that the original QC was not to be used due to the intense heat it produced, causing burn damage in addition to the initial wound, not because of it was difficult to remove in the OR. Our whole team stopped using it because of that as was the case with most teams we ran into on the roads.

When the new stuff came out then the story changed. Some of the guys carried it for situations where a tourniquet could not be used as in the pelvic region for example.

Also, just cause the Army uses it is no reason to use it. Anyone that has been in the army knows that. Sometimes it's the last thing you want to use.
Again, A LOT has been learned since the beginning of the war and a lot of medical TTP's have changed because of it. Also, combat medicine is a bit different than regular back in the world medicine.

 

[biner626]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Great info. This debate has come up numerous times at my service. The powers that be have decided against using it due to the fact that a leading local trauma MD doesnt ike it. JB Gleason I think ill use some of your research to try to sway him in its favor. Thanks for posting.

 

[lrrifle]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Agree with JB Gleason... and have a little experience in the field of emergency medical care. Combat Gauze in all of my kits, along with all the usual accoutrements. Remember there as many theories and opinions about first aid/emergency medicine as there are practitioners. Solid research and positive historical outcomes are often NOT ENOUGH to sway those who are adverse to learning anything new.

Get as much training as you can, stash a good first aid kit in every pack and vehicle (as funding allows), and pick up a few good books for reference if TSHTF. ("Where there is no Doctor", "Medicine for Mountaineering", "Ditch Medicine", "Where there is no Dentist", etc... and just remember ... it's "informational-only".

 

[Longbow_06]

Re: Bail out bag medical

I have quick-clot gauze and Celox at hand, along with Israeli bandages galore. I wouldn't hesitate in using themk on a gun shot wound and worry about the consequeces later.

Friend of mine recently passed due to a negligent discharge. Pistol went off in his truck and cut his femoral artery. He was declared dead on the scene. If you've got it, use it.

Lee.

 

[Brushout]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Quick clot is like magic fairy dust. Sorta, just get some good training. Damn, you guys forgot the good ol' Tampons! If a dude has a hole with blood coming out, just shove a tampax in there. Just dont be around when the surgeon gets out of the OR fixing your "great idea"....I'm just sayin!

 

[dcskater602]

Re: Bail out bag medical

i didnt read the whole thread..

youll never get nailed for providing care to your own family. The issue is if you provide care for someone and they have a negative outcome, possibly because of the care that you gave. Good samaritan laws are in place. But if it is a scenario like the one we hope wont ever happen, i would think you would never need to worry about it. Identify yourself as an EMT or start providing advanced care procedures you could have a problem.. But for just first aid... Shit i think it is a responsibility of our citizens to provide whatever care they can to an injured person until the pros show up.

Ps. Ive been an EMT-Paramedic for 8 years combined.

As far as a medical kit. Good things to have.
Gauze: 10x30 trauma dressings, lots of 5x9 ABD pads, dont waste time with 4x4s or 2x2s. Thats for patch jobs. You need life saving stuff. Trauma dressings go directly on bleeding wounds. Apply pressure, lots
Kling: Gauze wrap basically. 2, 4, and 6 inch rolls. Several of each
Ace: ACE bandages are all around good for creating a pressure wrap. Use above kling and gauze or use for splinting, etc.
Cardboard Splints: bones break, sometimes there arent good materials around to splint with. But dont forget the old Boy Scouts newspaper trick

DUCT TAPE: Has multiple medical uses. Get yourself a little training. Do some research on puncture wounds to the thoracic/chest cavity. Bullet holes, stab wounds and other trauma to the chest can cause what is called a sucking chest wound. The negative pressure inside the chest cavity sucks in outside air. This air is trapped between the chest wall and the lung and can cause the lung to collapse. Duct tape goes over the hole in the chest. Dont forget to look for an exit wound. This patient needs immediate ALS level care and an OR.
Oral Glucose: Super cheap. Glucose paste. Important if you, or anyone you find has a diabetic emergency. If there Blood Sugar begins to plum-it, they will begin behaving like they are very drunk. Eventually they will become unresponsive. Early identification of the altered mental status and assisted administration of oral glucose can bring there blood sugar back up. Be warned, the body burns this pure glucose very very quickly. You need to find food for this patient soon once you get them back around. This 99 cent tube is life or death for an insulin dependant diabetic who becomes hypoglycemic.
Trauma shears: clothing needs cut
Tourniquet Arterial bleeding or uncontrolled bleeding to a limb can very quickly kill a human. Rule of thumb, take your big trauma dressings, apply pressure. If bleeding doesnt stop in 60-120 seconds or the gauze becomes saturated with blood. Move to a TOURNIQUET. Dont be scared, surgeons are fulling restoring limbs a whopping 6 hours after placement of a tourniquet.
My recommendation for this: Combat Application Tourniquet or C.A.T.

Hope this helps

I wont tell you to go take a class. The basic EMT class is a rather larger time commitment to complete and i dont believe it teaches you jack shit about emergency medical care. Most of what is learned by those guys is through experience on the street. Most basic first aid classes are a joke
There is however some excellent Battle medicine basics books out there. That will help you and at your pace

PM me if you have any questions or need any rescources.. Good luck

Bill

 

[branson1369]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Well I will jump right in and say this you need a good kit or you find yourself like I did a few weeks back as the RO of a 3 Gun Match and a very safe, highly skilled shooter (and my friend) had an AD into his foot. All went well with minnimal damge and he manned up throughout the process it was just one of those things. With a foot you keep the boot on and dial 911 and watch for shock.

Later doing an after action in my head I realized I did not have a trama kit with my gear and only a 1st aid kit in the SUV. Well if it had not been to his foot and a had hit a knee/artery or been bigger bore vs. 9mm fmj. I have now researched several and Cavalry Arms has a good kit with Celex (surf for cheaper rate then direct with them). I bought one and added it to a 1st aid kit in an old Corpman bag (old jarhead kit)which will be on my cart for 3 Gun and in my pack for sniper/tactical matches.

So whatever kit you get ensure its complete and with you as it is no good if it is not. My close call reminded me to ensure I reevaluated my prepration

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Bail out bag medical

regarding the providing care issue - even 1st responders, EMT etc., are required to ask the person they are responding to, if they WANT THEIR HELP, if the person is unconscious then it is understood that a person would want life saving treatment

a child is slightly different, and if the parent is present can become sticky situation


your own family you are good to go

so as medical responders, the habit is to assess the situation, then announce who you are, tell them what you do, and ASK DO THEY WANT YOUR ASSISTANCE - they say no, it's hands off; of course you can ask again and they may change their mind ...
if they cannot answer even a head nod no or yes is sufficient

my kit

SOF tourniquet
nasal airways kit
feminine pads
medical tape
kerlix rolls
body substance isolation (gloves, pocket mask)
hand sanitizer
3x9" petrolatum impregnated gauze for pentrating chest wounds

and 60 hours of NREMT certified 1st responder course

 

[chongoMT]

Re: Bail out bag medical

If you're willing to travel www.thevectorgroup.org can provide some good training. They have a really good group of instructors and you will walk away with enough skill to build your own IFAK and use it correctly.

 

[rickp]

Re: Bail out bag medical

In my kit I have

Gauze and more gauze
surgical scrub 2 or 3
2 scalpels
tweezers
Bandages (pressure and sterile)
Sling
Emergency Blanket (shock treatment)
Iodine q-tips and wipes
Alcohol
band aids (different sizes)
sting kit.
Tylenol
2 chest seals
saline solution and BIG syringe (for cleaning and washing)
Ace bandages
tourniquet
splint universal 2
tape
Pocket Mask for CPR
eye was
burn blanket
burn gel
Hot and Cold Packs
sun burn spray
3 antibiotic ointment
2 J tubes
piece of surgical tubing
gloves
scissors
in Iraq I would also have morphine self injectors
and in the process of getting a epinephrine self injector

I think that's it.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Just my two cents, and a comment in general...

If you are non military/non LEO, or have no other suitable means to get job related training, then join a VFD with a training officer that's on top of his game. You will easily/quickly aquire all the first-aid, adult/infant CPR, and first responders training you will ever need (and the credentials to use it)....along with a lot of other very useful training/skills like heavy tactical rescue, vehicle extrication, etc. In addition, I have several friends that went from the Fire Dept on into EMT, and serve a dual duty...just food for thought.

You get to serve your community honorably, and receive the training usually on your municipalities' dime.....

 

[kstraughen]

Re: Bail out bag medical

I currently work for a Fire Department and reciently passed the state Paramedic exam. It is great to be a paramedic at the FD. But unfortunetly with exceptions you are strickly Basic live support. If you are all alone with no means of transportation or aid, the outcome is predominently unsucessful.I have the utmost respect for our military medics and soldiers in all ranks. they do a great job. if you want togain knowledge get some books or survival guides.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Anything other than care from an MD in an ER is basic life support, in any given situation.

Thankfully tho', your Paramedic Exam wasn't graded on spelling capacity.

Just sayin'.......

 

[lrrifle]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Tripwire nailed it! Volunteer Fire Departments or Ambulance Services are a blessing to those they serve and for those involved in the service... not only would you get good training... you'd get the opportunity to use your training making a difference in your community! You know... "part of the solution, not part of the problem"!

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Bail out bag medical

Another aspect to fire/ems, for the non Mil/LEO, is the mental metal. After a few fully involved structure fires + rescue/body recovery, a few back country search and rescues, a few multiple MVA's on an interstate with carnage and body parts scattered all over the place....there isn't much domestic SHTF stuff that could rattle your cage.

Training is one thing, application under stress quite another.....