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"Balance the Equation" podcast and question about slings

cliffy110

Sergeant of the Hide
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 6, 2020
165
125
I'm going to tread carefully here because I am acutely aware that there a LOT of things I just don't know. I don't know what I don't know, right? I'm a scout rifle guy. I'm relatively porficient with a scout rifle and consider that to be the ultimate in "practical" riflecraft. Clearly however, this community's definition of "practical" is different than mine and I am not here to argue that.

Listening to your podcasts have been making me think about things I never had. I want to expand my definition of "practical" without sacrificing the speed and handiness of what I currently use. Right now, I'm looking at a class that will allow me to use my scout out to 600+ yards and see how things work out.

That's not actually the point of my post though. My point is that I'm genuinely curious about why the long range community has given up on shooting slings. In your latest podcast, you talk about real life time to engagement. How long does it take a rifleman to get from eyeballing a target to actual engagement? It is hard to simulate that in a competition because everything is staged to allow for tripods to be set up and you're carrying bags and other aids that might not represent a real world engagement.

The scout rifle community focuses very hard on this idea. The Ching and Rhodesian slings are intended to be rapid deployment shooting aids in addition to being functional carry straps. One can transition from standing to looped prone in a matter of seconds without removing a pack, setting up a tripod or getting bags into place. Both of those are actual loop slings that lock your rifle to your body nearly as effectively as an old school 1907 sling but are MUCH faster to get into.

Shooting slung prone however, puts your body into a very different position than I know you teach. Your body must be bladed several degrees off center for this position. Same is true of slung sitting. You can't be square to the target or you can't get your support hand under the forend. None of this though is more stable than shooting from a rest or a tripod. It is however, extremely fast.

The last scout rifle class I took in NM, we had two drills that you might find interesting. The first is Rifle Bounce. Shooter starts from standing and engages a pepper popper at 100, drop to any other shooting position and engage a pepper popper at 200. Switch to any other position and engage a target at 300. A good time is under 20 seconds. Standing, sitting and prone in 20 seconds.

The other drill is Rifle 10. That one starts out with a standard USPSA target at 300. On the timer, shooter shoots 2 from any position and then runs 25 yards and shoots two more. Run 25 yards and shoot 2 more. Run 25 and shoot 2 more. Run 25 and shoot two more but these have to be done from standing. Par time is 2 minutes. That's 300, 275, 250, 225 and 200 with 10 shots in 2 minutes. Deductions are made for misses and anything outside the A zone.

Clearly, this isn't long range shooting. But is it practical? Does it teach fundamentals? Both of those drills are next to impossible without a sling At what range does a sling become impractical? At what range does it not allow for enough stability to hit a target? My guess is that range is somewhere between 300 to 500 yards. Whatever that distance is, shooting out to that range would benefit from learning this technique but it isn't taught in the long range community. What is it that I'm missing?
 
Target sizes for one. At 200 yards a 6" target would be considered very large in any PRS type match.
 
Target sizes for one. At 200 yards a 6" target would be considered very large in any PRS type match.
Yup... I understand that. From a competitive view, you are absolutely correct. What about the practical side? Frank's podcast was really leaning toward exploring the practical side of things.

As I thought about this more, I think that even on the competitive side, maybe things like having stages set up with 25 (or more) yards of movement in a single stage might encourage more thought toward lighter, handier rifles. It might even encourage use of slings and "less than ideal" shooting positions. Just a thought dovetailing off the podcast.
 
I'm going to tread carefully here because I am acutely aware that there a LOT of things I just don't know. I don't know what I don't know, right? I'm a scout rifle guy. I'm relatively porficient with a scout rifle and consider that to be the ultimate in "practical" riflecraft. Clearly however, this community's definition of "practical" is different than mine and I am not here to argue that.

Listening to your podcasts have been making me think about things I never had. I want to expand my definition of "practical" without sacrificing the speed and handiness of what I currently use. Right now, I'm looking at a class that will allow me to use my scout out to 600+ yards and see how things work out.

That's not actually the point of my post though. My point is that I'm genuinely curious about why the long range community has given up on shooting slings. In your latest podcast, you talk about real life time to engagement. How long does it take a rifleman to get from eyeballing a target to actual engagement? It is hard to simulate that in a competition because everything is staged to allow for tripods to be set up and you're carrying bags and other aids that might not represent a real world engagement.

The scout rifle community focuses very hard on this idea. The Ching and Rhodesian slings are intended to be rapid deployment shooting aids in addition to being functional carry straps. One can transition from standing to looped prone in a matter of seconds without removing a pack, setting up a tripod or getting bags into place. Both of those are actual loop slings that lock your rifle to your body nearly as effectively as an old school 1907 sling but are MUCH faster to get into.

Shooting slung prone however, puts your body into a very different position than I know you teach. Your body must be bladed several degrees off center for this position. Same is true of slung sitting. You can't be square to the target or you can't get your support hand under the forend. None of this though is more stable than shooting from a rest or a tripod. It is however, extremely fast.

The last scout rifle class I took in NM, we had two drills that you might find interesting. The first is Rifle Bounce. Shooter starts from standing and engages a pepper popper at 100, drop to any other shooting position and engage a pepper popper at 200. Switch to any other position and engage a target at 300. A good time is under 20 seconds. Standing, sitting and prone in 20 seconds.

The other drill is Rifle 10. That one starts out with a standard USPSA target at 300. On the timer, shooter shoots 2 from any position and then runs 25 yards and shoots two more. Run 25 yards and shoot 2 more. Run 25 and shoot 2 more. Run 25 and shoot two more but these have to be done from standing. Par time is 2 minutes. That's 300, 275, 250, 225 and 200 with 10 shots in 2 minutes. Deductions are made for misses and anything outside the A zone.

Clearly, this isn't long range shooting. But is it practical? Does it teach fundamentals? Both of those drills are next to impossible without a sling At what range does a sling become impractical? At what range does it not allow for enough stability to hit a target? My guess is that range is somewhere between 300 to 500 yards. Whatever that distance is, shooting out to that range would benefit from learning this technique but it isn't taught in the long range community. What is it that I'm missing?

With the advent of things like extremely portable tripods, 2 and 3 extension bipods, bags with lightweight fill, and just general knowledge of building positions (one can just use their pack when they really need to be fast)…..

Sling shooting is almost a legacy skill. Unless purposely sought (some people still like shooting animals slung up or standing and such), there’s almost always a better option that available.
 
With the advent of things like extremely portable tripods, 2 and 3 extension bipods, bags with lightweight fill, and just general knowledge of building positions (one can just use their pack when they really need to be fast)…..

Sling shooting is almost a legacy skill. Unless purposely sought (some people still like shooting animals slung up or standing and such), there’s almost always a better option that available.

There are other contexts of practical rifle marksmanship in which it is completely impractical to be carrying "extremely portable" tripods and even a bipod. In fact, it's the most likely scenario for non-mil, non-LE precision rifle use

A two point sling can be used as a shooting aid, both as a hasty sling or as an arm loop sling, extremely quickly BUT you must be proficient in the fundamentals of sling use to
  1. Know which sling to buy that works as a patrol carry sling that can quickly transition to a shooting aid (Magpul MS2 is superb for this).
  2. Know how to set it up so that the transition is very fast (faster than even taking a pack off and using it for support.
The stabilizing effect of a sling pulling the rifle into your shoulder is invaluable and hard to understand until you use a sling as such.
 
There are other contexts of practical rifle marksmanship in which it is completely impractical to be carrying "extremely portable" tripods and even a bipod. In fact, it's the most likely scenario for non-mil, non-LE precision rifle use

A two point sling can be used as a shooting aid, both as a hasty sling or as an arm loop sling, extremely quickly BUT you must be proficient in the fundamentals of sling use to
  1. Know which sling to buy that works as a patrol carry sling that can quickly transition to a shooting aid (Magpul MS2 is superb for this).
  2. Know how to set it up so that the transition is very fast (faster than even taking a pack off and using it for support.
The stabilizing effect of a sling pulling the rifle into your shoulder is invaluable and hard to understand until you use a sling as such.

I shoot in most common scenarios in non work related capacity as well as work related.

Rarely is a sling used in either anymore. Sling instruction is by far the smallest block. No matter civilian or mil/le.

It’s a legacy skill and is fading. Like many other things.


Of course, you can choose to do it. Just like you can choose to mil range and such. But there’s better ways now.
 
I shoot in most common scenarios in non work related capacity as well as work related.

Rarely is a sling used in either anymore. Sling instruction is by far the smallest block. No matter civilian or mil/le.

It’s a legacy skill and is fading. Like many other things.


Of course, you can choose to do it. Just like you can choose to mil range and such. But there’s better ways now.

We'll agree to disagree
 
Not saying slings are useless but the are definitely a legacy skill. Modern technology and shooting skills all but negate the necessity of sling shooting but has never hurt to be a practiced skill.
 
I hear you but my reply would be to take a Modern Day Sniper class then report back.

The OP's context is practical riflery, not static precision marksmanship. There are plausible scenarios in which carrying all the "modern technology" that many seem to rely on heavily will make you stand out in a way that you don't want.
 
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I hear you but my reply would be to take a Modern Day Sniper class then report back.
They are teaching it. I took their advanced class and we spent a fair bit of time (maybe an hour and a half between instruction and shooting) using the sling to tighten up an already supported position - mainly off a tripod. That being said, while it reduced my wobble, the reticle settled further off target after a shot than without the sling. So I'm not a fan.
 
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They are teaching it. I took their advanced class and we spent a fair bit of time (maybe an hour and a half between instruction and shooting) using the sling to tighten up an already supported position - mainly off a tripod. That being said, while it reduced my wobble, the reticle settled further off target after a shot than without the sling. So I'm not a fan.

We briefly touched on it but we never actually used a sling. Most of us used a bag on top of the tripod
 
Good discussion. Thanks guys. I had not considered sling use to be a legacy skill, but maybe it is. I use a sling on a very regular basis and can't imagine not having one. However, most of my use is hunting in Central VA where ranges are almost exclusively inside 300 yards. Hunting to me is still hunting which is quite different from stand hunting or setting up a nest from which to glass for hours on end. To me, and presumably others who hunt mixed farmland, sling use is still very relevant.

I started this topic because of Frank's comments in his podcast about finding ways to make competitive shooting more relevant to practical field use. In observing long range shooting, the lack of sling use always struck me as the opposite of practical from my perspective on field use.
 
Good discussion. Thanks guys. I had not considered sling use to be a legacy skill, but maybe it is. I use a sling on a very regular basis and can't imagine not having one. However, most of my use is hunting in Central VA where ranges are almost exclusively inside 300 yards. Hunting to me is still hunting which is quite different from stand hunting or setting up a nest from which to glass for hours on end. To me, and presumably others who hunt mixed farmland, sling use is still very relevant.

I started this topic because of Frank's comments in his podcast about finding ways to make competitive shooting more relevant to practical field use. In observing long range shooting, the lack of sling use always struck me as the opposite of practical from my perspective on field use.

I think even legacy skills should be kept relevant. I keep a sling in my pack when shooting matches just in case there is a sling stage. The Rifles Only Carbine sling has been my favorite by far.